Jump to content
William Maley

BMW News: BMW's M Division Believes Manual and Dual-Clutch Transmissions Are Coming To An End

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The CTS V is a sublime automobile indeed...

You could have driven everything on the list and not understood what you were driving...which I do not think is the case. You seem to have a reasonably good eye for cars, and I trust your judgement on them.

 

Not understood what I was driving? I don't even know how to answer that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Not understood what I was driving? I don't even know how to answer that.

That was not an accusation...I was saying that you could have been clueless but we're not. Sorry, thought my post was more clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Frisky Dingo said:

 

Considering what I do for a living, that's an incredibly daft statement. Which shouldn't surprise me.

Since I have no idea what you do, how is it daft if someone does not know what you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/29/2017 at 9:41 AM, Cmicasa the Great said:

It, as per my experience, depends on how one drives these vehicles from the git. I bet good money that U can take my Aline "14 Impala" and drive her after U've just driven another '14 with similar miles on the ODO and believe that U are shifting two totally different cars. That GM transmissions LEARN your driving style is not a myth in my opinion. There is no way a driver in one of them for an hour or a day can claim that the tranny is one way or another over the long run. The only real tune(out) needed in some GM trannies is the 1-4 (CAGS) program in manuals for enthusiastic driving. 

You're talking to someone with experience tuning GM transmissions (including the 6T70 used by the 2014 Impala), what you said is incorrect.

While the transmissions do have a "learning algorithm," it does not affect shift points. It's really pretty underwhelming when you understand it, but it mostly affects shift feel.

The transmission shifts based on predetermined tables of throttle versus speed, written by engineers overseen by beancounters. They are not subject to change. Some GM performance automatics will temporarily switch to a more aggressive dormant shift table when driven hard, but that's the extent of it.

If a stock CTS-V driving 60 mph will downshift from 8th gear to 6th with 20% throttle, it will do the same thing after 5 different owners and 150,000 miles.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2017 at 11:25 PM, cp-the-nerd said:

You're talking to someone with experience tuning GM transmissions (including the 6T70 used by the 2014 Impala), what you said is incorrect.

While the transmissions do have a "learning algorithm," it does not affect shift points. It's really pretty underwhelming when you understand it, but it mostly affects shift feel.

The transmission shifts based on predetermined tables of throttle versus speed, written by engineers overseen by beancounters. They are not subject to change. Some GM performance automatics will temporarily switch to a more aggressive dormant shift table when driven hard, but that's the extent of it.

If a stock CTS-V driving 60 mph will downshift from 8th gear to 6th with 20% throttle, it will do the same thing after 5 different owners and 150,000 miles.

Well.. maybe I just drive too damn AGGRESSIVE.. all the time.. in all the cars I drive, which these days.. thankfully are all GM i70mfl.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/30/2017 at 11:25 PM, cp-the-nerd said:

You're talking to someone with experience tuning GM transmissions (including the 6T70 used by the 2014 Impala), what you said is incorrect.

While the transmissions do have a "learning algorithm," it does not affect shift points. It's really pretty underwhelming when you understand it, but it mostly affects shift feel.

The transmission shifts based on predetermined tables of throttle versus speed, written by engineers overseen by beancounters. They are not subject to change. Some GM performance automatics will temporarily switch to a more aggressive dormant shift table when driven hard, but that's the extent of it.

If a stock CTS-V driving 60 mph will downshift from 8th gear to 6th with 20% throttle, it will do the same thing after 5 different owners and 150,000 miles.

Honest question:

The 5-speed auto in my '04 CTS did seem to adjust to my driving pattern when it was in sport mode.  If I put it in sport and drove normally, it would hold a gear a bit longer before shifting, but otherwise drove normally. If I was in sport mode and being very aggressive, it would hold a lower gear longer even after I let off the gas..... if I calmed down, then it would go back to normal sport mode.... but it always took a few minutes of driving before it did.  I realize that it is not the memory that @Cmicasa the Great was talking about, but the transmission did seem to adjust to variations in driving more distinctly.   I will say that I have yet to experience a transmission with that level of variation in attitude since then because just after that model, everyone went to paddle shifters and the sport-automatic modes don't seem to be as aggressive. Did I imagine it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Honest question:

The 5-speed auto in my '04 CTS did seem to adjust to my driving pattern when it was in sport mode.  If I put it in sport and drove normally, it would hold a gear a bit longer before shifting, but otherwise drove normally. If I was in sport mode and being very aggressive, it would hold a lower gear longer even after I let off the gas..... if I calmed down, then it would go back to normal sport mode.... but it always took a few minutes of driving before it did.  I realize that it is not the memory that @Cmicasa the Great was talking about, but the transmission did seem to adjust to variations in driving more distinctly.   I will say that I have yet to experience a transmission with that level of variation in attitude since then because just after that model, everyone went to paddle shifters and the sport-automatic modes don't seem to be as aggressive. Did I imagine it?

