December 2016: General Motors Co.

[cp-the-nerd]

They're going to replace the ATS entirely in the next 2 years. Hopefully it'll use the exterior design language from the Escala concept.

GM has taken a really weird approach to Cadillac refreshes all the way back to the first gen CTS. There has never been a significant midcycle revision to design or interior even though those are the biggest impact on sales, it's always mundane tweaks like changing the grille.

The 2017 CTS is supposedly "refreshed." It has a new grille design and new dual exhaust appearance, but it's barely noticeable even if you're looking for it.

[oldshurst442]

29 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Semantics aside, the ATS is still essentially five years old and most definitely needs an update at this point. 

 

Sorry Casa but it has not been six years but again, it matters not in the long run. Five years in this market is too long without a proper update IMO. 

In reality...the ATS and the CT#  successor to the ATS and all other sub ATS models JDN wants to introduce need to be re-evaluated...

Cadillac needs volume. I get that.

Cadillac also needs prestige and models that exude prestige. They dont need cars that are priced at mid level Buick prices(or worse in thinking that those same prices are high Chevy prices) and they dont need super high priced cars either just yet. What they do need is what Casa does mention all the time...

Cadillac needs more variants to what they already have and possibly cars that are at the cheapest end of the spectrum, the very lowest they should go, is at the ATS level, but better thought out...and I guess the CT# replacement does just that. Not too many SUVs/CUVs more, but enough to satisfy the demand for them, which should satisfy Cadillac coffers in the volumes they seek...

They need to sweat out the details.

THIS is the area that needs the MOST attention.

The details that make a top tier luxury car maker...

Paint jobs, dealer service, interior trim hardware, new and fresh ideas that re-invent luxury for the 21st century...

The Escala 3 piece suit interior and trunk material is exactly that thought process that Cadillac needs to continue on and then will not only a sub ATS model will be better praised, but a supercar too...

Cadillac also needs to start leading again.

A supercar is only following in the footsteps of...

 Take your pic...

Acura...

Lexus...

Audi...

Acura had the NSX...lasted only 1 generation. At least it survived a decade plus. It took an eternity to bring it back. They did it right. But will this one last a decade? At least the NSX 1st gen DEFINED what ALL Acuras were to be...will generation 2 have the same effect?

Lexus and the LFA...

Great car. Over thought. Over engineered. Over budgeted. Over hyped. Great engine. No balls to re-use the engine. Killed off quicker than the XLR and forgotten by the public and Lexus that it ever existed.

Audi...and the R8.

Lamborghini all over this car but Audi was smart enough to Audi-fy it substantially...and what a car the 1st gen was...

Im not so sure the 2nd generation will see the same amount of greatness and reverence...

I see a pattern here. I dont want that pattern to be repeated by Cadillac...and Cadillac already failed with 1 attempt...

I just had to plug away again, this time on a slightly different angle. A slight twist in thinking but same message along the same lines...

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Semantics aside, the ATS is still essentially five years old and most definitely needs an update at this point. 

 

Sorry Casa but it has not been six years but again, it matters not in the long run. Five years in this market is too long without a proper update IMO. 

Didn't it get a refresh in 2015? or was it 2016? I know it was mild but personally I loved the replacement of the wreath with the crest in the grill. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

That part alone is worth 1000 upvotes!!!

Hahaha thanks!

[David]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

If you read the link.. which you didn't.. that's how long the car has been on sale which was 6 months after it's showing to the press. Hence, the half of a year. JABRONI!

Yes we are all Jabroni's in one way or another and the sarcasm is lost again!

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 1/6/2017 at 0:44 PM, ccap41 said:

 

You need better maths(or reading skillz).

"Cadillac debuted the ATS to the press in the United States in January 2012, placed the ATS into production in July 2012 and began selling the ATS in the United States in August 2012 as a 2013 model. GM began selling the ATS in China in November 2013. For the 2016 model year, Cadillac sells the ATS in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Europe, the Middle East, China, Japan, and South Korea."

2017-2012 = __  I'll leave that blank for you and your smartass-ness to fill in.

Also, less than a week ago people we still saying the same thing that the ATS needs a refresh, in 2016. The call for a refresh didn't happen only 6 days ago.

