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New York 2018: 2019 Cadillac XT4 Kicks Off A Product Renaissance: Comments

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It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging. If the torque band is lower and more punchy then I hope that bears it out. They could be releasing the all new engine in lower tune to make sure it doesn't self destruct, or it's the guinea pig for real world durability testing before it gets rolled out to other models within GM. The mpg doesn't look like it benefits from the detuning so we will just have to see what the deal is when the vehicle actually hits the street. Usually new motors match their old specs and even can improve on mpg and reliability without any detuning. 

Edited by regfootball

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1 hour ago, regfootball said:

It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging.  . 

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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On 3/28/2018 at 11:55 AM, smk4565 said:

How can the CTS be 196 inches long and have a small back seat?

The exact same way the e-class has a small back seat.

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1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

This 2.0t is all-new.

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3 hours ago, regfootball said:

It's encouraging that GM has developed a new motor here but the power specs are not as encouraging. If the torque band is lower and more punchy then I hope that bears it out. They could be releasing the all new engine in lower tune to make sure it doesn't self destruct, or it's the guinea pig for real world durability testing before it gets rolled out to other models within GM. The mpg doesn't look like it benefits from the detuning so we will just have to see what the deal is when the vehicle actually hits the street. Usually new motors match their old specs and even can improve on mpg and reliability without any detuning. 

We really need to dispense with the horsepower as a benchmark thing. It's not doing any of us any favors to be fixated on it. Lots of torque, way down low, is the best, way to go.

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True but the current 2.0 is rated as high as 295 lb ft in some applications.  The new mill doesn't crank that amount out either.  

2 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

GM already has a 2.0 turbo 4.  Isn't this the same thing already in many GM models ?  Odd that it would be 237hp in the XT4, since it is already 250-275 hp in other models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#LTG

No I think this engine is new. 

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I wonder why they would do an all new 2.0. What would be the point.  

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27 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

I wonder why they would do an all new 2.0. What would be the point.  

Clean sheet redesign to improve a number of engineering aspects, in all likelihood. Cadillac's not wasting money here.

Ironically, they did the exact same thing in the '60s; the '63 390 was completely redesigned but came out with the same displacement. I believe there a major component of the redesign was to allow larger future displacements, but there were other criteria.

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I want to see lighter interior tones and better lighting. There was probably very little breathing room for this debut. 

 

I think the XT5 has a light brown interior option on some trims right? Where the dash, pillars, seats and doors are light brown. That is a good interior, I want to see the XT4 version of that.

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Plastic on the rear bumper yeah, not all over the place.  The Q5 has way less plastic on it than an XT4.  And if Cadillac has an exclusive 4 cylinder (which is sort of a waste of R&D dollars unless it runs super quiet or something) why does it make less power than an Chevy 4-cylinder?

Cadillac has 258 lb-ft at 1,500 rpm?

Mercedes GLC makes 273 lb-ft at 1,300 - 4,000 rpm

BMW X3 makes 258 lb- ft at 1,450 - 4,800 rpm

Audi Q5 273 lb-ft at 1,600 - 4,500 rpm

Not surprised by who has the most torque at the lowest RPM

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3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

We really need to dispense with the horsepower as a benchmark thing. It's not doing any of us any favors to be fixated on it. Lots of torque, way down low, is the best, way to go.

True, good thing someone is the BEST at doing that.

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9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

True, good thing someone is the BEST at doing that.

Still GM?

ATS 2.0T -295 lb-ft

 

Will you ever stop being a troll? A tuning decision is not indicative of engineering ability.

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This will actually be the third all-new 2.0t from GM. This new one has AFM.

As we see displacements congeal around even numbers, we'll see this happen more often. 

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

if an engine is redesigned, it can possibly be

-lighter or smaller to fit in engine bay easier

-simpler

-cheaper

-easier to manuf.

-incorporate new technologies

-more power

-better mpg

Edited by regfootball
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2 minutes ago, regfootball said:

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

Could be. The new V8 can run on as few as one cylinder in a revolution.

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There were engineering reasons for that. They added balance shafts to smooth out the previously rough engine.  Once they got that sorted out they started increasing hp again.

Also, about 10 years ago...

"In December 2008, GM released a Turbo Upgrade Kit for the LNF engine which increases horsepower to 290 hp (220 kW) and torque to up to 340 ft⋅lb (460 N⋅m), depending on the model. The kit retails for $650 and includes remapped engine calibration and upgraded MAP sensors. The kit is covered by the cars' existing GM warranties."

And before you try to play the CLA/GLA43 card SMK... It took MB 10 years to catch up to and exceed the power output of a 2008 Cobalt SS.

