October 2018: Ford Motor Company

[William Maley]

Ford SUV Sales On Record Pace – Expedition Up 74.7 Percent, Explorer Up 12.5 Percent; F-Series Passes 70,000-Truck Mark For Eighth Straight Month; Lincoln Navigator Up 70.0 Percent

[ccap41]

Not the greatest across the board but nice to see some things are up, lol. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Ecosport is doing nicely for them.

[David]

Lincoln is ugly, without the Navigator sales, the group would be just about dead.

[smk4565]

Take off 30,000 car sales next year and these numbers will look even worse.  Lincoln is about dead in the water, the Navigator is supposed to be their star and it is their 4th best seller (granted it is their most expensive).  There will be a new GLS and the X7 on sale soon, a new Escalade at some point, this Navigator probably won't see an update until 2023, by 2020 it will be back to selling 700 units a month and basically a non factor. 

[Suaviloquent]

On 11/1/2018 at 10:06 PM, smk4565 said:

Take off 30,000 car sales next year and these numbers will look even worse.  Lincoln is about dead in the water, the Navigator is supposed to be their star and it is their 4th best seller (granted it is their most expensive).  There will be a new GLS and the X7 on sale soon, a new Escalade at some point, this Navigator probably won't see an update until 2023, by 2020 it will be back to selling 700 units a month and basically a non factor. 

Are you forgetting about the new Aviator? That thing is baller and nobody has anything nearly as prestige garnering or athletic utility looking as that thing except Land Rover’s Velar.

 

The Navigotor is printing money for Lincoln as they raised ATP’s by $30,000 in one generation.

 

 

 

 

[David]

12 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Are you forgetting about the new Aviator? That thing is baller and nobody has anything nearly as prestige garnering or athletic utility looking as that thing except Land Rover’s Velar.

The Navigotor is printing money for Lincoln as they raised ATP’s by $30,000 in one generation.

I do think that their saving grace would come in the form of their new CUV/SUV lineup. If they can get it out fast enough to capitalize on the CUV craze before our next recession hits.

[smk4565]

16 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

Are you forgetting about the new Aviator? That thing is baller and nobody has anything nearly as prestige garnering or athletic utility looking as that thing except Land Rover’s Velar.

 

The Navigotor is printing money for Lincoln as they raised ATP’s by $30,000 in one generation.

 

 

 

 

The Aviator isn't on sale yet, and the Navigator is selling about 1,000 units per month.  Where as other vehicles in that segment such as the GLS or Escalade that are much older can  easily sell at double that rate.    The Navigator starts at $73,000, it maxes at $100k, and there are plenty of SUV's that cost way more than that.  

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/4/2018 at 2:47 PM, smk4565 said:

The Aviator isn't on sale yet, and the Navigator is selling about 1,000 units per month.  Where as other vehicles in that segment such as the GLS or Escalade that are much older can  easily sell at double that rate.    The Navigator starts at $73,000, it maxes at $100k, and there are plenty of SUV's that cost way more than that.  

The Aviator and Navigator are exactly what Ford needs to build to survive and keep the Brand fresh. Look...I am a harsh critic of Ford....and even I think they got those two just dead right.

On 11/4/2018 at 10:37 AM, dfelt said:

I do think that their saving grace would come in the form of their new CUV/SUV lineup. If they can get it out fast enough to capitalize on the CUV craze before our next recession hits.

Their larger SUV's seem to be doing fine.

[ccap41]

On 11/4/2018 at 1:47 PM, smk4565 said:

The Aviator isn't on sale yet, and the Navigator is selling about 1,000 units per month.  Where as other vehicles in that segment such as the GLS or Escalade that are much older can  easily sell at double that rate.    The Navigator starts at $73,000, it maxes at $100k, and there are plenty of SUV's that cost way more than that.  

The GLS is not in the same league as the 'Slade or 'Gator. 

11 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The Aviator and Navigator are exactly what Ford needs to build to survive and keep the Brand fresh. Look...I am a harsh critic of Ford....and even I think they got those two just dead right.

Their larger SUV's seem to be doing fine.

I'd argue they are all doing "fine". They might not be leading sales in their respective segments but none of them are towards the bottom, as far as I know. 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The Aviator and Navigator are exactly what Ford needs to build to survive and keep the Brand fresh. Look...I am a harsh critic of Ford....and even I think they got those two just dead right.

Their larger SUV's seem to be doing fine.

