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William Maley

Quick Drive: 2017 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid

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6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

My dad had a 2001 Odyssey that he put 224,000 miles on, and had fewer repairs and less money spent on that than he did on his 07 Hyundai Entourage or his 2011 Dodge Caravan that he has now.  The Caravan has by far been the least reliable and it only has 70,000 miles on it.  The Odessy had less repairs over 7 years than he has spent in just the past 1 year on the Caravan actually.

And a trip to auto trader or any car dealership shows Toyotas and Hondas with high resale value, and FCA products on deep discounts.  Even if the Pacifica is a much better vehicle, it is style a Chrysler which in the minds of most people = unreliable.

And? Those year Odyssey’s are what I’m mainly referring to. Those years are on every used car avoid list out there so if your dad’s did great, then he is in the minority. Feel free look up the many issues with those. 

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33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Jeeps certainly don't "tank" in value and they're FCA products. Challengers also look pretty solid in value.

But everything drops alarmingly in value, generally speaking, in the first few years. Some high-end luxury sedans end up losing their buyers $60K in 3 years on depreciation alone. Buying anything, automotively, brand new is a losing race.

Buy what you need/like, or whatever split there pleases you, and that's about the best one can do.

Hilarious. A Benz fan talking smack about others in regards to depreciation. Not even going to go there because that horse has been beat to death but we all know the truth about Benz depreciation. 

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6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Hondas tend to be decent, but your example is still only anecdotal.

My buddy's family has a Honda CR-V, I think it's a '16- they all hate driving it. Visibility & servicing are nightmarish. They have a circa '02 Ford-Mazda Tribute, which they are reluctantly parting with come next inspection because of an exhaust manifold leak not worth the cost of the repair. Looking at a CX-5 for a replacement there- not Honda.

Anecdotal.

the last gen CRV was a horrible machine.  At least on my test drive I hated it.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Any expensive car drops in value, unless it is a collectable, because the super rich get a new one every 2 years and the other 99% can't afford those cars.  But I think cost of car ownership is a big reason why these  flying drones and self driving cars will replace about half the cars on the road in 15 years.  People will just quit buying cars because there will be a cheaper, faster way to get around.

I'm not so sure. With the proliferation of upmarket & luxury model lines; people seem more willing to pay than ever.

Look at the lowly, farmer-spec pickup- for it's entire history a low tech, no frills tool, now Ford is going to offer a $100K pick up (and it'll sell). Go dealership hopping and look for a rubber-mat, RWD, base model F-150 - good luck.

If poor resale & high prices were a wide scale factor, all these lux brands would dwindle back to what they were 25 or 50 years ago; purely niche-level rarities, instead of mainstream lines. This is besides the fact that, to date, true self-driving cars are MORE expensive than their counterparts, not cheaper. Same thing with EVs (for now).

Edited by balthazar

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37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

I'm not so sure. With the proliferation of upmarket & luxury model lines; people seem more willing to pay than ever.

Look at the lowly, farmer-spec pickup- for it's entire history a low tech, no frills tool, now Ford is going to offer a $100K pick up (and it'll sell). Go dealership hopping and look for a rubber-mat, RWD, base model F-150 - good luck.

If poor resale & high prices were a wide scale factor, all these lux brands would dwindle back to what they were 25 or 50 years ago; purely niche-level rarities, instead of mainstream lines. This is besides the fact that, to date, true self-driving cars are MORE expensive than their counterparts, not cheaper. Same thing with EVs (for now).

Porsche holds value like crazy, they are an exception to the high dollar cars holding value.   People buy cars now mostly because they have to, and there is a desire to have the best or out do your neighbor or buy a fun or exciting car.  There will still be people that buy a Corvette because they want a sports car.   But for people that are just buying commuter cars, the drones will probably be way cheaper.  Why sit in traffic when a vertical takeoff drone can take you to where you want to go in half the time.

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Amazon first announced drone delivery over 4 years ago, still nothing. People drones / jet-pacs have been talked about for decades, yet we still can't get a package of Ho-Hos dropped on a random doorstep. Personal drone Uber isn't going to happen in any of our lifetimes.

