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William Maley

Quick Drive: 2017 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid

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6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

My dad had a 2001 Odyssey that he put 224,000 miles on, and had fewer repairs and less money spent on that than he did on his 07 Hyundai Entourage or his 2011 Dodge Caravan that he has now.  The Caravan has by far been the least reliable and it only has 70,000 miles on it.  The Odessy had less repairs over 7 years than he has spent in just the past 1 year on the Caravan actually.

And a trip to auto trader or any car dealership shows Toyotas and Hondas with high resale value, and FCA products on deep discounts.  Even if the Pacifica is a much better vehicle, it is style a Chrysler which in the minds of most people = unreliable.

And? Those year Odyssey’s are what I’m mainly referring to. Those years are on every used car avoid list out there so if your dad’s did great, then he is in the minority. Feel free look up the many issues with those. 

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33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Jeeps certainly don't "tank" in value and they're FCA products. Challengers also look pretty solid in value.

But everything drops alarmingly in value, generally speaking, in the first few years. Some high-end luxury sedans end up losing their buyers $60K in 3 years on depreciation alone. Buying anything, automotively, brand new is a losing race.

Buy what you need/like, or whatever split there pleases you, and that's about the best one can do.

Hilarious. A Benz fan talking smack about others in regards to depreciation. Not even going to go there because that horse has been beat to death but we all know the truth about Benz depreciation. 

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6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Hondas tend to be decent, but your example is still only anecdotal.

My buddy's family has a Honda CR-V, I think it's a '16- they all hate driving it. Visibility & servicing are nightmarish. They have a circa '02 Ford-Mazda Tribute, which they are reluctantly parting with come next inspection because of an exhaust manifold leak not worth the cost of the repair. Looking at a CX-5 for a replacement there- not Honda.

Anecdotal.

the last gen CRV was a horrible machine.  At least on my test drive I hated it.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Any expensive car drops in value, unless it is a collectable, because the super rich get a new one every 2 years and the other 99% can't afford those cars.  But I think cost of car ownership is a big reason why these  flying drones and self driving cars will replace about half the cars on the road in 15 years.  People will just quit buying cars because there will be a cheaper, faster way to get around.

I'm not so sure. With the proliferation of upmarket & luxury model lines; people seem more willing to pay than ever.

Look at the lowly, farmer-spec pickup- for it's entire history a low tech, no frills tool, now Ford is going to offer a $100K pick up (and it'll sell). Go dealership hopping and look for a rubber-mat, RWD, base model F-150 - good luck.

If poor resale & high prices were a wide scale factor, all these lux brands would dwindle back to what they were 25 or 50 years ago; purely niche-level rarities, instead of mainstream lines. This is besides the fact that, to date, true self-driving cars are MORE expensive than their counterparts, not cheaper. Same thing with EVs (for now).

Edited by balthazar

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37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

I'm not so sure. With the proliferation of upmarket & luxury model lines; people seem more willing to pay than ever.

Look at the lowly, farmer-spec pickup- for it's entire history a low tech, no frills tool, now Ford is going to offer a $100K pick up (and it'll sell). Go dealership hopping and look for a rubber-mat, RWD, base model F-150 - good luck.

If poor resale & high prices were a wide scale factor, all these lux brands would dwindle back to what they were 25 or 50 years ago; purely niche-level rarities, instead of mainstream lines. This is besides the fact that, to date, true self-driving cars are MORE expensive than their counterparts, not cheaper. Same thing with EVs (for now).

Porsche holds value like crazy, they are an exception to the high dollar cars holding value.   People buy cars now mostly because they have to, and there is a desire to have the best or out do your neighbor or buy a fun or exciting car.  There will still be people that buy a Corvette because they want a sports car.   But for people that are just buying commuter cars, the drones will probably be way cheaper.  Why sit in traffic when a vertical takeoff drone can take you to where you want to go in half the time.

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Amazon first announced drone delivery over 4 years ago, still nothing. People drones / jet-pacs have been talked about for decades, yet we still can't get a package of Ho-Hos dropped on a random doorstep. Personal drone Uber isn't going to happen in any of our lifetimes.

Porsches hold their value well yes, but note that the '15 Caymans I looked at on Autotrader pretty much all had ridiculously low miles; Porsche owners don't seem to want to drive their cars. That's gotta help.

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A lot of people have Porsches as 2nd or 3rd cars, so they tend to keep the miles down.  One anecdote that's the opposite I know of--a buddy in Colorado bought an '08 Boxster S new, has put about 120k miles on it as his daily driver.  

