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6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

YA DON'T SAY?!?!? It also has almost identical amount of torque as my n/a 2.0 in my Focus did..which is basically zero.. in something weighing a couple hundred to a few hundred pounds more.

(looking at the 1.4T's, there are two and if you have the more powerful one, it doesn't seem like a bad match but the weaker of the two seems pretty abysmal but regardless, anything running 17 second 1/4 mile times is well underpowered, imo)

I have the lesser one because I have one of the original Encores before the more powerful motor was an option.   GM geared it so that it is actually pretty peppy around town... so 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, are pretty short and give good off-the-line squirt. It's the 0-60 where the car sucks.... but in normal traffic I have no problems keeping up. 

BUT... it's laggy.... there is definitely a "Step, one, two, GO" to the engine.  My grandmother's Regal 2.0T isn't much different except that it has a better 0-60. 

9 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Right, and going from brake to part throttle ALWAYS induce even more lag because you have a much slower ramp up of the exhaust energy available to drive the turbo.

Something I've been trying to explain for years.  Partial throttle means partial exhaust charge means slower turbo speeds. 

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N/A engines also don't have full torque at part throttle and have no turbo for additional boost, pun intended. ;) So I fail to see how a lesser torque engine is better in any way, also at partial throttle. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

N/A engines also don't have full torque at part throttle and have no turbo for additional boost, pun intended. ;) So I fail to see how a lesser torque engine is better in any way, also at partial throttle. 

Because NA engines get from 0 to, let's say 60% torque, at part throttle in about 0.1 second. The delay is from the intake manifold and runners downstream of the throttle body going from a greater to a lesser amount of vacuum as the throttle opens.

With a turbocharged engine, everything that happens in an NA engine also happens. But that only gets you to the part throttle torque output of an otherwise identical NA engine. Next, the exhaust energy from the increased air/fuel charge starts spinning the turbo up. This causes the compressor to start bringing the intake ahead of the throttle to a higher pressure than atmospheric pressure. This is cut down to a fraction of that pressure by the throttle and fed into the engine. A cycle of every greater charge density, increases in exhaust energy and even greater charge density occurs until it is arrested by the waste gate opening and bleeding part of the exhaust around the turbine. This process takes a while. At part throttle, it often takes about 3~5 seconds. Compared to 0.1 the second it takes on an NA engine that feels like eternity. Also, it has a rubber band like effect where the throttle is constant and the engine rpm is not increasing much, but torque builds independently of rpm and throttle movement.

Edited by dwightlooi
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2 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

Because NA engines get from 0 to, let's say 60% torque, at part throttle in about 0.1 second. The delay is from the intake manifold and runners downstream of the throttle body going from a greater to a lesser amount of vacuum as the throttle opens.

With a turbocharged engine, everything that happens in an NA engine also happens. But that only gets you to the part throttle torque output of an otherwise identical NA engine. Next, the exhaust energy from the increased air/fuel charge starts spinning the turbo up. This causes the compressor to start bringing the intake ahead of the throttle to a higher pressure than atmospheric pressure. This is cut down to a fraction of that pressure by the throttle and fed into the engine. A cycle of every greater charge density, increases in exhaust energy and even greater charge density occurs until it is arrested by the waste gate opening and bleeding part of the exhaust around the turbine. This process takes a while. At part throttle, often takes about 3~5 seconds. Compared to 0.1 the second it takes on an NA engine that feels like eternity.

Even an Active-Fuel-Management engine can switch cylinders back on faster than a turbo can get its butt in gear at part throttle (or any throttle)

24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

N/A engines also don't have full torque at part throttle and have no turbo for additional boost, pun intended. ;) So I fail to see how a lesser torque engine is better in any way, also at partial throttle. 

They have all the torque they're gonna have at 50% throttle right away.  On a Turbo engine 50% throttle doesn't get you to the same level of torque for a few seconds.... often leading to more throttle than actually needed and then a downshift.

I have never noticed a turbo engine downshifting less than a N/A engine of roughly equal output. 

