GM News: Unifor Drops Some Print Ads on GM's Doorstep

[oldshurst442]

12 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

THE PERCEPTION THAT FOREIGN WAS/IS BETTER WAS A BUNCH OF BULL$#!+!!! 

I agree with this 10000000%

The problem is guys, this negative stigma that American cars have is also 10000000000% real. 

You asked me a question Casa. Compared to whom were these American cars crap/junk?

To us , Casa. To us! 

Just because Japanese cars and German cars were shyttier than American cars, then and now, does not mean that the Big 3, (yes the Big 3, because THAT is what it used to be..) that they should have built shytty x-platfom cars (The Citation II and its siblings,  The Vega, The Pinto,  the Cadillac Cimarron, (Cadillac deserved better that that...yes, it was no different than a BMW 3 Series, yet did Cadillac need to stoop that low to have a car in everybody's garage, and even if the answer is yes, did it have to be on the J platform? And if yes to that too, did it have to be a blatant copy paste of the Cavalier?)  Badge engineering was not the bad part of GM, but what was was the countless of leaking head gaskets of several engines...The DOHC 3.4, the OHV 3.4, the Quad 4, the Northstar...

I have been on both sides of this argument, Casa.

We've never really butted heads, here or over at MTForums,  because we have been on the same page. We do have the same opinion on this matter.

From hating self-hating Americans that will never seem to give American cars or anything built in America a fair chance (unless its a foreign based company that builds here) to trolls that hate on American cars just because.  We also agree that German cars and Japanese cars are probably, throughout history, have had a WORSE record of quality and reliability than American cars.

Where we differ is that I will NOT defend GM/Ford/Chryco for the times that they did build crap...as you do. And rightfully so that you defend them.  It is YOUR (and mine-Canada) country's industry!!!  The Japanese people and the German people and the Chinese now, look at their car industry with pride and defend feverishly.

But on the other hand, these self hating Americans also have a right to hate on the Big 3. For the Big 3 did take their loyalty they once had, and just took that for granted.  Maybe they should start defending it now though...

And this is where we are in this thread. 

 

 

 

 

[David]

7 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Don't wait for me to apologize.  ICE is not the past, it is the present, and the future for the vast majority of the automotive market.  Way too many compromises with electrics.  Mere toys.

First off EVs are NOT TOYS!

Sedcond, for the size and what is currently offered, there is no compromises with electrics, they have beaten many times ICE auto's.

Third, ICE is the present, will become a dwindling of the future in YOUR LIFE TIME!

18 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Thanks for the information.  I was proven wrong on that subject. 

 

That does lead me to one question: if there was no UAW (and no collective bargaining), how fast would those nonunion wages come down from their current levels?

I believe there is enough competition for competent assembly line workers to keep wages inline. Too much info and protective rights especially for companies from socialist Europe to try and go rock bottom cheap wages. Quality will keep things in check I believe.

[oldshurst442]

12 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

n truth.. If Americans and Canadians want more GM vehicles built in America, say Detroit-Ham or Lordstown, they should have made certain that the vehicles built there were the number one vehicles you saw when you entered the area at least. People at Fairfax should be currently buying Malibus by the dozen. I mean that. The only thing one could perhaps cry about would be the lack of a V6, which is a ball drop on GM for not putting marketing in place to let it be known that the 2.0L was a viable and better alternative to the 3.6L, with more torque allowing for almost identical acceleration. The quality, content and styling of that vehicle in no way is inferior to a Camry or Accord, although I would say many nit-pick a GM product to the brink of it slitting its own risk versus a Asian or Euro product. By that I mean I have witnessed many giving a pass on the overall shoddy engineering of a Range Rover's powertrain, but hold it in higher regard over an Escalade due to CUE not having buttons. But that's the mentality of Americans/Canadians. The standard is so high, but the product must be so cheap for Domestic makers. 

There is an article over on, of all places, TRUTH ABOUT CARS, a publication that has historically hated GM while simultaneously boosting Toyota and the like.. The article (another one) essentially gives a glowing review of the CADILLAC CT6.. yet when U read some of the comments after the review.. trollish people are putting the car down for the most bullcrap reasons. Some actually admitting mistakenly I'm sure, that they had never even sat in one let alone driven one. Saying they would not pay $100K for the car, while at  the same time saying they would pay $100K for an Audi A8 or 7Series. I mean.. Do you really think a BMW 550 is worth $10,000 more than a CTS VSport? $35,000 Toyota Avalon worth more than the $28,000 Chevy Impala? Seriously I PRAY that someone is able to get thru to GM to keep production going on that car.. even if its moved to another plant. It is literally one of the beacons of drawing in conquest sales.. of course marketing would help. The link for the review is below.

And again, I agree with this part of your post 100000000%

And in reality, if you read my previous posts, if you read between the lines, I am saying EXACTLY that...

The difference is that in your post, you are defending GM and not mentioning the reasons why all these publications cater to the hatred of American cars. I mentioned the reasons why.