I do think the Aviator looks like it will do well and is a huge upgrade over stuff like the MKT or MKX.  The Navigator looks better and they did a good upgrade to it to get it more competitive, but look at the sales of it.  Navigator has averaged about 1,000 per month all year, the Escalade easily does 2500 and is getting dated, the GLS does over 2000 per month and has been on market about 7 years without a lot of changes.  The Navigator barely outsells the Continental and the Continental is on it's death bed due to low sales.

[ccap41]

Shocker, SMK doesn't think a vehicle will do well that isn't German or Mercedes. 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The GLS is not in the same league as the 'Slade or 'Gator. 

 

It is a higher league?  The Escalade and Navigator are slow, poor handling, body on frame SUVs.  The GLS has up to 577 hp and stuff like independent rear suspension which the Escalade is lacking.  The GLS also offers an off road package, the other 2 do not.

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Shocker, SMK doesn't think a vehicle will do well that isn't German or Mercedes. 

I do think the Aviator will do well.  They sell a lot of Exploers and have for years, you get some of those people to move up to Aviator, and get some MKX/Nautilus drivers to move up, and steal some Acura MDX drivers (which sells well) and Lincoln should be able to stir up about 3,000 Aviator sales a month.

[balthazar]

Nobody takes a GLS offroad, so that's useless. Might as well throw a fly rod bumper rack into the package.
Quick googling showed the Escalade doing 0-60 in 5.8 and the GLS doing it in 5.7.

[David]

49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Escalade and Navigator are slow, poor handling, body on frame SUVs.  The GLS has up to 577 hp and stuff like independent rear suspension which the Escalade is lacking.  The GLS also offers an off road package, the other 2 do not.

You show your ignorance with this section. The Escalade holds it's own, it does handle off road with no problems. I have taken in places most would never consider and still got back to paved city streets.

.1 second is not noticeable by everyone. If the GLS is so superior it would outsell the Escalade. Yet this body on frame true full size SUV does hold its own and surpasses in that category you always point at. 

Sales!

[smk4565]

54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Nobody takes a GLS offroad, so that's useless. Might as well throw a fly rod bumper rack into the package.
Quick googling showed the Escalade doing 0-60 in 5.8 and the GLS doing it in 5.7.

A V6 GLS yes, but the V8 is 5.2 seconds and the AMG is 4.5 seconds 0-60.  And those should improve next year with the new model.  

99% of GLS owners may not go off road but the point is they have the ability to, they engineered that in.  Just like they tested it on the Nürburgring for handling.  They go the extra step, the Navigator at the end of the day is an Expedition with 30 way seats and the turbo boost turned up.

30 minutes ago, dfelt said:

You show your ignorance with this section. The Escalade holds it's own, it does handle off road with no problems. I have taken in places most would never consider and still got back to paved city streets.

.1 second is not noticeable by everyone. If the GLS is so superior it would outsell the Escalade. Yet this body on frame true full size SUV does hold its own and surpasses in that category you always point at. 

Sales!

The Escalde would get crushed off road by a Range Rover or GLS, I have seen enough Top Gears and car shows to see those things struggle off road.  

In global sales the GLS wins easy, I know we are talking American market sales, the GLS out sold the previous generation Escalade, it does not now.  I do think Mercedes needs to step it up on the new model, the current GLS is way old, and not in a good way like the G-Wagen where the older it got the better it sold.

[Cmicasa the Great]

IRS comes to the Escalade next gen.. to answer a question that no buyer of a $100K+ SUV ever asked as they were picking up their latte from Starbucks or the delicate flower of a woman they chose to f@#k around on.. The most off-road these vehicles see is when the blacktop covered roads of this great country get blanketed with snow.. My Yukon, along with its sisters and cross town cousin from Ford have no problem with that. If GM wanted to beat all of the other SUVs at OFF-ROAD.. they really wouldn't have to go far to do it. Hell.. the ZR2 Colorado is a beast.. and from what I'm hearing.. who knows.. they may create an SUV off this

 

[Suaviloquent]

The thing about the American SUVs is that their BOF construction makes towing/hauling far more comfortable and enjoyable.

 

Escalade sales are padded by livery services. The Navigator is Lincoln’s flagship. It was profitable in the previous gen and is a serious contender now.

[David]

32 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

The thing about the American SUVs is that their BOF construction makes towing/hauling far more comfortable and enjoyable.