I do not think you did as I also have noticed the change since the first CTS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Honest question:

The 5-speed auto in my '04 CTS did seem to adjust to my driving pattern when it was in sport mode.  If I put it in sport and drove normally, it would hold a gear a bit longer before shifting, but otherwise drove normally. If I was in sport mode and being very aggressive, it would hold a lower gear longer even after I let off the gas..... if I calmed down, then it would go back to normal sport mode.... but it always took a few minutes of driving before it did.  I realize that it is not the memory that @Cmicasa the Great was talking about, but the transmission did seem to adjust to variations in driving more distinctly.   I will say that I have yet to experience a transmission with that level of variation in attitude since then because just after that model, everyone went to paddle shifters and the sport-automatic modes don't seem to be as aggressive. Did I imagine it?

Cadillac automatics have additional responses to driver input. For example, many GM performance cars in sport mode automatically downshift when the computer senses steering input going through a sweeping turn. Like I said in my other post, aggressive driving can trigger different things as well.

I don't know all the ins and outs of GM performance progamming, so I can't give a complete answer. I just know that the shift tables and responses to input are written in stone unless a tune is applied.

To give a brief idea of what's in the TCM, all GM 6-speeds I've looked at had 3 separate automatic shift tables not counting the paddle shifters or limp mode. One of them is standard driving mode, one is for cruise control, and the third is sport mode (and possibly tow/haul mode for trucks). In my Malibu, sport mode was permanently dormant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Cadillac automatics have additional responses to driver input. For example, many GM performance cars in sport mode automatically downshift when the computer senses steering input going through a sweeping turn. Like I said in my other post, aggressive driving can trigger different things as well.

I don't know all the ins and outs of GM performance progamming, so I can't give a complete answer. I just know that the shift tables and responses to input are written in stone unless a tune is applied.

To give a brief idea of what's in the TCM, all GM 6-speeds I've looked at had 3 separate automatic shift tables not counting the paddle shifters or limp mode. One of them is standard driving mode, one is for cruise control, and the third is sport mode (and possibly tow/haul mode for trucks). In my Malibu, sport mode was permanently dormant.

Interesting, so to flash a transmission in the Malibu, all one would have to do is wake up sport mode?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Cadillac automatics have additional responses to driver input. For example, many GM performance cars in sport mode automatically downshift when the computer senses steering input going through a sweeping turn. Like I said in my other post, aggressive driving can trigger different things as well.

I don't know all the ins and outs of GM performance progamming, so I can't give a complete answer. I just know that the shift tables and responses to input are written in stone unless a tune is applied.

To give a brief idea of what's in the TCM, all GM 6-speeds I've looked at had 3 separate automatic shift tables not counting the paddle shifters or limp mode. One of them is standard driving mode, one is for cruise control, and the third is sport mode (and possibly tow/haul mode for trucks). In my Malibu, sport mode was permanently dormant.

Cool to know. Like I said, the sport mode in that 5-speed was extra aggressive when pushed hard, sport mode in more recent transmissions don't have such a drastic difference in mode... Even the Cadillacs.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Interesting, so to flash a transmission in the Malibu, all one would have to do is wake up sport mode?

No. All three shift tables in the Malibu were garbage and I rewrote standard and cruise control from scratch. I attempted to assign the sport mode to something so I could have regular, cruise, and sport depending on my input, but I gave up after a half dozen failed attempts.

After that failed, I created a compromised regular/sport mode, the car drove like a dream on that shift pattern so I had no complaints other than I wanted a stick shift.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Cool to know. Like I said, the sport mode in that 5-speed was extra aggressive when pushed hard, sport mode in more recent transmissions don't have such a drastic difference in mode... Even the Cadillacs.

I tried finding a gen 1 CTS stock tune to show you screen shots, but apparently the 5-speed automatic isn't supported by HPTuners, so the TCM appears blank.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting...Would love to flash a car like that.  I was going to get a tune for the DSG in my 2015 TDI Jetta but ended up selling ti back to VW several weeks ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

I tried finding a gen 1 CTS stock tune to show you screen shots, but apparently the 5-speed automatic isn't supported by HPTuners, so the TCM appears blank.

It's fine. I'm not sure I'd even know what I was looking at anyway. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

It's fine. I'm not sure I'd even know what I was looking at anyway. 

...so what are you and Albert looking at as your next vehicle? Sounds like you might not mind a performance vehicle of sorts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

...so what are you and Albert looking at as your next vehicle? Sounds like you might not mind a performance vehicle of sorts.