I don't tend to worry too much about downshifting now with these high gear count transmissions.  On most modern transmissions, the shifts are imperceptible. 

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1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Even an Active-Fuel-Management engine can switch cylinders back on faster than a turbo can get its butt in gear at part throttle (or any throttle)

That takes at most 2 rotations of the crankshaft. At cruise with the engine turning at 2000 rpm, that takes 2/2000 * 60 = 0.06 seconds.

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Posted (edited)

I got nothing to contribute to this thread because:

1. "entry level" luxury to me sounds silly.

2. This particular Mercedes on paper sounds like a good idea, its just that Im not interested in it.

3. As an AMG, a turbo 4 making 300 HP and 300 ft.lbs of torque is not special enough as lowly Ford does it...

For me, Mercedes should ditch this idea that this Mercedes is an AMG and should just sell it as a Mercedes. 

4. We are bitchin' about GM's 3.6 when Nissan's 3.7 is equivalent in power and torque yet nobody on this site seems to bitch about Nissan's "lack of torque" on that engine.

5. Acura's V6 at 3.5 liters also makes about the same power numbers, yet nobody on this site bitches about Acura...Toyota's V6 also makes comoparable numbers. 

6. Mercedes  offers turbocharged 4 cylinder engines in their equivalent (3.6 liter V6 GM competition) rides that make...just as much ft.lbs of torque (273) yet nobody bitches about how that number is not sufficient, or worse, ya'll seem satisfied in how we are all forced to believe that 4 cylinder engines are the shyte. I dont care if these 4 cylinder cars are turbocharged, making 300 HP and 300 ft.lbs of torque, and I dont care if these are necessary for CAFE reasons...Im having a great deal of difficulty understanding your beef with a naturally aspirated V6...making sufficient amounts of horsepower and torque for every day driving duties...

7. This is why GM, Infiniti and Acura havent ditched these V6s just yet, because they are pretty good in what they are supposed to be doing. Which are pretty much better in doing what a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine replacing them is doing...

8. We are all pushed into turbocharged 4 cylinders, I would be having a beef with that, instead of bitching about something trivial as a naturally aspirated V6 not making enough torque, because in the real world of driving, naturally aspirated V6s seems best...

And although Im liking the idea of a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine making 300 horsepower and 300 ft.lbs of torque and Im liking that idea in a Mustang or Camaro or even in that Mercedes Benz CLA sedan, Id rather have a GM, Acura and Infiniti NATURALLY ASPIRATED 3,5 or 3.7 liter V6 making 300 horses and 275-285 ft.lbs of torque...

So it may seem I got something to say, I really dont. Im just perplexed by some in this thread...so instead of causing a commotion about it...

I will troll anyway, but I will troll this way instead

On 4/9/2019 at 4:11 PM, ccap41 said:

That hatch is HOT. 

 

So tell us, hot HOT do you think that hatch really is, big boy?

Is it, THIS hot?

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Edited by oldshurst442
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3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I got nothing to contribute to this thread because:

1. "entry level" luxury to me sounds silly.

2. This particular Mercedes on paper sounds like a good idea, its just that Im not interested in it.

3. As an AMG, a turbo 4 making 300 HP and 300 ft.lbs of torque is not special enough as lowly Ford does it...

For me, Mercedes should ditch this idea that this Mercedes is an AMG and should just sell it as a Mercedes. 

4. We are bitchin' about GM's 3.6 when Nissan's 3.7 is equivalent in power and torque yet nobody on this site seems to bitch about Nissan's "lack of torque" on that engine.

5. Acura's V6 at 3.5 liters also makes about the same power numbers, yet nobody on this site bitches about Acura...

6. Mercedes  offers turbocharged 4 cylinder engines in their equivalent (3.6 liter V6 GM competition) rides that make...just as much ft.lbs of torque (273) yet nobody bitches about how that number is not sufficient, or worse, ya'll seem satisfied in how we are all forced to believe that 4 cylinder engines are the shyte. I dont care if these 4 cylinder cars are turbocharged, making 300 HP and 300 ft.lbs of torque, and I dont care if these are necessary for CAFE reasons...Im having a great deal of difficulty understanding your beef with a naturally aspirated V6...making sufficient amounts of horsepower and torque for every day driving duties...