A tuning decision is a tuning decision. It is not a indicator of engineering ability when a company has already proven itself able. 

Power delivery also matters and nearly every review of the CLA complains of turbo lag. So a fat lot of good that extra lb-ft is doing when it takes an extra 3 clicks of the mouse to get it.

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11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Still GM?

ATS 2.0T -295 lb-ft

 

Will you ever stop being a troll? A tuning decision is not indicative of engineering ability.

CLA45? 355hp/332 lb-ft. 

11 hours ago, regfootball said:

i believe i read where it said this the AFM allows it to run on two cylinders?

if an engine is redesigned, it can possibly be

-simpler

Everything else you said is probably spot on but there is no simpler engines being made anymore. Everything is more and more complex.. you even mentioned the ability to run on 2cyl..lol 

Edited by ccap41

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I know you can tune an engine to any power level (within reason) but reliability and NVH go out the window if you extract more power than you should from an engine.

I have never driven a CLA, so I don't know what the turbo lag is like, but the M270 has a twin scroll turbo and makes 258 lb-ft @ 1,200 rpm so I can't imagine it is that bad.  And the M274 which is the sister engine to the CLA used in the C-class and GLC has very little lag and you don't really notice the turbo at all plus it won a Ward's 10 best engine award in 2017.  

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

CLA45? 355hp/332 lb-ft. 

 

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

Edited by smk4565

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13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Read my post after that.  GM was doing 340 lb-ft from a 2.0T 10 years ago. 

With a post-purchase modification. From GM or not. That's like saying the EcoBoost Mustangs are 335hp and 390 lb-ft with the Ford Performance tune for only $699. 

Depending what you want to believe from Ford...

 

2.3.PNG

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

They're still only FWD, right?  

They already probably have some trick system to get power down but upping that more they're going to have to re-configure that out too. 

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10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I know you can tune an engine to any power level (within reason) but reliability and NVH go out the window if you extract more power than you should from an engine.

I have never driven a CLA, so I don't know what the turbo lag is like, but the M270 has a twin scroll turbo and makes 258 lb-ft @ 1,200 rpm so I can't imagine it is that bad.  And the M274 which is the sister engine to the CLA used in the C-class and GLC has very little lag and you don't really notice the turbo at all plus it won a Ward's 10 best engine award in 2017.  

375 hp/350 lb-ft now.  And that is probably going up in 2019 with the new A-class line.  Although I think it pointless to increase it.  If you want more power buy an AMG C-class.  Interesting thing is they are planning an A35 with like 300 hp which could be a sweet spot for that car.

The NVH of the old 2.0T in the Cobalt was actually pretty good for its day. 

Again, you don't need to take my word for it... look at all the articles regarding the turbo lag in that car

AutoWeek - CLA Turbo Lag - Whether sport or economy mode is selected, the Mercedes always seemed to be a half-gear shy of where it should have been, and the combination of turbo lag and wonky clutch take-up makes smooth low-speed driving difficult. Once on the road there's plenty of power to get into trouble, so it's not a fundamental output issue -- rather it's a lack of refinement between the engine and transmission. 

Cars.com - CLA Turbo LagDespite the turbocharged four-cylinder engine's stout 208 horsepower and 258 pounds-feet of torque, excessive drivetrain lag sullies the CLA250. A sustained toe on the gas can induce gratifying low-end punch, where the little Benz surges ahead even at 2,000 rpm. The problem, however, is getting to all that.

MercedesBlog.com CLA AMG45 Turbo Lag - To obtain the high power of 381 HP and the high torque of 475 Nm, relatively small Mercedes turbo engine operates with a big turbo which delivers a maximum pressure of 1.8 bar. But a big turbo means a high inertia and a big turbo lag which you feel at full throttle.

Car and Driver - GLA Turbo Lag - In its default Comfort mode, sluggish shifts accentuate the engine’s turbo lag

Consumer Reports - GLA Turbo LagBut the seven-speed dual-clutch automatic is unrefined and, combined with the engine's turbo lag, makes the GLA feel lethargic despite its quick acceleration times.

So yea, you could use sport mode all the time, but that will kill your fuel economy.  The reviews above tell me that Mercedes is still a long way off from perfecting this engine into something that is satisfying to drive on a daily basis.  I would be disappointed in Cadillac if the XT4 came out with reviews like what you see above on the GLA/CLA. 

All Cadillac needs to do is tune it similar to the GMC Terrain and they have already beaten Mercedes.