In my younger years I used to dog little bitches just for sport.. I love arguing with so-called enthusiasts because they always think they kno everything.. and some do.. but they forget the reality of being an enthusiast.. We see things normally before the public does.. and since when is WIKIPEDIA the end all be all of knowledge. Ahhhh.. the continuous downturn of WORLD education.. thus.. in 12 days we will see Donald Trump take the big chair. 

anyway.. I said, exactly this: " It was being shown in 2011."

Key word is SHOWN... I remember.. as an enthusiast.. U kno the guys and gals that look at every bit of the Web, streets, and proving grounds.. to see what's coming... seeing the ATS as far back as SEPTEMBER 2011. It started as a mule AUTOBLOG LINK.. hell earlier than that we saw camo cars running around in March 2011 from C&D MARCH 20EFFIN11 LINK

Around Oct 2011 We started seeing renderings based on those Mules... which wasn't hard to do considering the Cadillac design language.. CLASSIC CADILLAC LINK  and even slightly off ones...GM AUTHOR LINK.. by Summer 2011 GM itself was putting out profile shots.. STILL.. being SHOWN in 2011, Here it is from CAR AND DRIVER LINK . Meaning we were SEEING THE CAR.. thus its age began there. It hit the lots in 2012.. Sept to be precise with 611 units.  U see??? I didn't go to Wiki at all to get this info. 

again.. from 2011 to 2017... is pretty much 6 years for people to get used to seeing the same car.. with almost ZERO changes in appearance. 

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 1/6/2017 at 1:40 PM, surreal1272 said:

Semantics aside, the ATS is still essentially five years old and most definitely needs an update at this point. 

 

Sorry Casa but it has not been six years but again, it matters not in the long run. Five years in this market is too long without a proper update IMO. 

Oh no.. I agree that car is only 5 MODEL YEARS OLD.. a 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and now 2017.. but alas.. the car was being shown as far back as 2011. Meaning we've been seeing the same old car for 6 years. Thats all I was saying.. 

[Robert Hall]

21 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Oh no.. I agree that car is only 5 MODEL YEARS OLD.. a 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, and now 2017.. but alas.. the car was being shown as far back as 2011. Meaning we've been seeing the same old car for 6 years. Thats all I was saying.. 

Which is consistent with 21st century Cadillac model cycles..the 1st gen CTS lasted 5 model years, the 2nd gen 7 model years, the 3rd gen Escalade 8 model years, etc with no meaningful MCEs...  

[Drew Dowdell]

regardless of the number of year it's been out... it could have been out 1 year and like the malibu needed a refresh right at launch.  The ATS needs the refresh now. Period.

[Cmicasa the Great]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

regardless of the number of year it's been out... it could have been out 1 year and like the malibu needed a refresh right at launch.  The ATS needs the refresh now. Period.

agreed. and truthfully they could simply give it the more aggressive appearance package until the CT3(?) shows up. 

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

In my younger years I used to dog little bitches just for sport.. I love arguing with so-called enthusiasts because they always think they kno everything.. and some do.. but they forget the reality of being an enthusiast.. We see things normally before the public does.. and since when is WIKIPEDIA the end all be all of knowledge. Ahhhh.. the continuous downturn of WORLD education.. thus.. in 12 days we will see Donald Trump take the big chair. 

anyway.. I said, exactly this: " It was being shown in 2011."

Key word is SHOWN... I remember.. as an enthusiast.. U kno the guys and gals that look at every bit of the Web, streets, and proving grounds.. to see what's coming... seeing the ATS as far back as SEPTEMBER 2011. It started as a mule AUTOBLOG LINK.. hell earlier than that we saw camo cars running around in March 2011 from C&D MARCH 20EFFIN11 LINK

Around Oct 2011 We started seeing renderings based on those Mules... which wasn't hard to do considering the Cadillac design language.. CLASSIC CADILLAC LINK  and even slightly off ones...GM AUTHOR LINK.. by Summer 2011 GM itself was putting out profile shots.. STILL.. being SHOWN in 2011, Here it is from CAR AND DRIVER LINK . Meaning we were SEEING THE CAR.. thus its age began there. It hit the lots in 2012.. Sept to be precise with 611 units.  U see??? I didn't go to Wiki at all to get this info. 

again.. from 2011 to 2017... is pretty much 6 years for people to get used to seeing the same car.. with almost ZERO changes in appearance. 