7. This is why GM, Infiniti and Acura havent ditched these V6s just yet, because they are pretty good in what they are supposed to be doing. Which are pretty much better in doing what a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine replacing them is doing...

And although Im liking the idea of a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine making 300 horsepower and 300 ft.lbs of torque and Im liking that idea in a Mustang or Camaro or even in that Mercedes Benz CLA sedan, Id rather have a GM, Acura and Infiniti NATURALLY ASPIRATED 3,5 or 3.7 liter V6 making 300 horses and 275-285 ft.lbs of torque...

So it may seem I got something to say, I really dont. Im just perplexed by some in this thread...so instead of causing a commotion about it...

I will troll anyway, but I will troll this way instead

 

So tell us, hot HOT do you think that hatch really is, big boy?

Is it, THIS hot?

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For having NOTHING to contribute, you sure made a very long post! LOL!!!

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

For having NOTHING to contribute, you sure made a very long post! LOL!!!

I always have something to say. Even when I dont. 

I always have an opinion about something, even when I dont.

Its a curse!!!

But I always try to keep myself informed.

Edited by oldshurst442

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28 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I always have something to say. Even when I dont. 

I always have an opinion about something, even when I dont.

Its a curse!!!

But I always try to keep myself informed.

My whole point in blasting this engine and every other OEM out there with these DOHC High Horsepower motors and low torque is they are Bloated fat pigs of engines (HEAVY) when we were making NA Pushrod V6 that moved auto's just fine and efficiently. 

I honestly do not see any real gain that these DOHC engines brought to the table other than added complexity for no real gain in MPG and low torque.

Turbo engines again also bring added complexity and weight that does make one question a Turbo 4 300HP or a smoother V6 300hp? Only benefit is the Turbo if done right makes equal or more torque at a low RPM number compared to these 280 to 290 lb-ft of torque at 3000 to 5000 rpm.

I just do not get the need or thrill for a high revving engine when I can get the same thing out of a V8.

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3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I just do not get the need or thrill for a high revving engine when I can get the same thing out of a V8.

You're comparing V8 to turbo 4's.. and almost all turbo 4 engines now aren't high revving. 

GM's LTG makes peak power at 5600rpm

Ford's 2.0T peaks at 5500rpm 

Jeep's new 2.0T peaks at 5200rpm

BMW's 2.0T peaks from 5000-6500rpm

56 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

4. We are bitchin' about GM's 3.6 when Nissan's 3.7 is equivalent in power and torque yet nobody on this site seems to bitch about Nissan's "lack of torque" on that engine.

5. Acura's V6 at 3.5 liters also makes about the same power numbers, yet nobody on this site bitches about Acura...Toyota's V6 also makes comoparable numbers. 

FWIW, I complain about all n/a V6's. GM just happens to come up the most around here. I know I've also complained about the V6 in my dad's Taco as well. 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

 

FWIW, I complain about all n/a V6's. GM just happens to come up the most around here. I know I've also complained about the V6 in my dad's Taco as well. 

 But why do you do that?

What it is about naturally aspirated V6s that get your goat? 

Not trolling you, just asking in all honesty. Id like to pick your brain for a few moments. I wanna try to understand you.

Do you prefer forced induction? And if yes, please tell me why.  

I prefer naturally aspirated. I owned a supercharged V6 and a turbo 4 cylinder and even though that supercharged V6 felt more like a V8 with all that grunt down low in the power band, I prefer a honest to goodness V8 over it and my wife's Fusion...well, it accelerates an awful lot like a 3.1 liter (1994 Potiac Grand AM GT 4 door)and 3.4 liter OHV V6s (1999 Olds Alero GLS)  that GM made in the 1990s. Making comparable power both in HP and in torque, but I prefer those 1990 V6s than that ecoboosted 1.6 liter 4.

