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1 hour ago, Stew said:

But that just isn't true, the vast majority of CUVs these days drive as well as their sedan counterparts. 

Complete bull...the sedans drive much better.  It is a function of weight and center of gravity IMHO. 

This is why I like the Subaru BRZ...its center of gravity is actually lower than a Porsche Cayman, one of the other cars I love.

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

So crossovers with hundreds of extra pounds in curb weight, higher center of gravity, and more wind resistance drive the same as equivalent sedans? No. That's objectively false and you can see the difference in acceleration, handling, and dynamics in every review. It's basic physics, and I'm surprised it's even debatable.

Quoted again for truth.

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9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Complete bull...the sedans drive much better.  It is a function of weight and center of gravity IMHO. 

This is why I like the Subaru BRZ...its center of gravity is actually lower than a Porsche Cayman, one of the other cars I love.

Quoted again for truth.

You are talking about a BR-Z, not a Malibu or Taurus.  Modern tech can really make huge differences in the feel of a vehicle.  Keep in mind I am not talking huge CUVs like the Traverse, etc.  You can get midsize car room in a compact SUV and here we are talking about vehicles like the CX-5, Forrester ST, Escape 2.0 EB, which basically as light as any car, and manufacturers do great jobs lowering the center of gravity and roll mitigation these days, so I stand by what I said. 

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2 minutes ago, Stew said:

You are talking about a BR-Z, not a Malibu or Taurus.  Modern tech can really make huge differences in the feel of a vehicle.  Keep in mind I am not talking huge CUVs like the Traverse, etc.  You can get midsize car room in a compact SUV and here we are talking about vehicles like the CX-5, Forrester ST, Escape 2.0 EB, which basically as light as any car, and manufacturers do great jobs lowering the center of gravity and roll mitigation these days, so I stand by what I said. 

Look....I agree the Forrester XT is a wonderful product.  I am as much of a Subaru fan as SMK is a Benz fan or Cmicasa is a Cadillac fan.

But to say it is anything  like a WRX is just irrational.

And a regular Forrester is nothing like a regular Impreza.

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2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Look....I agree the Forrester XT is a wonderful product.  I am as much of a Subaru fan as SMK is a Benz fan or Cmicasa is a Cadillac fan.

But to say it is anything  like a WRX is just irrational.

And a regular Forrester is nothing like a regular Impreza.

Read again, I said compared to midsize sedans.  He Legacy isn't exactly a handler. 

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Just now, Stew said:

Read again, I said compared to midsize sedans.  He Legacy isn't exactly a handler. 

It is in a way... Subaru has a fantastic all wheel drive system...and with a lower center of Gravity...the Legacy is a decent handling car.

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Love that GM has scaled back selling to rental companies, helps to keep residual value up on used auto's. :D

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Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

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3 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Not a Ford guy in the least...but the Focus is really a decent handling little car...especially in ST trim,

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17 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Love that GM has scaled back selling to rental companies, helps to keep residual value up on used auto's. :D

Indeed...more their true mission to build premium vehicles anyways...

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17 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

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14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

No, *you* moved the goal post by throwing in a wildly inappropriate vehicle comparison. Is any random sedan as capable as the top performance SUVs? No, but that's such a dubious statement. Stew made the same logical mistake in trying to rationalize comparing the SRT Grand Cherokee against a Charger R/T. If you have to grant an SUV a vastly superior powertrain and a multitude of performance enhancements to win, you've bolstered OUR argument, not yours.

Fact: sedans have better dynamics and performance than crossovers. Opinion: we are sad to see the market abandoning better driving cars for bloated appliances.

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People aren't buying crossovers for space concerns they are buying them more for image.  If you took a group of average people and put an Equinox next to an Impala, the majority would think the Equinox was roomier and more luxurious and that it was a more premium product.  They wouldn't know that the Impala was 2 size classes bigger had more leg room or had more luxury features, they would see the SUV as the more desirable vehicle.

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1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Possibly depending on the person driving, their skills and your idea of what Handling means in regards to each auto. My Trailblazer SS AWD handles much better than the Taurus, Fusion and Focus. My skill as an experienced racer puts me even higher than most people driving my TB. All auto's are subjective to the type of auto it is and the driver and so many other things.

So it is hard to say an Apple is better than an Orange. This is a moving goal post trying to compare CUV's to Cars and depending on the experience of the driver.

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course. :P  

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6 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course. :P  

Camaro SS would hand the Trail Blazer it's ass on a platter, actually.

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No doubt it would.

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43 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So people think the $67K GLS is a more premium product than the $95K S-class?

Interesting...

Indeed...and a Trax would be more prestige than a CTS then...

Just now, TaurusSHO said:

No doubt it would.

Hate to say it but a Continental with the high output six and AWD would also.

1 hour ago, cp-the-nerd said:

No, *you* moved the goal post by throwing in a wildly inappropriate vehicle comparison. Is any random sedan as capable as the top performance SUVs? No, but that's such a dubious statement. Stew made the same logical mistake in trying to rationalize comparing the SRT Grand Cherokee against a Charger R/T. If you have to grant an SUV a vastly superior powertrain and a multitude of performance enhancements to win, you've bolstered OUR argument, not yours.

Fact: sedans have better dynamics and performance than crossovers. Opinion: we are sad to see the market abandoning better driving cars for bloated appliances.