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Either way, the Pacifica will probably tank in value just like every other FCA product.  So pay $47k now, and in 3 years time, over half that will be gone.   

 

That's still better than an S-Class... an S-class loses more than the entire MSRP of the Pacifica Hybrid in just 2 years.  You could buy a Pacifica Hybrid, have it depreciate 100% and still be ahead on the money compared to an S-Class buyer/leaser, yet still be under warranty.   So, using your logic, the Pacifica Hybrid is better than the S-class. 

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6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

That's still better than an S-Class... an S-class loses more than the entire MSRP of the Pacifica Hybrid in just 2 years.  You could buy a Pacifica Hybrid, have it depreciate 100% and still be ahead on the money compared to an S-Class buyer/leaser, yet still be under warranty.   So, using your logic, the Pacifica Hybrid is better than the S-class. 

S-class as a percentage should hold value better than a Pacifica.  Large sedans in general lose value fast though, minivans can do better since there are only a few to choose from and there are families that can't afford a new one.

If all 38 or so brands were listed in resale value I imagine FCA would have at least 5 of the bottom 10.

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Just now, smk4565 said:

S-class as a percentage should hold value better than a Pacifica.  Large sedans in general lose value fast though, minivans can do better since there are only a few to choose from and there are families that can't afford a new one.

If all 38 or so brands were listed in resale value I imagine FCA would have at least 5 of the bottom 10.

 

Does percentage really matter when you're losing that absolute volume of dollars in that amount of time?   Heck, even rapidly depreciating vehicles like the Regal are only losing $15k in 2 years... sure, that might be 30% of their value, but it's only $15k, not $60k like the S-Class.   Like I said, a Pacifica Hybrid buyer could have their vehicle depreciate to ZERO and they'd still be ahead of the money lost by someone getting into an S-Class. 

If I have the choice of losing $47k or $60k, I'm going to chose the $47k regardless of what percentage of the original value that is. Percentages are meaningless to your checkbook in this case. 

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55 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Does percentage really matter when you're losing that absolute volume of dollars in that amount of time?   Heck, even rapidly depreciating vehicles like the Regal are only losing $15k in 2 years... sure, that might be 30% of their value, but it's only $15k, not $60k like the S-Class.   Like I said, a Pacifica Hybrid buyer could have their vehicle depreciate to ZERO and they'd still be ahead of the money lost by someone getting into an S-Class. 

If I have the choice of losing $47k or $60k, I'm going to chose the $47k regardless of what percentage of the original value that is. Percentages are meaningless to your checkbook in this case. 

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.  

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16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.  

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

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14 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

And the fact that they “don’t care” only highlights the general buying ignorance of your average Mercedes/BMW/Audi buyer. 

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4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the person buying an S-class new doesn't care.   You have CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers buying them that don't care about $60k.

The flip side to that would be people who buy a car and drive it to the ground that no matter what car it is...resale value is 50 bucks because the damned thing is 15-16-17 years old and rusted to hell. The heater dont work. The tires are all bald. The tail light plastics are broken, there are all kinds of battle scars on it, and the car has traveled the equivalent of 3 times the earth.

Then there are people like me who amortize the car purchase properly. I utilized it long enough and is ready to part with it and I effectively become like those CEO's and pro athletes and lawyers you are talking about with their S Classes but with Oldsmobile Aleros and Impala SSs  and Ford Fusions and  Acura TLs.

I also corrected financial mistakes with Ford Edges and downsizing to Mazda 3s while paying no attention to resale value. Just using the tried and true formula of amortization and the looking yourself in the mirror and cutting your loses technique  because for 99% of the time, my wife and I make sound financial decisions anyway rather than making a car buying decision on a BIASED marketed term as resale value...

BIASED marketed term because in a wintery area where I come from, when you daily drive even the North American avg. of 20 000 miles a year, wear and tear on the car accelerates where freezing temperatures screw with your car, salt and little stones for the ice rust and ding your car, pot holes damage your car and you are always repairing the ball joints and suspensions because said pot holes are unavoidable therefore even after 8-9-10 years of daily driving your car in this kind of environment, no matter if Mercedes or Hyundai, your car in 10 years is WORTHLESS in Quebec...OK...a general scrap yard price of 250-500 bucks for the parts!!!

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43 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Those 'buyers' are usually just leasing, so depreciation doesn't matter...

