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William Maley

Ford News: Rumorpile: Next Ford Fiesta ST Could Get 3-Cylinder Turbo Power

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The current Ford Fiesta ST uses a 1.6L EcoBoost four-cylinder. But the next-generation Fiesta ST could be using a turbocharged three-cylinder.

“We’re seeing more and more of what we can do with the 1.0-litre engine in development and the signs are promising. It’s a great engine – it sounds brilliant and there’s loads of torque when the turbo comes on boost, so we’re looking into things for the next ST,” said Darren Palmer, Ford's head of small cars to Auto Express.

 

Currently, the most powerful version of the 1.0L EcoBoost three-cylinder produces 138 horsepower. But Ford has been experimenting with the engine to see how much power can be extracted. At the moment, the company has been able to get 202 horsepower.

“There’s still a huge demand for the ST – we’ve seen that with the current ST200. But we want to offer more, so expect more performance and efficiency,” said Palmer.

Source: Auto Express

 


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This isn't VW news...

Anyway, as long as they keep it quite powerful this thing will still be a blast to drive. I'm yet to drive one but I don't think I've read a bad thing about them.

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5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This isn't VW news...

Anyway, as long as they keep it quite powerful this thing will still be a blast to drive. I'm yet to drive one but I don't think I've read a bad thing about them.

Quite tempted buy the current model myself.

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I sawr one the other day in that green.  Sweet little runner.

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If you note his remarks, he does not state that it would be 1.0L.  

Fact is, it would be much bigger.  And fewer cylinders is always better, assuming similar displacements.

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44 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

If you note his remarks, he does not state that it would be 1.0L.  

Fact is, it would be much bigger.  And fewer cylinders is always better, assuming similar displacements.

For fuel economy / internal friction.... sure. Not always on balance and revving. (i.e. a 3.0 liter V8 will be smoother and rev faster than a 3.0 liter 4-cylinder assuming the same valvetrain setup) 

However, even the 5-cylinder engines I've driven have been fairly disappointing on that front (Volvo excepted). All the fuel economy of a V6 with all the power of a N/A 4-cylinder. 

That said.... I do think the 1.0 Ecoboost is the superior engine in the Fiesta. It's not a smooth as the 4-cylinder, but it has a fun growl. 

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Compare a 1.5L I4 and I3,

I3 packages far smaller and easier

I3 weighs far less

I3 has far less friction and better FE

I3 has much bigger bore, which mostly benefits larger valves and more airflow

I3 GTDI will rev faster and just as smooth

I3 Structure is stronger (length of crank, gearbox, etc.)

 

A 1.0L works harder due to less power, and is a bit more NVH, but that cancels out when you have similar displacements/power

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47 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Compare a 1.5L I4 and I3,

 

I3 packages far smaller and easier

 

I3 weighs far less

 

I3 has far less friction and better FE

 

I3 has much bigger bore, which mostly benefits larger valves and more airflow

 

I3 GTDI will rev faster and just as smooth

 

I3 Structure is stronger (length of crank, gearbox, etc.)

 

 

 

A 1.0L works harder due to less power, and is a bit more NVH, but that cancels out when you have similar displacements/power

 

I don't disagree with most of those.  I took issue with the "always". 

Assuming all else equal on an I4 and I3, the 3 won't be as smooth, simple mathematical balance dictates that. Revving faster is also only a maybe... with the bigger bores comes more mass moving in each cylinder. Each time one of those three chunks of mass have to slow down, stop, and change direction there is inertia to overcome.  This is an oversimplification, but each piston will weigh 1/3rd more than in an I-4 (again, all else being equal).  While the total number of piston direction changes happens more often in an I4, the mass of each of those pistons is lower. 

This is born out historically...generally small V8s rev better than big V6es. Small V6es rev better than big I4s. 

I like the I-3. I think it has a strong future ahead.... I'm just reluctant to attribute things to it that aren't really there. 

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4 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

Humming along on dyno's at the moment.

Well you better get over there to manually shift through all 10 speeds on that DCT... :P

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3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't disagree with most of those.  I took issue with the "always". 