You nailed it on the Head, if you are wanting Luxury with Towing capabilities proven over millions of miles. The Escalade or Navigator is your SUV. I would NOT trust the GLS to tow up and over a pass or do really any heavy towing. The focus as @smk4565 has pointed out is driving dynamics.

• GLS is 7500 lbs towing
• Escalade is 8300 lbs towing
• Navigator is 6200 lbs towing

I suspect the Navigator is under rated as we all know the underside is a Ford Truck. I honestly am surprised by the under rated towing of the Lincoln.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

You nailed it on the Head, if you are wanting Luxury with Towing capabilities proven over millions of miles. The Escalade or Navigator is your SUV. I would NOT trust the GLS to tow up and over a pass or do really any heavy towing. The focus as @smk4565 has pointed out is driving dynamics.

• GLS is 7500 lbs towing
• Escalade is 8300 lbs towing
• Navigator is 6200 lbs towing

I suspect the Navigator is under rated as we all know the underside is a Ford Truck. I honestly am surprised by the under rated towing of the Lincoln.

Ford plays it safe here I think...could probably safely tow more.

[David]

4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Ford plays it safe here I think...could probably safely tow more.

Or it could be due to the TTV6 over a V8 of the old Navigator. Last generation Navigator had a 8200 or 9000 lb towing capacity depending on standard or extended length. So this is a big drop in Towing compared to last generation so I think you are correct that they are playing it safe on the TTV6 for now.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

You nailed it on the Head, if you are wanting Luxury with Towing capabilities proven over millions of miles. The Escalade or Navigator is your SUV. I would NOT trust the GLS to tow up and over a pass or do really any heavy towing. The focus as @smk4565 has pointed out is driving dynamics.

• GLS is 7500 lbs towing
• Escalade is 8300 lbs towing
• Navigator is 6200 lbs towing

I suspect the Navigator is under rated as we all know the underside is a Ford Truck. I honestly am surprised by the under rated towing of the Lincoln.

The GLS has the most torque in that segment, what is not to trust?  And the G63 has as 627 lb-ft and that engine/transmission combo will go into the 2020 GLS.  

I also suspect towing capability is rather low on the priority list of luxury SUV buyers.  The Infiniti QX56 tows 8,500 lbs, how does that thing sell?

[David]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The GLS has the most torque in that segment, what is not to trust?  And the G63 has as 627 lb-ft and that engine/transmission combo will go into the 2020 GLS.  

I also suspect towing capability is rather low on the priority list of luxury SUV buyers.  The Infiniti QX56 tows 8,500 lbs, how does that thing sell?

Two different kind of buyers. MB buyers probably never think of an RV trailer, road trips or any real towing, they have their status of driving a GLS and then fly away to a vacation and pay to use toys on location. Escalade and Navigator buyers tend to think of road trips, towing, be it RV trailers, boats, PWC, ATV, etc. here on the west coast I never see an MB off road or towing. Yet I see plenty of Navigators and Escalades towing. 

MB just ticked off a check box for a we want Torque to be XYZ. In reality, they know their buyers never probably tow.

I doubt you ever would ask yourself, but people who do think about towing will tend to take body on frame over unibody everyday.

[Suaviloquent]

HP and torque ratings do not a trailering or hauling capability make.

 

What’s funny SMK is that the higher output AMG versions of the vehicles you mentioned are probably rated to tow much less if at all than just the GLS 550.

 

in terms of pure baller ness and exclusivity, the Navigator is the ride to get. The Escalade gets major props for being that ride. The GLS is more car-like. And it’s driven more like a car and less like a truck. If you’re saying that a GLS driver won’t sweat bullets towing over 7000 pounds you’re kidding yourself. The Navigator gets pro trailer backup assist and both the American trucks get allmost all other truck feature.

[David]

6 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

HP and torque ratings do not a trailering or hauling capability make.

 

What’s funny SMK is that the higher output AMG versions of the vehicles you mentioned are probably rated to tow much less if at all than just the GLS 550.

 

in terms of pure baller ness and exclusivity, the Navigator is the ride to get. The Escalade gets major props for being that ride. The GLS is more car-like. And it’s driven more like a car and less like a truck. If you’re saying that a GLS driver won’t sweat bullets towing over 7000 pounds you’re kidding yourself. The Navigator gets pro trailer backup assist and both the American trucks get allmost all other truck feature.

Just looked online at MB web site, the G-Wagen AMG G63 is rated at 7,000 lbs or 500 lbs less than the GLS. 