I also drove an Acura Integra GSR (my cousin's) more than a couple of times and although that engine lacked torque but was a high revver with respectable hoprsepower numbers for the day, I prefer THAT naturally aspirated 4 cylinder over any 2.0 liter turbocharged 4 cylinder I have driven the last few years. (Ford's, GM's, Hyundai's, Honda's, VW's) 

For me, its hard to explain why.   I guess I dont like the "kick" that turbos do when they "kick" in. Its a cool feeling, Ill admit.  I just dont get any excitement with that. Plus...the lag that comes with turbos as well. Yes, modern small turbos that wind up like mad early on in the rev range do have lag on certain conditions. A naturally aspirated V6 does not have that.

You mentioned the few moments that you have to wait for the kickdown to happen on a naturally aspirated V6. Which I got to experience in my wife's 2007 FWD Ford Edge with the 3.5 V6.

So....I could see that. Its comparable to waiting for the turbos to kick in, I guess. Maybe that is because of 6 speed gearboxes?

The 1990s V6s Im talking about had those "really really old and ancient" 4 speeds. No waiting period for a kickdown to happen in those. 

My Acura's transmission doesnt have a wait to kickdown either...

Keeping in mind, this is all driving in daily, real world conditions that I want us to discuss and me to understand your reasoning in these conditions.

Anyway, hoping you answer me. 

Edited by oldshurst442
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@oldshurst442 Having grown up with a father who had a repair shop, made race cars and have driven my share of big block V8's and Supercharged V8's. I can tell you that I get where you are coming from. 

The Supercharger wine and power is amazing no doubt about it and I always loved that sound since I saw the original Mad Max Movie.

Yet with that said, I get the all natural aspirated motors. Having a custom built 402 in my Suburban, I can tell you the long hard pulls of power and movement without the wine of a supercharger or the G push into the seat of the Turbo but a true push into the back of the seat from raw big block power is something most younger people have never experienced.

I can honestly say I know now where I get my passion for Electric auto's, they give the same solid push as a massive big block V8. That long constant pull of power. 

I get what you feel and think about it. This could also be why I am a critic of all things DOHC built engine with high horsepower and weak torque. I just do not see the need for these high revving engines when we could build them simpler and cheaper. That is the attraction of electric, I still think long term, electric will simplify and be cheaper than ICE auto's to run for people and the planet.

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16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But why do you do that?

What it is about naturally aspirated V6s that get your goat? 

The require more revs than I like. None of them are making peak torque under 3000rpm.

In the case of the Tacoma its a hybrid response. It doesn't like to rev, at all, but at the same time it doesn't make much power down low, imo. 

For a smaller engine, I prefer forced induction for the simple part of low and mid range thrust. If it were a toy I would gladly enjoy something to freely rev.

I've mentioned it before but as a Ford guy the 6.2 in the Camaro better suits my conservative driving style with its gobs of low end vs the 5.0 which wants more revs. 

21 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You mentioned the few moments that you have to wait for the kickdown to happen on a naturally aspirated V6. Which I got to experience in my wife's 2007 FWD Ford Edge with the 3.5 V6.

So....I could see that. Its comparable to waiting for the turbos to kick in, I guess. Maybe that is because of 6 speed gearboxes?

Yeah, I feel like it is a wash in which item do you want to wait for? Turbos require boost and revving engines require a downshift.. Both take a second or two for the computers to sort out the input and realize the necessary output. Personally, on a daily driver, I like the lack of revs and it just feels like it isn't working as hard waiting for a turbo for a couple seconds going up hill or speeding up to pass. 

As for a toy.. It completely changes. I want it a manual and revs aren't a bad thing. They are thrilling and fun to hear going through the gears. 

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3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

The Supercharger wine and power is amazing no doubt about it and I always loved that sound since I saw the original Mad Max Movie.