 

You're saying cars are tested before they are shown publicly? YA DONT SAY!! So add 1 year to everything ever made, duh. I'm not stupid nor is anybody else here when it comes to that. That also makes the BMW, Merc, and Audi a year older as well. So the F30/31 3 Series has also been around since 2011(2009 if you want to include spy shots of test vehicles..F30 Test Mule ) and still does everything better than the ATS(okay, marginally worse "dynamics" ).. excuses? But But But.. GM.. Dude, I love the ATS. I'm looking at buying an ATS. I'm just not blind that it isn't the "best" all around car in the class and it hasn't been around as long as it's all around superior competition and that doesn't make me want it any less either.

[Cmicasa the Great]

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You're saying cars are tested before they are shown publicly? YA DONT SAY!! So add 1 year to everything ever made, duh. I'm not stupid nor is anybody else here when it comes to that. That also makes the BMW, Merc, and Audi a year older as well. So the F30/31 3 Series has also been around since 2011(2009 if you want to include spy shots of test vehicles..F30 Test Mule ) and still does everything better than the ATS(okay, marginally worse "dynamics" ).. excuses? But But But.. GM.. Dude, I love the ATS. I'm looking at buying an ATS. I'm just not blind that it isn't the "best" all around car in the class and it hasn't been around as long as it's all around superior competition and that doesn't make me want it any less either.

WTF does have to do with the fact that the original discussion was about the ATS being outdated now in terms of styling.. with no real updates since FIRST SHOWN back in 2011? Where are the EXCUSES U speak of??? I openly admit that the ATS needs to be updated. The rest... Eff off.

[ccap41]

14 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

WTF does have to do with the fact that the original discussion was about the ATS being outdated now in terms of styling.. with no real updates since FIRST SHOWN back in 2011? Where are the EXCUSES U speak of??? I openly admit that the ATS needs to be updated. The rest... Eff off.

I'm not the one making excuses for the ATS. You are. It wasn't just about styling. it was about being outdated as a whole. If the ATS's styling is dated then were does the CTS and CT6 stand because to the ignorance nobody will tell the difference. I've even asked the gf and the only real thing she pointed out without analyzing the pictures was the headlights on the CT6 compared to the CTS and ATS.

My point, if the ATS has "been around" since 2011 and the BMW even earlier yet they made a better product all around.. no wonder we've been calling for updates. It was nearly half-assed if it needed the updates so quickly into a product cycle. Nobody is calling for necessary updates for the F30s and it's even older.

[Cmicasa the Great]

58 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'm not the one making excuses for the ATS. You are. It wasn't just about styling. it was about being outdated as a whole. If the ATS's styling is dated then were does the CTS and CT6 stand because to the ignorance nobody will tell the difference. I've even asked the gf and the only real thing she pointed out without analyzing the pictures was the headlights on the CT6 compared to the CTS and ATS.

My point, if the ATS has "been around" since 2011 and the BMW even earlier yet they made a better product all around.. no wonder we've been calling for updates. It was nearly half-assed if it needed the updates so quickly into a product cycle. Nobody is calling for necessary updates for the F30s and it's even older.

Everyone I kno is calling for updates to the 3series... the saving grace for it is that is the GO TO small luxo vehicle.. hell it started the segment. Second... I'm not making any excuses for teh ATS. I have on millions of occasions said that GM should update the car.. even citing that the Camaro had a more up to date user interface and interior design than the ATS.. not to mention plenty of times saying that the exterior needed to be essentially the VSeries looks or at the very least the Premium Performance look. The Engines are technically fine.. and line up still against the competition. The chassis is still top of the segment. The issue with the ATS really remains that the rear room is a bit cramped compared to competition.. Anyone watching can see that the next ATS (CT3?) will most likely go up to the size of the old CTS or at the very least the size of the ATS-L in China.

Lastly.. GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE... and stop trying to convince anyone U have a Girl Friend.

[ccap41]

19 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Everyone I kno is calling for updates to the 3series... the saving grace for it is that is the GO TO small luxo vehicle.. hell it started the segment. Second... I'm not making any excuses for teh ATS. I have on millions of occasions said that GM should update the car.. even citing that the Camaro had a more up to date user interface and interior design than the ATS.. not to mention plenty of times saying that the exterior needed to be essentially the VSeries looks or at the very least the Premium Performance look. The Engines are technically fine.. and line up still against the competition. The chassis is still top of the segment. The issue with the ATS really remains that the rear room is a bit cramped compared to competition.. Anyone watching can see that the next ATS (CT3?) will most likely go up to the size of the old CTS or at the very least the size of the ATS-L in China.