Ill go further though, in saying why these publications cater to the hatred.

Advertising dollars that the foreign makes paid just for them to belittle American cars...

And all that fueled the negative stigma that the Big 3 STILL have to endure today.

However, this negative stigma does not seem to have spilled over to the CUVs and SUVs.

Maybe, finally, the hatred of the American automobile is finally gone. With the near death of the car in the USA, and the CUV/SUV reality we have today, that negative stigma gets put to rest. 

[oldshurst442]

22 hours ago, balthazar said:

You should know me by now- I'm a facts-based guy. I read 'perceived' all the time- it's vapor. 'People' think toyootas are great, they're not; I dismiss the perception. 'People' think GM's are garbage, they're not; I dismiss the perception as a waste of time. People think all sorts of things all the time ---Oh no; a black cat!!--- people can (and should) do better.

I don't care how many CT6s Cadillac sells, it's not the point of the brand. If it's an excellent car befitting of it's position and it's profitable, they can sell 100/yr. Eldorados of the Golden Age sold in perilously low numbers.

So far, and in constricted language, the assembly plants in question are "unallocated" beyond 2019. I have read this is due to UAW agreement terms. But recall that the CTS jumped assembly plants (IIRC)- all the articles I saw were assuming the CT6 was being cancelled; what if it is getting moved instead? LGR is getting heavily retooled as we speak. We'll see what happens...

Yeah, I do know you quite well, Balthy.  Fom all the guys Ive talked to on  automotive forums, and there has been plenty, you Balthy, are a top 5 poster for me on the level of respect I have for you.  Although it did not seem that way the way I responded to you the last couple of times, that was me just being me...sometimes goofy. Sometimes funny. Sometimes to the direct and to the point. 

And yes, I too am a fact-based guy. The thing is, perception is not vapor when perception rules how a society thinks and lives their lives ( the overly PC world we currently live in ) , how we buy products to consume and eat (veganism is the new fad that is gaining a lot of steam and well, the basis of this thread...like you said...people think Toyotas are great while GM cars are crap...its a reality that exists) and elects their leaders (Trump, Brexit, in Quebec the liberal leadership of 4 years that saw Quebec actually get back in the black only to elect a pseudo separatist party but they do not want to push that....because Quebecois do not want that, but just in case...)

CT6s do not sell well.

Continentals even less.

Im not concerned how many CT6s sell. But I am concerned at the money GM spent on it though...only to cancel it.  Wrong assumption that the CT6 is canceled?  Quite possible.  

But the leaders of GM are going full steam ahead with...EVs. (pun intended even if the pun is about differing energies)

What should be concerning you, Balthy, with GM, is that GM is willing to ditch a model with mediocre sales for a product that will, according to you even, will be selling less as EVs are what, not even 1% of total auto sales in the US?

GM it seems, is having more faith in EVs than they do for the CT6?  Im a believer in EV cars being the future faster than most people think it will be and yet, even I do not think that ditching the CT6 is a smart idea as even I think EVs are not gonna replace the ICE cars tomorrow. In other words, I do not think an EV Cadillac will be more successful in the market place than a CT6. Cadillac's marketing is horrid. Cadillac's marketing wont convince Telsa buyers to buy an EV Cadillac...

 

[balthazar]

CT6 sold 7,270 units thru Sept. In the same period, the bmw 7 sold 6,126 units and the audi a8 sold a mere 656 units.

Is it a 'perception that exists therefore it's reality' that the CT6 "doesn't sell well", or merely an erroneous judgement that exists, instead? Where should the CT6 sales level be at, or is it a matter of 'the CT6 doesn't sell well, the 7-series sells even worse and the a8 sells abysmally poorly'? Because I read these judgemental calls on the CT6 sales performance frequently and I am always left wondering- where is the poster's opinion of other large luxury sedan sales? Have you read a single comment on the A8/S8's dismal sales in any review? Ever? Why are these foreign brands somehow rendered immune to the same mainstream volume template?
- - - - -
Plug in EVs will be about 350K units in the US for 2018 (313K thru November). US total vehicle sales thru Nov are at 15,646,xxx. 313K out of 15,646K is 2.0%. Yes, sales are growing, but people HAVE to be cognisant of the fact that despite the recent growth, the SHARE is still really really really tiny. And again I am brought back around to the CT6 sales performance. The same template applied to EVs would constantly bemoan how they 'don't sell well' and 'are unprofitable', but that's barely an uncommon whisper. I for one am not willing to sit here and ignore the facts like so many others.

EVs may one day eclipse IC vehicles in this country. The chances are quite real, I believe. Will they ever put the IC totally out of the picture? I strongly doubt it. Will they exceed 50% of the market? They have a decent chance, but it absolutely won't be in 10 years. If you follow the plot line, that event is a good 30 years in the future, minimum, and despite all the water cooler / podcast buzz. It takes time to see consumer product growth, esp when the bulk of the segment is priced so much higher than the average vehicle price. People who believe 'EV dominance' is a 10-year event are being totally unrealistic at this point.