I got fed up with the supercharger whine in the end. I prefer the "pssssss'  'psssss'  from the excessive back pressure coming from the blow off valve of a turbo now-a-days than the supercharger whine. But I do prefer the instant forced induction acceleration that you get with a supercharger over a turbo....but...

That smoothness of a naturally aspirated motor accelerating is unmatched. For me. Especially if we ARE talking about a V8. 

 

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11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet with that said, I get the all natural aspirated motors. Having a custom built 402 in my Suburban, I can tell you the long hard pulls of power and movement without the wine of a supercharger or the G push into the seat of the Turbo but a true push into the back of the seat from raw big block power is something most younger people have never experienced.

🙋🏻‍♂️

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On 4/10/2019 at 10:49 AM, Drew Dowdell said:

Laggy.

I've driven the 2.0T Regal GS and the 3.6 Regal GS and the 3.6 LaX.

In no instance does the 2.0T feel faster than the 3.6. 

the newest Regals, 2018+, the 3.6 may still feel faster, but there's not really lag on the 2.0 and to be honest the 2.0 is a better drive.

that's just me not often being impressed by GM's 3.6.  It seems to be good in some of the Cadillacs and sucky (to me) otherwise.  At least with my perspective of having the superior Chrysler pentastar 3.6 v6 in a vehicle in my garage.

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1 minute ago, regfootball said:

the newest Regals, 2018+, the 3.6 may still feel faster, but there's not really lag on the 2.0 and to be honest the 2.0 is a better drive.

that's just me not often being impressed by GM's 3.6.  It seems to be good in some of the Cadillacs and sucky (to me) otherwise.  At least with my perspective of having the superior Chrysler pentastar 3.6 v6 in a vehicle in my garage.

I dunno... even 6-speed to 6-speed between the Regal and the prior generation Lacrosse, the LaX was just giant a rocketship.  I'll give you that the Pentastar is probably smoother, but in terms of big cruisers, a LaX and 300C are pretty dern close in capability and comfort. 

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Posted (edited)

All right gays, let me put it simply for you all:-

(1) An engine being turbocharged (or not) has nothing to do with whether it is, or can be, high revving. Period.

(2) Contemporary Turbocharged engines are typically not high revving because of the designers' desire to minimize lag and maximize torque down to the lowest reaches of the rev range.

(3) Turbochargers generally have a range of airflow within which it functions well. A big turbo supports higher flow -- which means higher boost or higher engine rpms. A small turbo takes less exhaust energy to drive -- which means higher output at lower rpms and less turbo lag.

(4) To be more specific, at about 20 psi of boost (~1.36 bar), the most advanced turbos can support a torque plateau of about 3000 rpm. That is to say you can have your peak torque of about 150 lb-ft/liter across about 3,000 rpm of engine speed range. This can be 1,500~4,500 rpm or it can be 4,000~7,000 rpm depending on the size of the turbo. Obviously, an engine the latter will make more power... much more power (greater than 200 hp / liter) and rev to 8,000 rpm without running out of breath. But expect 1990s style lag and rubberband like throttle response. With the former you get ~ 130~140 hp / liter, but the engine isn't dead between idle and about 3800 rpm. You can have either or something in between, but you can;t have both.

Edited by dwightlooi
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16 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

All right gays

Hey now!

Im not gay!

Nor am I a switch hittter if ya know what I mean! 

Image result for freddie mercury wink gif

 

Im 100% pure Greek male heterosexual machoness...

Image result for george michael you gotta have faith gif

Oh...wait a minute...

OK...

Image result for Greek American actor

Nope...

gay...even if he is not gay...he is gay...

Related image

 

Yeah...like THAT guy!  Im bald like him too!

Not that there is anything wrong with that...

Image result for not that there's anything wrong with that gif

 

Because...in Ancient Greece, well...lets not go there because 

35 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

All right gays,

This would be relevant  and I do have a point to make...I think? 

 

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All right GUYS, let me put it simply for you all:-

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50 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I just figured he was only talking to me....