Depreciation does matter. It's factored into your lease.

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21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Depreciation does matter. It's factored into your lease.

Yup...and the manufacturer is giving you an arbitrary value for the car at the end of the leasing term...for you and for the manufacturer's benefit.

And in essence...the manufacturer dictates somewhat the value of its used cars somewhat...and THAT is why I say biased and marketed bullshyte resale value...

And in turn, this could hamper or help the value and perception of its new cars...

Which is why many view Mercedes and BMW going down a worm hole with their leases, their focus on going down market and the sheer amount of useless models in non-existent niches...

 

 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And the fact that they “don’t care” only highlights the general buying ignorance of your average Mercedes/BMW/Audi buyer. 

I guess GM should stop selling Escalades, CTS-Vs, and CT6's since they will just depreciate $50,000+ in 5 years.  Maybe companies should stop selling luxury cars all together.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I guess GM should stop selling Escalades, CTS-Vs, and CT6's since they will just depreciate $50,000+ in 5 years.  Maybe companies should stop selling luxury cars all together.

No, but maybe people who live in Benzes shouldn't throw depreciation stones at Pacifica Hybrids.

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No, but maybe people who live in Benzes shouldn't throw depreciation stones at Pacifica Hybrids.

I bought mine after depreciation hit it, and Mercedes as a brand is better than industry avg on depreciation.  Chrysler is among the worst.  And my original statement of $20k after 2 years is going to be right, there are 1 year old Pacificas selling for $24k right now. 

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The Pacifica oddly enough is the one of few FCA vehicles I would have no issue getting CPO.

Especially 2018 MY+ as they have finally gotten the 9 speed right with the newest model out as of late.

One thing I hope Chrysler does do, is make the future Pacifica Hybrid an AWD model with electric rear axle. That would be a great win, the only AWD minivan is the Sienna.

The Hybrid Pacifica is a better value than the Odyssey Elite. Sure you don't get LED lights and some other features, but you get 50% better mileage, and with tax incentives that if you can qualify for, will cost less.

 

 

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      $4.5 Billion to Build New Assembly Plant in Detroit and Add Production at Five Existing Michigan Facilities, Creating Nearly 6,500 Jobs
       
      FCA total committed investments in the U.S. grow to nearly $14.5 billion since 2009, with nearly 30,000 jobs created to date Investment would be next step in Company’s U.S. industrialization plan, announced in 2016 to expand Jeep® and Ram brands Introduces two new Jeep-branded “white space” products in key market segments Enables electrification of new Jeep models $1.6 billion investment would convert Mack Avenue Engine Complex into manufacturing site for next-generation Jeep Grand Cherokee and an all-new three-row full-size Jeep SUV, creating 3,850 new jobs $900 million investment at Jefferson North to retool and modernize plant for continued production of Dodge Durango and next-generation Jeep Grand Cherokee with 1,100 new jobs expected Warren Truck 2017 investment increases to $1.5 billion for production of all-new Jeep Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer, as well as continued assembly of Ram 1500 Classic with addition of 1,400 new jobs All three assembly sites would also produce plug-in hybrid versions of their respective Jeep models with flexibility to build fully battery-electric models in the future Sterling Stamping and Warren Stamping plants to receive more than $400 million total investment to support additional production, potentially creating about 80 new jobs at Sterling $119 million investment to relocate Pentastar engine production currently at Mack I to the Dundee Engine Plant; production at Mack would end by Q3 2019 Projects contingent on land acquisition and the negotiation of development incentives with the cities of Detroit, Sterling Heights, Warren, Dundee and state of Michigan City of Detroit has 60 days to deliver on commitments outlined in Memorandum of Understanding related to Mack and Jefferson North projects February 26, 2019 , London - Fiat Chrysler Automobiles N.V. (NYSE: FCAU / MTA: FCA) confirmed today plans to invest a total of $4.5 billion in five of its existing Michigan plants, and to work with the city of Detroit and state of Michigan on building a new assembly plant within city limits. The move would increase capacity to meet growing demand for its Jeep® and Ram brands, including production of two new Jeep-branded white space products, as well as electrified models. The proposed projects would create nearly 6,500 new jobs.