Car and Driver - GMC Terrain Turbo LagOur all-wheel-drive turbocharged 2.0-liter test vehicle achieved the top acceleration figures among its competitive set. Credit the Terrain’s minimal turbo lag and plentiful power, as well as the nine-speed automatic transmission’s ability to drop down a couple of gears quickly with a simple boot of the throttle.

TruckTrend - GMC Terrain Turbo LagWith 252 hp and 260 lb-ft of torque, its output lags behind the 3.6L V-6 that was optional in the previous Terrain, but you’d never know it from behind the wheel, thanks in part to that nine-speed auto. With fleet off-the-line reflexes, minimal turbo lag, and excellent passing power, the 2.0 is a surprising engine to find in the competent—but rarely fun—compact SUV segment. 

 

Mercedes-Benz... the best or is there a GMC in the comparison?

 

 

5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

With a post-purchase modification. From GM or not. That's like saying the EcoBoost Mustangs are 335hp and 390 lb-ft with the Ford Performance tune for only $699. 

Depending what you want to believe from Ford...

 

2.3.PNG

Who cares? It is a dealer installed option fully supported by GM and covered by warranty.  It allows the buyer to choose a higher performance model that would require 92 octane or the more standard SS that can run on regular.  Same goes for the Mustang.   It is functionally the same choice as a CLA 250 or a CLA 43... Benz just makes two models out of it while GM lets you upgrade an existing model. (yes I know there are other upgrades on the 43 over the 250.)

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The CLA/GLA problem sounds more from the DCT transmission which I don’t know why they use in the first place rather than the fried and true 7-speed auto that they used from 2003 - 2018, and the 9-speed has replaced it in most cars now.

The GLC and C-class don’t have the lag and acceleration problems, a GLC300 can out accelerate a Terrain, not like it matters in that segment.  

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33 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CLA/GLA problem sounds more from the DCT transmission which I don’t know why they use in the first place rather than the fried and true 7-speed auto that they used from 2003 - 2018, and the 9-speed has replaced it in most cars now.

The GLC and C-class don’t have the lag and acceleration problems, a GLC300 can out accelerate a Terrain, not like it matters in that segment.  

Really? You don't know why they didn't use the automatic from the 2003-2018 era?

Put on your deerstalker cap there Sherlock..... maybe you'll figure it out. 

The question was never and is never about raw performance in these crossovers. It is about drivability around town the way 99.9999999% of people use them.  A jumpy, laggy engine transmission combo is not going to be as satisfying as one with low lag and no jumpiness.  

The XT4 will do better than the GLA there and still have plenty of scoot. 

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18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The XT4 will do better than the GLA there and still have plenty of scoot. 

I'd assume you're correct but those are just guesses at this point as we're talking transmissions now and nobody has driven this XT4 matched to the brand new engine. 

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      This action affects approximately 3,500 Ranger vehicles in North America, including approximately 3,000 in the United States and 500 in Canada. 
      Affected 2019 Ranger vehicles were built at Michigan Assembly Plant, June 4, 2018 to Jan. 9, 2019.
      Dealers will verify shifter interlock functionality by attempting to move the transmission shifter out of park with the vehicle off and without a foot on the brake pedal. If the shifter moves out of park, dealers will look for wiring interference, relocate the wiring and retest. The Ford reference number for this recall is 19C02.
    • By William Maley
      Only a few months after closing it down, Cadillac is bringing back their Book subscription program. Expected to launch in the second quarter, the revised program will be bringing in their dealers to play a key role.
      "Book 2.0 really works even more closely with our dealer network because we think there's a lot of opportunity as you go forward. We're going to base it off the dealer network," said Cadillac marketing chief Deborah Wahl.
      "We have to recognize that all of us — from the manufacturers to the dealer networks — we have to evolve our models to keep up with where consumers are."
      The first phase of the program launch will see a small number of pilot programs launch in select cities. Interestingly, New York which was one of the first markets for the original Book will not be involved for the time being according to Wahl.
      Cadillac was one the first automakers to launch a subscription program back in March 2017. For $1,800 per month, a subscriber could pick from a number of Cadillac vehicles and swap in/out with no long-term commitment. The fee also covered various items such as maintenance and insurance. But Cadillac surprised everyone when it announced they would be shuttering Book back in November.
      “We are hitting the pause button for a brief time to make some tweaks to Book [by Cadillac] based on our learnings,” a spokesman for GM said at the time.
      It was unclear why Book closed down. Cadillac said there was a small group of customers that took advantage of swapping vehicles. There was also talk that certain aspects of the system, such as the back-end became a bit too costly. Dealers were not too happy about not being involved in this program. Cadillac handled many of the details such as delivery and service.
      Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

      View full article
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