Porsches hold their value well yes, but note that the '15 Caymans I looked at on Autotrader pretty much all had ridiculously low miles; Porsche owners don't seem to want to drive their cars. That's gotta help.

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A lot of people have Porsches as 2nd or 3rd cars, so they tend to keep the miles down.  One anecdote that's the opposite I know of--a buddy in Colorado bought an '08 Boxster S new, has put about 120k miles on it as his daily driver.  

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Either way, the Pacifica will probably tank in value just like every other FCA product.  So pay $47k now, and in 3 years time, over half that will be gone.   

 

That's still better than an S-Class... an S-class loses more than the entire MSRP of the Pacifica Hybrid in just 2 years.  You could buy a Pacifica Hybrid, have it depreciate 100% and still be ahead on the money compared to an S-Class buyer/leaser, yet still be under warranty.   So, using your logic, the Pacifica Hybrid is better than the S-class. 

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6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

That's still better than an S-Class... an S-class loses more than the entire MSRP of the Pacifica Hybrid in just 2 years.  You could buy a Pacifica Hybrid, have it depreciate 100% and still be ahead on the money compared to an S-Class buyer/leaser, yet still be under warranty.   So, using your logic, the Pacifica Hybrid is better than the S-class. 

S-class as a percentage should hold value better than a Pacifica.  Large sedans in general lose value fast though, minivans can do better since there are only a few to choose from and there are families that can't afford a new one.

If all 38 or so brands were listed in resale value I imagine FCA would have at least 5 of the bottom 10.

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Just now, smk4565 said:

S-class as a percentage should hold value better than a Pacifica.  Large sedans in general lose value fast though, minivans can do better since there are only a few to choose from and there are families that can't afford a new one.

If all 38 or so brands were listed in resale value I imagine FCA would have at least 5 of the bottom 10.

 

Does percentage really matter when you're losing that absolute volume of dollars in that amount of time?   Heck, even rapidly depreciating vehicles like the Regal are only losing $15k in 2 years... sure, that might be 30% of their value, but it's only $15k, not $60k like the S-Class.   Like I said, a Pacifica Hybrid buyer could have their vehicle depreciate to ZERO and they'd still be ahead of the money lost by someone getting into an S-Class. 

If I have the choice of losing $47k or $60k, I'm going to chose the $47k regardless of what percentage of the original value that is. Percentages are meaningless to your checkbook in this case. 

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55 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Does percentage really matter when you're losing that absolute volume of dollars in that amount of time?   Heck, even rapidly depreciating vehicles like the Regal are only losing $15k in 2 years... sure, that might be 30% of their value, but it's only $15k, not $60k like the S-Class.   Like I said, a Pacifica Hybrid buyer could have their vehicle depreciate to ZERO and they'd still be ahead of the money lost by someone getting into an S-Class. 

If I have the choice of losing $47k or $60k, I'm going to chose the $47k regardless of what percentage of the original value that is. Percentages are meaningless to your checkbook in this case. 

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.  

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16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.  

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

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14 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

And the fact that they “don’t care” only highlights the general buying ignorance of your average Mercedes/BMW/Audi buyer. 

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4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.

The flip side to that would be people who buy a car and drive it to the ground that no matter what car it is...resale value is 50 bucks because the damned thing is 15-16-17 years old and rusted to hell. The heater dont work. The tires are all bald. The tail light plastics are broken, there are all kinds of battle scars on it, and the car has traveled the equivalent of 3 times the earth.

Then there are people like me who amortize the car purchase properly. I utilized it long enough and is ready to part with it and I effectively become like those CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers you are talking about with their S Classes but with Oldsmobile Aleros and Impala SSs  and Ford Fusions and  Acura TLs.

I also corrected financial mistakes with Ford Edges and downsizing to Mazda 3s while paying no attention to resale value. Just using the tried and true formula of amortization and the looking yourself in the mirror and cutting your loses technique  because for 99% of the time, my wife and I make sound financial decisions anyway rather than making a car buying decision on a BIASED marketed term as resale value...