Assuming all else equal on an I4 and I3, the 3 won't be as smooth, simple mathematical balance dictates that. Revving faster is also only a maybe... with the bigger bores comes more mass moving in each cylinder. Each time one of those three chunks of mass have to slow down, stop, and change direction there is inertia to overcome.  This is an oversimplification, but each piston will weigh 1/3rd more than in an I-4 (again, all else being equal).  While the total number of piston direction changes happens more often in an I4, the mass of each of those pistons is lower. 

This is born out historically...generally small V8s rev better than big V6es. Small V6es rev better than big I4s. 

I like the I-3. I think it has a strong future ahead.... I'm just reluctant to attribute things to it that aren't really there. 

There are balance tricks to mitigate it, without adding weight and extensive engineering. You counter externally, and balance as a system, including the mounts.  That's what they did with the 1.0L.   But I am sure you knew that.  But again, with boosted engines, they are both quieter and smoother due to not need to rev.  In general.  Most reviews of the 1.0L praised it's smoothness, quick revving and growl.  

So again, on a same displacement comparison, 

smoothness will be similar, as delivered.

It will be rev happy, even with the bigger bore, and it is stroke that impacts that more than bore size.

and the growl will be even better, due to bigger bore and chamber.

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All of those tricks mean that they aren't equal... which was precisely my point.... all else being equal... an I4 will be better balanced and smoother than an I3.  I'm not discouraging the use of those tricks either... Buick used a few of them in the Encore and it's noticeable that they didn't make it into the Trax.

I'm very precise with my statements.

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Tricks?  It’s called balancing a motor.  Something every motor should and does do.  They just approach it different with the I3.  That’s not a ‘trick’ when you tune a system properly, as a system. 

Precise with your words?

Not in this case.

But I think we are both getting a bit mixed up here in our terms. Let’s review:

 An I3 actually vibrates less than an I4, because there is no piston pairing, so some might call it smoother than an I4, especially at higher rpm.  An I4 is actually a bit smoother, but vibrates  more at higher RPM, due to the piston pairing and phasing at 180deg.  An I6 is also paired, but benefits from perfect phase balance of 120.  The I3 has a 240 phase and looks like a Y viewed at the end of the crank. That is closer to an I6 in appearance, than an I4 at 180. And  in total, it’s about counterweight placement and their  phasing.  Or more specifically, the conservation of momentum, or how the piston/rod counterweight is configured to counter the reciprocating and rotating mass.

And although a powertrain design engineer analyst by trade and certainly know a thing or two about what I speak, I am too humble to state I use precise words. I am human after all, and mistakes happen.

Edited by Wings4Life

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2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

Humming along on dyno's at the moment.

It's only a fact if it is provable. Otherwise you sound like the other guy who overused that word. 

Wanna show us some inside news on the new motor?!? NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE?!?(not being a smartass but I realize this cannot be done..so maybe that is being a smartass.. well I'm just jokin around. )

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Yes.. a trick. Active motor mounts are tricks used to hide/tame engine imbalance. So are counter rotating balance shafts. So is active noise cancellation. 

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6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It's only a fact if it is provable. Otherwise you sound like the other guy who overused that word. 

Wanna show us some inside news on the new motor?!? NEVER BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE?!?(not being a smartass but I realize this cannot be done..so maybe that is being a smartass.. well I'm just jokin around. )

The forum world was busy discussing the new and larger I3 and I4 family from Ford recently, complete with a code project name.  I assumed everyone heard about it. hence my subtle reference to it.  Perhaps you have not heard it here.  

And normally I would share what I can, but lately, with all the down-talking and rudeness around here, I would rather not.  Why would I.

Thanks

Edited by Wings4Life

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Well, I've heard some of the news from friends at Ford, but I always love to learn more....(and they can only tell me so much)

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Guest Wings on cell phone
3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes.. a trick. Active motor mounts are tricks used to hide/tame engine imbalance. So are counter rotating balance shafts. So is active noise cancellation. 

None of which is used with the 1.0l.

hence no tricks

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3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We've been talking engines...was i rude to an engine?

Did someone suggest you have been rude.

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I'm all for mechanical entertainment.  I was high on the 1.0 EB in the Fiesta until I realized Ford would only pair it with a car that has plastic wheel covers and no FOG LIGHTS.  Who does that?

 

Local dealer has a black Focus hatch with the 1.0L and stick on the lot.  Hmmm...

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