      The plant actions detailed in today’s announcement represent the next steps in a U.S. manufacturing realignment that FCA began in 2016. In response to a shift in consumer demand toward SUVs and trucks, the Company discontinued compact car production and retooled plants in Illinois, Ohio and Michigan to make full use of available capacity to expand the Jeep and Ram brands. Those actions have resulted in the recent launches of the award-winning all-new Jeep Wrangler and all-new Ram 1500, and the introduction of the newest member of the Jeep family, the all-new Jeep Gladiator, at the 2018 Los Angeles Auto Show.

      “Three years ago, FCA set a course to grow our profitability based on the strength of the Jeep and Ram brands by realigning our U.S. manufacturing operations,” said Mike Manley, Chief Executive Officer, FCA N.V. “Today’s announcement represents the next step in that strategy. It allows Jeep to enter two white space segments that offer significant margin opportunities and will enable new electrified Jeep products, including at least four plug-in hybrid vehicles and the flexibility to produce fully battery-electric vehicles.”

      The city of Detroit has 60 days to meet the terms of a Memorandum of Understanding, which requires the acquisition of property critical to the execution of the Mack project. The additional investments are subject to the successful negotiation and final approval of development packages with the state and other local governments.

      Plant Investment Details
      FCA would invest $1.6 billion to convert the two plants that comprise the Mack Avenue Engine Complex into the future assembly site for the next-generation Jeep Grand Cherokee, as well as an all-new three-row full-size Jeep SUV and plug-in hybrid (PHEV) models, adding 3,850 new jobs to support production. The Company intends to start construction of the new Detroit facility by the end of Q2 2019 with the first three-row vehicles expected to roll off the line by the end of 2020, followed by the all-new Grand Cherokee in the first half of 2021.

      Also as part of this announcement, the Jefferson North Assembly Plant would receive an investment of $900 million to retool and modernize the facility to build the Dodge Durango and next-generation Jeep Grand Cherokee. FCA expects to create 1,100 new jobs at Jefferson North.

      The reborn Mack facility would be the first new assembly plant to be built in the city of Detroit in nearly three decades. In 1991, Jefferson North was the last new assembly plant built in the city. When complete, Mack would join Jefferson North as the only automotive assembly plants to be located completely within the city limits of Detroit.

      The Pentastar engines – the 3.6-, 3.2- and 3.0-liter – currently built at Mack I would be relocated to the Dundee Engine Plant as part of a $119 million investment. Pentastar production at Mack I would end by Q3 2019. Mack II has been idle since it ceased production of the 3.7-liter V-6 in September 2012.

      FCA also confirms the investment at Warren Truck to retool for production of the all-new Jeep Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer, announced in 2017, along with their electrified counterparts, would increase to $1.5 billion. Production is expected to launch in early 2021. In addition to the new Jeep models, the plant would continue building the Ram 1500 Classic, which is being extended to meet market demand. It is expected that 1,400 new jobs would be added. As a result of this investment announcement, production of the all-new Ram Heavy Duty will continue at its current location in Saltillo, Mexico.

      To support the additional production, the Company’s Warren Stamping (Warren, Michigan) and Sterling Stamping (Sterling Heights, Michigan) plants would receive investments of $245 million and $160 million, respectively, with Sterling Stamping expected to add more than 80 new jobs.

      This investment is part of the Company's capital spending plan presented in June 2018.

      Realignment of FCA U.S. Manufacturing Operations
      Over the past two years, FCA has realigned production at four plants in Illinois, Ohio and Michigan to increase capacity for the Jeep Cherokee, Jeep Wrangler and Ram 1500 light-duty truck, and created additional manufacturing capacity for the Jeep Gladiator in Ohio.

      The investments included:  $350 million in the Belvidere Assembly Plant (Illinois) to produce the Jeep Cherokee, which moved from Toledo, Ohio, in 2017. More than 300 new jobs were added to support production, which launched in June 2017. $700 million in the Toledo Assembly Complex (Ohio) to retool the North plant to produce the next-generation Jeep Wrangler. Approximately 700 new jobs were added to support production, which began in December 2017. $1.48 billion in the Sterling Heights Assembly Plant (Michigan) to build the next-generation Ram 1500 truck, adding more than 700 new jobs. Production of the new truck began in March 2018. Production of the Ram 1500 Classic continues at Warren Truck (Michigan). $273 million in the south plant of the Toledo Assembly Complex to prepare the facility to produce the all-new Jeep Gladiator. The new truck is scheduled to launch in the first half of 2019.   In total, FCA has committed to invest nearly $14.5 billion in its U.S. manufacturing operations, creating nearly 30,000 new jobs since June 2009.
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