Well, that's going to be a ways off I think. I'm stuck where I am for now due to job uncertainties.  I still want an Avalanche or Escalade EXT though there may be business reasons to lease a truck for me......For him, probably move him to a Jeep GC or Durango once we have some stability... I just won't mention the Hemi under the hood when I pick one out. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Well, that's going to be a ways off I think. I'm stuck where I am for now due to job uncertainties.  I still want an Avalanche or Escalade EXT though there may be business reasons to lease a truck for me......For him, probably move him to a Jeep GC or Durango once we have some stability... I just won't mention the Hemi under the hood when I pick one out. 

I am not real happy with you (or un-happy for that matter!).  You and 2QuickZ's suggested trying the Hemi/auto combo...After driving a V8 300 I think really bad (but really good!) things every time I pass a Challenger, Charger, or V8 300 on the highway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, cp-the-nerd said:

Cadillac automatics have additional responses to driver input. For example, many GM performance cars in sport mode automatically downshift when the computer senses steering input going through a sweeping turn. Like I said in my other post, aggressive driving can trigger different things as well.
 

In the case of a 2007 SRX V8 in Sport Mode, I seem to invoke Performance Algorithm Shifting quite frequently while merging on highways.  The triggers are likely accelerator pedal movement characteristics and accelerometer data.  Once PAS mode is engaged, it won't upshift even when the accelerator is released; this enables a quicker response when the driver gets back on the throttle to navigate around slower traffic or pull out of a sharp corner. 

Edited by KevinW
Rephrasing for clarity
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, KevinW said:

In Sport Mode, I seem to invoke Performance Algorithm Shifting quite frequently while merging on highways, in the case of a 2007 SRX V8.  The triggers are likely accelerator pedal movement characteristics and accelerometer data.  Once PAS mode is engaged, it won't upshift even when the accelerator is released; this enables a quicker response when the driver gets back on the throttle to navigate around slower traffic or pull out of a sharp corner. 

I believe that's the case, but I haven't been able to find the parameters responsible for that in the tune. I'm sure it's there, but there are so many data points to sort through, it's like opening a 400 page novel and searching for one particular paragraph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, KevinW said:

In the case of a 2007 SRX V8 in Sport Mode, I seem to invoke Performance Algorithm Shifting quite frequently while merging on highways.  The triggers are likely accelerator pedal movement characteristics and accelerometer data.  Once PAS mode is engaged, it won't upshift even when the accelerator is released; this enables a quicker response when the driver gets back on the throttle to navigate around slower traffic or pull out of a sharp corner. 

Yes, that's what I'm describing from my 2004.  The more recent automatics don't seem to hold that shift like this particular one does. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now




  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Lloyd-TX
      Lloyd-TX
      Age: 63
  • Similar Content

    • By William Maley
      BMW Group U.S. Reports December 2017 and Year-End Sales.
      BMW Group sales increase 3.7 percent in December. BMW brand sales increase 4.3 percent. MINI brand sales decrease 1.0 percent. BMW Group Electrified Vehicles Sales total 21,208 in 2017. Woodcliff Lake, NJ – January 3, 2018… Sales of BMW brand vehicles increased 4.3 percent in December for a total of 34,253 compared to 32,835 vehicles sold in December 2016. For the full year, BMW brand sales were down 2.4 percent on total sales of 305,685 vehicles compared to 313,174 sold in 2016.
      Notable individual vehicles in December included the BMW 5 Series, the BMW X1 and the BMW X5. Sales of the BMW 5 Series increased 124 percent to 4,743 vehicles. The BMW X5 was up nearly 10 percent to 6,847 vehicles while the BMW X1 was up 6.4 percent to 4,454 vehicles.
      “Momentum has been building throughout 2017 and the December results have put us in a strong position for the New Year,” said Bernhard Kuhnt, President and CEO, BMW of North America. “Our BMW models are attracting entirely new customers to our dealerships, especially the BMW 5 Series, X models, and our electrified vehicles. There’s much more to come in 2018 with the next new model – the BMW X2 - premiering at the Detroit Auto Show in less than two weeks.”
      MINI Brand Sales
      For December, MINI USA reported 4,611 vehicles sold, a decrease of 1.0 percent from the 4,658 sold in the same month a year ago. In 2017 MINI USA reported a total of 47,105 vehicles sold, a decrease of 9.5 percent from the 52,030 vehicles sold in 2016.
      BMW Group Sales
      In total, the BMW Group in the U.S. (BMW and MINI combined) reported December sales of 38,864 vehicles, an increase of 3.7 percent from the 37,493 vehicles sold in the same month a year ago. In 2017 BMW Group reported sales of 352,790, a 3.4 percent decrease compared to 365,204 vehicles sold in 2016.
      BMW Group Electrified Vehicle Sales
      Sales of BMW Group electric and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles increased 31.2 percent in 2017 to 21,208, accounting for 6.0 percent of total BMW Group sales in the U.S. BMW offers six electrified vehicle models in the U.S., including the BMW i3 and BMW i8, as well as the BMW i Performance models: BMW 330e, BMW 530e, BMW 740e and the BMW X5 xDrive 40e. MINI offers the MINI Countryman plug-in-hybrid electric vehicle.