I totally agree with you that a GLS driver will be sweating bullets trying to tow compared to a Navigator L or Escalade ESV owner.

[David]

This totally rocks, WOW, I actually like the chimes that are in the Aviator from the Detroit Symphony. 

28 second into the video you hear one of the many different chimes that will be in this new CUV.

[David]

Ford beats Hellcat. Wonder how much is the driver skill? 🤔

Either way, America is winning on the strip!

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Suaviloquent said:

HP and torque ratings do not a trailering or hauling capability make.

 

What’s funny SMK is that the higher output AMG versions of the vehicles you mentioned are probably rated to tow much less if at all than just the GLS 550.

 

in terms of pure baller ness and exclusivity, the Navigator is the ride to get. The Escalade gets major props for being that ride. The GLS is more car-like. And it’s driven more like a car and less like a truck. If you’re saying that a GLS driver won’t sweat bullets towing over 7000 pounds you’re kidding yourself. The Navigator gets pro trailer backup assist and both the American trucks get allmost all other truck feature.

The AMG has a 7500 lb tow rating.  So in fact, a GLS63 could probably tow a Navigator and go 0-60 faster than a Navigator can get itself from 0-60.

As far as what ballers drive, it is this because it has side pipe exhaust:

And it is body on frame and tows more than a Navigator.

 

Some other towing capacities:

Mercedes GLE: 7200 lbs

Cadillac XT5:  3500 lbs

Lincoln Nautilis: 3000 lbs

Why are Lincoln and Cadillac so far behind if they are so focused on towing needs of Americans?

Edited November 7, 2018 by smk4565

[David]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The AMG has a 7500 lb tow rating.  So in fact, a GLS63 could probably tow a Navigator and go 0-60 faster than a Navigator can get itself from 0-60.

As far as what ballers drive, it is this because it has side pipe exhaust:

And it is body on frame and tows more than a Navigator.

 

Some other towing capacities:

Mercedes GLE: 7200 lbs

Cadillac XT5:  3500 lbs

Lincoln Nautilis: 3000 lbs

Why are Lincoln and Cadillac so far behind if they are so focused on towing needs of Americans?

You truly live in a warped world. Comparison was just body on frame and you brought in the GLS. 

Comparison was GLS to Escalade and Navigator. YOU brought this up. The Unibody lower units never were brought up till now and you are trying to put out FAKE NEWS.

G63 on the MBUSA site is 7,000, the Regular G-Wagen is 7500. 

Talk about moving the fence posts to meet your own story.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Nobody takes a GLS offroad, so that's useless. Might as well throw a fly rod bumper rack into the package.
Quick googling showed the Escalade doing 0-60 in 5.8 and the GLS doing it in 5.7.

The new Gator did it in 5.5 per C/D

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, dfelt said:

Or it could be due to the TTV6 over a V8 of the old Navigator. Last generation Navigator had a 8200 or 9000 lb towing capacity depending on standard or extended length. So this is a big drop in Towing compared to last generation so I think you are correct that they are playing it safe on the TTV6 for now.

Per Lincoln's website:

Navigator 4x2: 8700lbs 

Navigator 4x4: 8300lbs

Navigator L 4x2: 8400lbs

Navigator L 4x4 8100lbs

11 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

What’s funny SMK is that the higher output AMG versions of the vehicles you mentioned are probably rated to tow much less if at all than just the GLS 550.

Correct, the GLS63 per Mercedes' website is rated at 7500lbs. 

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, dfelt said:

Ford beats Hellcat. Wonder how much is the driver skill? 🤔

Either way, America is winning on the strip!

 

I think it is safe to say that once a car is running 13.0 (and it isn't some AWD w/ auto trans)or quicker it is almost all driver skill.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Per Lincoln's website:

Navigator 4x2: 8700lbs 

Navigator 4x4: 8300lbs

Navigator L 4x2: 8400lbs

Navigator L 4x4 8100lbs

Correct, the GLS63 per Mercedes' website is rated at 7500lbs. 

And I personally have never seen an Escalade, Navigator or GLS with a trailer behind it.  Although I also don't do cross country driving in the midwest where that may happen.  But I feel like tow rating is about 50th on the list of considerations for which of these 3 to buy.  

[ccap41]

I have definitely seen Escalades and Navigators with car trailers at tracks.