Lastly.. GET THE f@#k OUTTA HERE... and stop trying to convince anyone U have a Girl Friend.

All of us here would fckn love for the base(or lesser trims) to be styled like the V Series. I just think that's too aggressive to the masses.. I don't think the car needs to grow any. They just need to package it better as it was within an inch of every exterior measurement of the 3 Series.

LOL

 

[Cmicasa the Great]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

All of us here would fckn love for the base(or lesser trims) to be styled like the V Series. I just think that's too aggressive to the masses.. I don't think the car needs to grow any. They just need to package it better as it was within an inch of every exterior measurement of the 3 Series.

LOL

 

Hence me saying that this would be perfect for the time being 

ATS-L stretches its wheelbase to 112.5 inches and its overall length to 186 inches

[smk4565]

In regards to an XLR or any SL competitor, the SL only sells about 4,000 cars a year in the USA, and it is the only car in the segment.  It is too small a segment for Cadillac to go into, and the SL would just beat it again anyway, just as it put the XK and SC430 out of production.  

I think Cadillac would be better served with a roadster at the price point of an SLK or Z4,  use turbo 4 and turbo V6 engines keep it to like $50-70k in price.  They could probably use Alpha or the Vette chassis.   Then if they did a super car at $150,000 it would be totally far apart in price and performance.

ATS and CTS need all turbo line ups and new interiors.

Cadillac needs crossovers, and they needs lots of them, and they needed them yesterday.

[Suaviloquent]

The thing is with the competition, they have a lot of built up brand and the inertia it carries.

Cadillac could use a product like that. But they would have to support it and keep it relevant, regardless of the means and regardless of the price. And hyper mentioned that already, the way the Corvette has been protected...

It could be a one and done deal like the Ford GT. But that car got a new gen for 2017 simply because of the existence of the brand and what that brand did 50 years prior, and was able to repeat again. And from the looks alone, they have knocked it out of the park there. But see, that's a FORD. Not a Lincoln. And Lincoln will never ask for its own exotic. It's just not what the brand is about.

And with the Corvette being positioned to be able to slay supercars, hang with hypercars in its most extereme varitants, and have the interior now passable for a car of that price considering the potential performance, how could Cadillac improve performance further? And how much more can they go further even by doing that?

By reducing conventional materials in the platform with their new mixed material approach, yes, plus carbon fibre composites, additive manufacturing, yes.

But the timing, oh the timing. The El Miraj came out a few years back, and really, that car with a dumbed down interior plus production mirrors and wheels was something truly right in the moment, but it was a preposterous product to even consider worth building.

Cadillac is still vaguely remembered by some folk as a brand that at one time had it all. As in, they were the standard of the world in a very vague sense and only in what they made then, but like existing in a vacuum, a distillation of the American idea of a flash of automotive wealth. The big, bad, luxo sedan. The new money and millenials, their only exposure to Cadillac is the dog years and now very recent signs of life.

 

Not much really to sell a supercar or hypercar off of I am afraid. And really, I think GM has something going right with the Corvette. For Cadillac to be its own brand, it needs to make its own cars. And it has to live with the contradiction very much in place at GM with the Corvette and other supercars already. That a competing car from a far less upmarket nameplate can offer atleast 99% of the performance for a significantly less price.

The only car that I think the Corvette can't touch is the Viper ACR. And that car is a track animal, purpose built to only pummel the driver and the track into submission. The Cadillac cannot become a silk or tweed lined version of that in order to conquer the Corvette.

 

 

[oldshurst442]

The way I figure it with cars like a small in size and stature like the ATS, a small in size Corvette-like Cadillac, a sub-ATS model which would be even smaller in size and stature to the ATS...and so forth and so forth...

You see, I like Buddy Holly. I LOVE him in fact. l Love his music.

I don't want him to look like a liar all these years ago when he said his love is bigger than a Cadillac. And he wants to show it when his love interest drives him back.

 

So...Im gonna tell you how its gotta be...

BIG CADILLAC CARS...full of PRESTIGE. No...NO SMALL CADILLAC CARS. THOSE SUCK!