    • By William Maley
      The number of models that you can get with a manual transmission has been declining over the past few years. For the 2019 model year, there could be another one off the list.
      The Truth About Cars has been going through General Motors' VIN decoder document for the 2019 model year. One of the items they have discovered is the 2019 Chevrolet Cruze will lose the six-speed manual for both the gas and diesel engines. It also looks like a CVT will become available. The document doesn't list what model the CVT could go in - our guess is that it could be an high-mileage eco model.
      Now, GM could change what is listed in the documents in the future. Under NHTSA regulations, an automaker can add new information on models up until 60 days before the start of production.
      We'll keep you posted.
      Source: The Truth About Cars
      Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears


      View full article
    • By William Maley
      The number of models that you can get with a manual transmission has been declining over the past few years. For the 2019 model year, there could be another one off the list.
      The Truth About Cars has been going through General Motors' VIN decoder document for the 2019 model year. One of the items they have discovered is the 2019 Chevrolet Cruze will lose the six-speed manual for both the gas and diesel engines. It also looks like a CVT will become available. The document doesn't list what model the CVT could go in - our guess is that it could be an high-mileage eco model.
      Now, GM could change what is listed in the documents in the future. Under NHTSA regulations, an automaker can add new information on models up until 60 days before the start of production.
      We'll keep you posted.
      Source: The Truth About Cars
      Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears

    • By Drew Dowdell
      BMW released the details and pictures of the 2018 BMW X2 back in October, but the 2018 North American International Auto Show in Detroit is where the official world debut will happen. 
      The 2018 BMW X2 (officially named X2 xDrive28i) is a sportier take on the company's existing X1 crossover.  Unlike the X3/X4 and X5/X6 pairs, the X2 does not get a more coupe-like profile, keeping things more upright like a standard crossover.  Ostensibly, this is to keep headroom usable on an already snug vehicle, overall however, the X2 roof is 2.8 inches lower and 3.2 inches shorter than the X1.
      The X2 is powered by an updated version of BMW's 228 horsepower 2.0 liter 4-cylinder. It is capable of 258 lb-ft of torque from 1,450 - 4,500 rpm. Power is routed to all four wheels via an 8-speed automatic. No manual transmission is being offered at this time.  The all-wheel drive system runs in front-wheel drive mode most of the time. When slip is detected an electronic clutch engages the rear wheels. 
      Along with the X1, the BMW X2 shares a platform with the BMW 1-series sold only in China and 2-series Tourer models (not the coupe) sold in Europe, and the Mini Countryman and Clubman. 
      The 2018 X2 xDrive28i will arrive in dealerships in spring of 2018.  The official unveil is scheduled for 9:35 am on January 15th at Cobo Center, Detroit.
      Click here to follow all 2018 Detroit Auto Show News.
      Click here to follow BMW News.
       
       
       
      View full article
       
    • By Drew Dowdell
      BMW released the details and pictures of the 2018 BMW X2 back in October, but the 2018 North American International Auto Show in Detroit is where the official world debut will happen. 
      The 2018 BMW X2 (officially named X2 xDrive28i) is a sportier take on the company's existing X1 crossover.  Unlike the X3/X4 and X5/X6 pairs, the X2 does not get a more coupe-like profile, keeping things more upright like a standard crossover.  Ostensibly, this is to keep headroom usable on an already snug vehicle, overall however, the X2 roof is 2.8 inches lower and 3.2 inches shorter than the X1.
      The X2 is powered by an updated version of BMW's 228 horsepower 2.0 liter 4-cylinder. It is capable of 258 lb-ft of torque from 1,450 - 4,500 rpm. Power is routed to all four wheels via an 8-speed automatic. No manual transmission is being offered at this time.  The all-wheel drive system runs in front-wheel drive mode most of the time. When slip is detected an electronic clutch engages the rear wheels. 
      Along with the X1, the BMW X2 shares a platform with the BMW 1-series sold only in China and 2-series sold in Europe, and the Mini Countryman and Clubman. 
      The 2018 X2 xDrive28i will arrive in dealerships in spring of 2018.  The official unveil is scheduled for 9:35 am on January 15th at Cobo Center, Detroit.
      Click here to follow all 2018 Detroit Auto Show News.
      Click here to follow BMW News.
       
       
  • My Clubs

  • Who's Online (See full list)

About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We  Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×