I need a 20 year old version of you on the college debate team I help coach.

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25 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

It's not a moving goal post at all.  I chose those specific vehicles because I knew they were on the same platform.  You know, an apples to apples comparison.  Check the tests and you'll see the sedan performs better each time.  As far as a Trailblazer SS goes, I'd pick a Taurus SHO to win the race every time.  Assuming equal drivers of course. :P  

I take my TB over your Taurus SHO. :D  TB would win.

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15 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I take my TB over your Taurus SHO. :D  TB would win.

Well if I actually had a Taurus SHO I would gladly race you somewhere! :lol:  I'm currently driving a 1989 LeBaron until I get a full time job after I graduate college. 

LeBaron__1.jpg

Edited by TaurusSHO
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3 hours ago, TaurusSHO said:

Does the Explorer handle better than the Taurus? No.

Does the Edge handle better than the Fusion? No.

Does the Escape handle better than the Focus? No.

I can go on...

 

Not only handles better, but probably brakes better, gets better gas mileage too.  But the people don't care, they see Crossover = Status symbol or Crossover = premium vehicle.

Part of the problem is people won't even give the car a chance.  If you have a 2010 Fusion and come to the dealer and look at a 2017 Escape Ecoboost, then the ride, handling, gas mileage, etc may be better on that Escape because it is getting compared to a 7 year old car. 

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49 minutes ago, TaurusSHO said:

Well if I actually had a Taurus SHO I would gladly race you somewhere! :lol:  I'm currently driving a 1989 LeBaron until I get a full time job after I graduate college. 

LeBaron__1.jpg

Two thoughts...this must be Photoshop, as no 1989 car in the state of Ohio is this pristine and clean.

Also, you write and think so clearly I assumed you already had an advanced degree.

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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

So people think the $67K GLS is a more premium product than the $95K S-class?

Interesting...

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies, they invest big dollars into that sedan and they position it as their halo product.  Cadillac and Lincoln make an SUV their top product, Buick does it with Enclave, Acura does it with MDX, etc.  Most brands market their SUVs as what you should buy because that is where they make their profit.  Nothing wrong with that either.  But I am a fan of cars, I don't like SUVs, so I like a brand that pushes cars.

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7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not only handles better, but probably brakes better, gets better gas mileage too.  But the people don't care, they see Crossover = Status symbol or Crossover = premium vehicle.

Part of the problem is people won't even give the car a chance.  If you have a 2010 Fusion and come to the dealer and look at a 2017 Escape Ecoboost, then the ride, handling, gas mileage, etc may be better on that Escape because it is getting compared to a 7 year old car. 

Indeed... which is why we need more new Vehicles along the line of that trailblazer SS!

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies, they invest big dollars into that sedan and they position it as their halo product.  Cadillac and Lincoln make an SUV their top product, Buick does it with Enclave, Acura does it with MDX, etc.  Most brands market their SUVs as what you should buy because that is where they make their profit.  Nothing wrong with that either.  But I am a fan of cars, I don't like SUVs, so I like a brand that pushes cars.

I would up vote this by a hundred if I had any up votes left for today.

You have a clear reason for your preference...that beats all of the argument over price and sales numbers also.

 

It is also why I like Mazda... plucky independent with a two seat affordable roadster as a Flagship.

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1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Indeed...and a Trax would be more prestige than a CTS then...

Hate to say it but a Continental with the high output six and AWD would also.

I need a 20 year old version of you on the college debate team I help coach.

No, but I bet if you polled 100 people at a Cadillac dealership and took the window stickers off the cars, the majority would say the XT5 is a more premium or more desirable product than the CTS and even the CT6.  Because most advertising is made to make people think the crossover is better.

Another problem is size doesn't equal luxury any more.  In the 80s and maybe some in the 90s, the large sedan meant luxury because it had space.  Not people see crossovers as having space, but also no one wants a large vehicle.  A Rav4 that is 180 inches long or whatever it is is seen as a family car, and even as a better family car than the Camry that is actually bigger and roomier.  It defies logic.

Anyone notice that the LaCrosse is a new product and down 56%.  It is a rough business selling big sedans, I think car companies need small to mid-size sedans that offer luxury and performance way above what the SUVs can offer to stay relevant.  I think the new Camry stepped it up a lot to try to get people back in sedans.  Since the Lacrosse and Impala are going away, they should take the interior out of those cars and put it in the Malibu, then maybe people would consider a Malibu over a Rav4 that seems to sell 2,000 units a day now.

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4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No, the S-class is clearly Mercedes flagship product.  The power, the technology, the luxury is all put there.  This is a difference between Mercedes and a lot of car companies...

I'm not so sure about that. GLS is bigger, taller, blingier, has a much bigger star emblem in the grille... I bet all those people who assume SUVs are a step up from the corresponding sedan probably think the GLS is above the s-class, which is rather bland & pretty much dated styling-wise, plus they are usually black which makes people think of livery cars. PLUS... MB prices the ancient hoary old g-wagon HIGHER than the S-class, reinforcing your theory that SUVs may be perceived as higher up than sedans.

Look at Cadillac- there is no sedan equivalent of the E, it has the highest MSRP in the catalog, and people know it's (currently) the top model. That probably extends to many consumers.

Good work!!

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