BIASED marketed term because in a wintery area where I come from, when you daily drive even the North American avg. of 20 000 miles a year, wear and tear on the car accelerates where freezing temperatures screw with your car, salt and little stones for the ice rust and ding your car, pot holes damage your car and you are always repairing the ball joints and suspensions because said pot holes are unavoidable therefore even after 8-9-10 years of daily driving your car in this kind of environment, no matter if Mercedes or Hyundai, your car in 10 years is WORTHLESS in Quebec...OK...a general scrap yard price of 250-500 bucks for the parts!!!

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43 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

Depreciation does matter. It's factored into your lease.

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21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Depreciation does matter. It's factored into your lease.

Yup...and the manufacturer is giving you an arbitrary value for the car at the end of the leasing term...for you and for the manufacturer's benefit.

And in essence...the manufacturer dictates somewhat the value of its used cars somewhat...and THAT is why I say biased and marketed bullshyte resale value...

And in turn, this could hamper or help the value and perception of its new cars...

Which is why many view Mercedes and BMW going down a worm hole with their leases, their focus on going down market and the sheer amount of useless models in non-existent niches...

 

 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And the fact that they “don’t care” only highlights the general buying ignorance of your average Mercedes/BMW/Audi buyer. 

I guess GM should stop selling Escalades, CTS-Vs, and CT6's since they will just depreciate $50,000+ in 5 years.  Maybe companies should stop selling luxury cars all together.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I guess GM should stop selling Escalades, CTS-Vs, and CT6's since they will just depreciate $50,000+ in 5 years.  Maybe companies should stop selling luxury cars all together.

No, but maybe people who live in Benzes shouldn't throw depreciation stones at Pacifica Hybrids.

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No, but maybe people who live in Benzes shouldn't throw depreciation stones at Pacifica Hybrids.

I bought mine after depreciation hit it, and Mercedes as a brand is better than industry avg on depreciation.  Chrysler is among the worst.  And my original statement of $20k after 2 years is going to be right, there are 1 year old Pacificas selling for $24k right now. 

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The Pacifica oddly enough is the one of few FCA vehicles I would have no issue getting CPO.

Especially 2018 MY+ as they have finally gotten the 9 speed right with the newest model out as of late.

One thing I hope Chrysler does do, is make the future Pacifica Hybrid an AWD model with electric rear axle. That would be a great win, the only AWD minivan is the Sienna.

The Hybrid Pacifica is a better value than the Odyssey Elite. Sure you don't get LED lights and some other features, but you get 50% better mileage, and with tax incentives that if you can qualify for, will cost less.

 

 