[ocnblu]

8 hours ago, dfelt said:

First off EVs are NOT TOYS!

??? What do you even mean?  Of course they are! 

[Cmicasa the Great]

to anyone questioning my post.. and as soon as Toyota decided to finally break from their tired old old old old Corolla formula.. and put something "new" in it.. it breaks. Toyota RECALLS NEW COROLLA FOR CVT ISSUES

 

19 hours ago, balthazar said:

CT6 sold 7,270 units thru Sept. In the same period, the bmw 7 sold 6,126 units and the audi a8 sold a mere 656 units.

Is it a 'perception that exists therefore it's reality' that the CT6 "doesn't sell well", or merely an erroneous judgement that exists, instead? Where should the CT6 sales level be at, or is it a matter of 'the CT6 doesn't sell well, the 7-series sells even worse and the a8 sells abysmally poorly'? Because I read these judgemental calls on the CT6 sales performance frequently and I am always left wondering- where is the poster's opinion of other large luxury sedan sales? Have you read a single comment on the A8/S8's dismal sales in any review? Ever? Why are these foreign brands somehow rendered immune to the same mainstream volume template?
-

See.. That's exactly what  I was saying in another thread. WHAT EXACTLY IS GM's EXPECTATION, and why does the media try to see anything that is not selling on the level of the Camry as a failure. Technically the CT6 is the best selling of the larger Luxos.. Even if U only used the same price point level as a starting LS460.. I'd bet it would still be selling more than it

[balthazar]

Every 'journalistic' musing on GM is ALWAYS put thru the filter of 'volume'. It's like people expecting a Ford to only be available in black.

[A Horse With No Name]

10 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Every 'journalistic' musing on GM is ALWAYS put thru the filter of 'volume'. It's like people expecting a Ford to only be available in black.

You mean Fords are available in colors...?

Even the model T iirc was offered in colors other than black. Model A had a nice selection of OEM colors.

[David]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

You mean Fords are available in colors...?

Even the model T iirc was offered in colors other than black. Model A had a nice selection of OEM colors.

All variations of Black!  

[Cmicasa the Great]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Every 'journalistic' musing on GM is ALWAYS put thru the filter of 'volume'. It's like people expecting a Ford to only be available in black.

I agree. It makes little sense.. but in truth.. GM's response and admission of defeat, even when they are winning, makes little sense either.  I've seen more CT6s on the damn road since their announcement then I did before. They looks so stately.. YES, a larger CTS, but with more handsome proportions. I feel like it would look even better with standard 22 inch rims. Anyway... The more I see the Cruze vs the Sonic the more I see why they are discontinuing it It makes no sense in these two vehicles selling at the same time.. altho I still believe that the Cruze name should go to the Sonic. Seeing the new Trax proportions in the Camo'ed pics gives me hope, that the Blazer front end is going to make it very nice looking in terms of the segment it competes

[ocnblu]

3 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I still believe that the Cruze name should go to the Sonic

I agree with all but this, it would stymie the car to re-brand it.

Edited December 23, 2018 by ocnblu

[Suaviloquent]

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I agree. It makes little sense.. but in truth.. GM's response and admission of defeat, even when they are winning, makes little sense either.  I've seen more CT6s on the damn road since their announcement then I did before. They looks so stately.. YES, a larger CTS, but with more handsome proportions. I feel like it would look even better with standard 22 inch rims. Anyway... The more I see the Cruze vs the Sonic the more I see why they are discontinuing it It makes no sense in these two vehicles selling at the same time.. altho I still believe that the Cruze name should go to the Sonic. Seeing the new Trax proportions in the Camo'ed pics gives me hope, that the Blazer front end is going to make it very nice looking in terms of the segment it competes

I appreciate the 'in terms of the segment it competes in'. That's the way to describe the segment in general...the EcoSport, C-HR are so fugly that even Hyundai makes a better entry than those!

I just hope that GM will have CT6 parts available maybe 8 years down the line, I will be looking to get my dad into one for surprise. I wouldn't be able to afford running, clean vintage one like he remembers from reading about America decades ago.

In Canada they have no RWD model, which to me is a bummer as I'd rather buy a set of winter tires and have him enjoy the RWD which even he grew up with.

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

19 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

I appreciate the 'in terms of the segment it competes in'. That's the way to describe the segment in general...the EcoSport, C-HR are so fugly that even Hyundai makes a better entry than those!

I just hope that GM will have CT6 parts available maybe 8 years down the line, I will be looking to get my dad into one for surprise. I wouldn't be able to afford running, clean vintage one like he remembers from reading about America decades ago.

In Canada they have no RWD model, which to me is a bummer as I'd rather buy a set of winter tires and have him enjoy the RWD which even he grew up with.

 

 

Agree.