I would wager interior space is close to the top of the list. and 0-60 being a tenth or three is also low on the list. They're all quick enough to make passing a breeze. 

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And I personally have never seen an Escalade, Navigator or GLS with a trailer behind it.  Although I also don't do cross country driving in the midwest where that may happen.  But I feel like tow rating is about 50th on the list of considerations for which of these 3 to buy.  

Same Model and year as my escalade but this is a very common site around the PNW.

 

[Robert Hall]

When I was at Porsche Rennsport Reunion at Laguna Seca in 2011 and 2014 I recall many of the racecar haulers being Suburbans and Escalades.   Same thing at the San Diego Coronado Festival of Speed (those were really fun events)...

Edited November 7, 2018 by Robert Hall

[David]

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

When I was at Porsche Rennsport Reunion at Laguna Seca in 2011 and 2014 I recall many of the racecar haulers being Suburbans and Escalades.   

I have seen that too at Evergreen Speedway here that the bulk of the auto's hauling the race cars are Escalades, Navigators, Yukon XL or Suburbans.

I doubt anyone driving a Mercedes benz would be seen at these venues. 

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

I have seen that too at Evergreen Speedway here that the bulk of the auto's hauling the race cars are Escalades, Navigators, Yukon XL or Suburbans.

I doubt anyone driving a Mercedes benz would be seen at these venues. 

I did see a couple GLS diesels w/ trailers.   

[David]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I did see a couple GLS diesels w/ trailers.   

Yea, I could see the GLS diesel, but I doubt a G-Wagen would be there. LOL

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

Yea, I could see the GLS diesel, but I doubt a G-Wagen would be there. LOL

Nah, G-wagens are for going to Dairy Queen in Scottsdale.  (True story--I was in the Dairy Queen drive thru in Scottsdale a few years ago---G-wagen AMG in front of me, one behind me with an SL AMG behind it...)

[David]

15 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Nah, G-wagens are for going to Dairy Queen in Scottsdale.  (True story--I was in the Dairy Queen drive thru in Scottsdale a few years ago---G-wagen AMG in front of me, one behind me with an SL AMG behind it...)

Every soccer moms dream! 

[A Horse With No Name]

On 11/6/2018 at 10:32 PM, dfelt said:

This totally rocks, WOW, I actually like the chimes that are in the Aviator from the Detroit Symphony. 

28 second into the video you hear one of the many different chimes that will be in this new CUV.

This is pure hotness. Navigator is indeed top of the heap. 

 

On 11/7/2018 at 1:36 PM, dfelt said:

Same Model and year as my escalade but this is a very common site around the PNW.

 

...and towing trailers much larger in Kentucky horse country. 

On 11/7/2018 at 1:54 PM, Robert Hall said:

Nah, G-wagens are for going to Dairy Queen in Scottsdale.  (True story--I was in the Dairy Queen drive thru in Scottsdale a few years ago---G-wagen AMG in front of me, one behind me with an SL AMG behind it...)

My sons Fiancee wants a G Wagen so bad she can taste it....I don't see the appeal myself. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by A Horse With No Name

[balthazar]

On 11/7/2018 at 9:06 AM, ccap41 said:

The new Gator did it in 5.5 per C/D

OK, but of course 0.3 sec diff 0-60 won't sell One Single More unit to a segment shopper.

[ccap41]

 

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OK, but of course 0.3 sec diff 0-60 won't sell One Single More unit to a segment shopper.

Correct. That's why I also said this >

On 11/7/2018 at 11:25 AM, ccap41 said:

I would wager interior space is close to the top of the list. and 0-60 being a tenth or three is also low on the list.

 

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

My sons Fiancee wants a G Wagen so bad she can taste it....I don't see the appeal myself. 

They're such a great size. They're not too big. They're not small. I also love the look of them. 

[balthazar]

^ Still doin' that whole retro look thing- I guess it works for a few hundred sales/mnth.

[A Horse With No Name]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

OK, but of course 0.3 sec diff 0-60 won't sell One Single More unit to a segment shopper.

As enthusiasts though in some ways we are spoiled rotten by modern Iron. That is blisteringly quick.

Now if someone woyld just dump say a 455 into something like a late 50s Buick and get it on the road we would be in business. 

[balthazar]

11 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Now if someone woyld just dump say a 455 into something like a late 50s Buick and get it on the road we would be in business. 

Workin' on it. BTW- I will be dropping my 0-60 time from circa 10.0 secs to circa 3.0 secs.