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    • By Drew Dowdell
      At an event in May, I got to spend some time with the 2020 Kia Telluride. The Telluride is an all-new model for Kia, though it is based on the Kia Sorento’s platform.  Being a good bit longer than the 7-passenger Sorento, it is substantially roomier inside, allowing for 7 or 8 passenger configurations depending on trim level.  The version I tested was the top of the line SX package with all-wheel drive and an additional Prestige Package.  Kia makes standard a whole host of active safety equipment.  Thankfully, I didn’t get to test any of the more important ones. One important safety feature on my shopping list is Smart Cruise Control with Stop and Go, and the Kia has it standard.
      On appearance alone, Kia is going to have a hit on their hands.  Though on the same platform as the Kia Sorento, the Telluride strikes a handsome square and almost truck-like silhouette. The overall look is of a vehicle even bigger than it is. Up front are an attractive set of headlight clusters with yellow surround daytime running lamps. As this is a new entry to the segment, Kia spells out the model name across the front of the hood making sure you know what model vehicle it is.  It still manages to look classy. My tester had the black 20-inch wheels, LED headlamps, and rear fix-glass sunroof that comes with the SX trim level.  
      Because this was the top of the line SX with Prestige Package, it came with beautiful Napa leather chairs, second-row captain chairs, heads up display, and premium cloth headliner and sun visors.  The overall fit and finish of my tester was excellent. Switchgear is nicely weighted and has a premium, if not luxury, feel to it. The styling inside is handsome if conservative, and passengers could be fooled into thinking they were in a vehicle of higher pedigree.  While it is roomier than the Sorento, is it still smaller than some of its primary competition. The Honda Pilot, Chevrolet Traverse, and Buick Enclave all boast roomier interiors.  Still, second-row comfort was good and third-row accessibility is acceptable, though best left to the kids.
      My experience with the Telluride’s 10-inch infotainment system was limited, however, it is based on the same UVO system found in their other vehicles.  Even in its native modes, I find Kia UVO to be one of the easier systems to use, but if you use the included Android Auto and Apple Car Play most often, you won’t be in the native system much anyway.
      The only engine option on the Kia Telluride is a 291 horsepower 3.8 liter direct-injected V6.  Torque comes in at 261 lb-ft, about average for this segment.  Coupled to the engine is an 8-speed automatic, and if you check the box for an additional $2,000, you get an active AWD system.  The system constantly monitors traction and via a controller in the cabin, the driver can select between 80/20 (Comfort and Snow), 65/35 (Sport), and 50/50 (Lock, best used for off-roading).  If you do care to do off-roading, you have 8-inches of ground clearance to play with. Towing capacity is 5,000 pounds which again is pretty much the expected capacity for the segment. EPA fuel economy is rated at 19 city / 24 highway / 21 combined.  The 2020 Telluride has not yet received a crash test rating.
      Though the engine only puts out 261 lb-ft of torque, the 8-speed automatic makes quick work of it and acceleration is sufficient at a reported 7.1 seconds.  Engine noise is hushed and refined.
      One of my favorite things about the Kia Telluride is its ride. The suspension is soft and comfortable.  The big 20-inch wheels can slam hard if one hits some more serious potholes, but overall this is one of the nicest riding big SUVs.  That soft suspension does have a downside; body roll and handling are not what you would call sporting. Though the steering is precise and well weighted, the big Kia hefts and leans through corners. Take it slow with grandma in the back and all will be well.  The towing package adds a hitch receiver and a load leveling suspension.
      Kia is not a brand known for luxury vehicles, but in SX Prestige trim, this Telluride can certainly count as one.  That leads us to the price. At $46,860 after destination charges, the Telluride handily undercuts the competition, some of which don’t even offer the level of active safety technology the Kia offers as standard.  If you’re shopping in the large SUV segment, the Kia Telluride is definitely one to add to your test drive list.
      Year: 2020
      Make: Kia 
      Model: Telluride
      Trim: SX
      Engine: 3.8L Gasoline Direct Injected V6
      Driveline: All-Wheel Drive
      Horsepower @ RPM: 291 hp @ 6,000 rpm
      Torque @ RPM: 262 lb.-ft. @ 5,200 rpm 
      Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 19/24/21
      Curb Weight: 4482 lb.
      Location of Manufacture: West Point, GA
      Base Price: $31,690
      As Tested Price: $45,815
      Destination Charge: $1,045
      Options:
      SX Prestige Package - $2,000
      Carpeted Floor Mats - $210
      Carpeted Cargo Mat w/ Seat Back Protection - $115
    • By William Maley