I was only talking to Oldhurst442

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I just figured he was only talking to me....

That's OK, I figured he was just putting us all in the Happy Group of Auto Enthusiast! :P 

48 minutes ago, dwightlooi said:

I was only talking to Oldhurst442

😢 Now I feel alone! :P NOT but that is OK Dwight, I still get ya! :D 

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On 4/9/2019 at 3:04 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

I don't care for the looks, but 300hp out of a 2.0t with almost 300 lb-ft of torque sounds fine to me.... I'm interested in trying it to see how it drives. These are 4.6 Northstar specs from 10 years ago. 

I agree.. but if GM were to have kept the Cruze going in the U.S., we might of got a Cruze SS (Brazil) with a 1.4L with 300HP

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      The Hyundai Sonata broke cover a couple of weeks before the New York Auto Show, but I finally got to see it on Thursday.  While there are frequent reports that the midsize sedan segment is dying, it still is able to move about 153,000 units just in the month of March.  Hyundai sees an opportunity here as some of its competition, namely the Ford Fusion, will be going to the great used-car lot in the sky in the near future.  Still, the Sonata has only sold around 21,000 units year to date while Nissan can move that many Altimas in a month and Accord and Camry do even better.  So what is Hyundai going for here by introducing a new Sonata?  They're going for sexy.
      The midsize market is a conservative one, few models are ever called sexy. Hyundai has gone out of their way to give the Sonata a sexy look without looking odd (Accord) or overwrought (Camry). Up front, there is a huge.. HUGE...grille opening. It has the somewhat traditional six-sided shape but is pinched in a little at the bottom.  Above that are the lighting accents that most everyone will mention when talking about this car.  Along the hood, they are chrome strips that light up when the car is on.  Once this thing hits the streets it will be a very distinctive visual feature that will separate this car from the Accords and Camrys.  The character line flows from the headlights along the body in a very slight S-curve.  Multiple creases on the door panels help keep the car from looking slab-sided. The wheels are an attractive two-tone 10-spoke design.  Around back is a full-width U-shape taillamp setup that looks like the Honda Civic setup, but upside down. It integrates into a rather tall (for a family sedan) spoiler on the rear trunk like. The tops of the taillights have small fins that ostensibly direct airflow the way Hyundai intends.  The overall exterior is handsome and sensuous and does a good job of distinguishing itself from others in the class. 
       Inside is a mixed bag. The overall look is handsome and restrained, but areas of cost-cutting were visible. There is cheaper plastic on the door panels, lower dash, and parts of the center console.  Still, it is hard to argue with a full TFT screen for the gauge cluster and a large, wide infotainment system in the center.  The infotainment system sits high on the dash and looks like a tablet popping up from below. Controls are simple and easy to reach, and Hyundai has joined the ranks of the new decade by removing the shifter and replacing it with push-button controls. I like Hyundai's setup better than Honda's which I have to think about to use. The seats are a bit flat, but there is plenty of head and leg room. I do like Hyundai's use of two-tone interior, but that won't be on all cars. 
      At release, the Hyundai Sonata will come with two engines, a 2.5 direct injected 4-cylinder with 191 horsepower at 6,100 RPM and 181 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm. An optional 1.6T will have 180 horsepower at 5,500 rpm and 195 lb-ft of torque from 1,5000 - 4,500 rpm.  The 2.5 will get 33mpg combined and the 1.6T will get 31mpg combined.   Some have balked at the idea that the buy-up engine has less horsepower than the base engine, but in this case, it is the flat torque curve that will really make the 1.6T feel faster.  For those who are wanting more power, Hyundai is reportedly working on an N-Line version that will have over 275 horsepower.  For the greenies, a hybrid is coming soon as well, with a possibly plug-in version in the works. Driving impressions will have to wait until this fall.
      Overall, Hyundai has a very strong contender for the shrinking mid-size market. Not all of the Ford Fusion owners will go to crossovers, so Hyundai looks ready to scoop them up.
       


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