      Seven years ago, I drove the previous-generation Mitsubishi Outlander for a week-long review. There was a lot to like about the previous model as it featured distinctive shape, comfortable ride, and being somewhat fun to drive. But in other areas, the model fell a bit flat. Poor material choices, firm ride, and the optional V6 engine feeling slightly lackluster. I ended my review with this,
      “Mitsubishi has shown a new Outlander at the Geneva Motor Show earlier this year. Underneath the Outlander’s new sheet metal lies a new vehicle architecture and will have the choice between gas and plug-in hybrid power. The new Outlander also gets revised interior and new safety equipment. The question is will the new Outlander be able to fix the problems of the current one?”
      It has taken a fair amount of time to get my hands on the new Outlander. In that time, Mitsubishi has made a number of changes and updates to the Outlander lineup such as a revised exterior. Was it worth the wait?
      The Outlander’s shape is nothing too special with rounded corners, large glass area, and a set of 18-inch alloy wheels that comes standard on most models. For 2019, Mitsubishi has updated the Outlander’s front end with a new grille shape, headlights, and more chrome trim. It does help spruce up the design that has been with us since 2014. My only complaint is the dark silver paint on my tester. It makes the vehicle look like a giant blob. There isn’t anything that sets the interior apart from rivals. The design is somewhat plain, but material quality is quite surprising with an abundance of soft-touch materials. There is a fair amount of piano black trim, which does attract fingerprints. All Outlanders come with a 7-inch touchscreen running Mitsubishi’s latest infotainment system is standard. Those wanting Apple CarPlay and Android Auto need to step up to the SE or higher. My experience with the system mimics the Eclipse Cross; lags behind the competition in terms of the interface and performance, but its a huge step forward from the previous system. The Outlander is one of the few models in the compact crossover class that can boast having three-rows to allow seating for seven. This seat is best reserved for small kids due to the limited amount of leg and headroom. Having the third-row also eats into cargo space - 10.3 vs. 33 cubic feet with the seats folded. Front and rear seating is fine. There’s enough padding to keep everyone comfortable on a long trip, and most passengers will be able to stretch out. Most Outlanders come equipped with a 2.4L four-cylinder engine producing 166 horsepower and 162 pound-feet of torque. This is paired with a CVT and the choice of front or Mitsubishi’s Super All Wheel Control. Step up to the GT to get a 3.0L V6 packing 224 hp and 215 lb-ft of torque. There’s also a PHEV option which I talk about more in this first drive piece. The 2.4 is serviceable around town with brisk acceleration and minimal noise. But take the Outlander on the highway or fill it up with people and cargo, and the 2.4 feels overwhelmed. Not helping is the CVT that will drone quite loudly when you plant your foot on the gas. Fuel economy is mid-pack with EPA figures of 24 City/29 Highway/26 Combined for the AWD version - front-wheel drive models see a one MPG improvement. My average for the week landed around 24. One area that I was surprised by the Outlander was the ride. Over the varied surfaces on offer in the Metro Detroit area, the Outlander’s suspension smoothed out various bumps. It doesn’t feel comfortable around corners, showing noticeable body lean and a disconnected steering system.  The Mitsubishi Outlander answers the oddly specific question of, “what is the cheapest three-row crossover I could buy?’ I can see why someone on a tight budget would consider one as the Outlander provides a lot of standard equipment, along with seating for seven at a low price. It doesn’t hurt that Mitsubishi’s 5 year/60,000 mile new car warranty does provide peace of mind for those who want a bit of security. But it does become a poor value the higher you climb in price. My Outlander SEL S-AWC tester starts at $29.095. With the optional SEL Touring Package (forward collision mitigation, adaptive cruise control, LED headlights, and a 710W Rockford Fosgate audio system) and carpeted floor mats, the price ballooned to $33,225 with destination. For that amount of cash, you get into a decently equipped Volkswagen Tiguan or Mazda CX-5. I know dealers put cash on the hoods - most dropping the cost to under $30,000, but it is still a tough sell. Disclaimer: Mitsubishi Provided the Outlander, Insurance, and One Tank of Gas
      Year: 2019
      Make: Mitsubishi
      Model: Outlander
      Trim: SEL S-AWC
      Engine: 2.4L MIVEC SOHC 16-Valve Four-Cylinder
      Driveline: CVT, All-Wheel Drive
      Horsepower @ RPM: 166 @ 6,000
      Torque @ RPM: 162 @ 4,200
      Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 24/29/26
      Curb Weight: 3,472 lbs
      Location of Manufacture: Okazaki, Japan
      Base Price: $29,095
      As Tested Price: $33,225 (Includes $995.00 Destination Charge)
      Options:
      SEL Touring Package - $3,000.00
      Accessory Carpeted Floors Mats and Portfolio - $135.00

      View full article
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