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2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ Except internal combustion vehicles took off FAR faster than EVs have done over the last, well to be honest; efforts go back to the 1970s [if you push the whole early 1900s EV market off to one side].

What EVs were sold commercially at scale in the 1970s?

It took a long time for cars to scale and they were for the 1%ers

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8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What EVs were sold commercially at scale in the 1970s?

That's precisely the point. And at 2% of the market today, one can argue they still aren't at scale.

>>"It took a long time for cars to scale and they were for the 1%ers"<<
Most still are. $75K is not a mainstream-price product. There's only 3 in the meat of the price range (Model 3, leaf, Bolt), and most of the proposed models seem to also be skewed toward the upper end too.

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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

That's precisely the point. And at 2% of the market today, one can argue they still aren't at scale.

>>"It took a long time for cars to scale and they were for the 1%ers"<<
Most still are. $75K is not a mainstream-price product. There's only 3 in the meat of the price range (Model 3, leaf, Bolt), and most of the proposed models seem to also be skewed toward the upper end too.

So we're still looking for the Model-T of the EV world.  It'll happen.

I still maintain that the Bolt's relatively poor sales are largely due to its dorky shape.  Had they built some SA into it or made it more of a crossover (mutually exclusive, I know) it would have sold a lot better.  It's not a bad car to drive at all and in reality could satisfy the needs of most small and mid-size sedan drivers. 

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30 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ Except internal combustion vehicles took off FAR faster than EVs have done over the last, well to be honest; efforts go back to the 1970s [if you push the whole early 1900s EV market off to one side].

RE the Tesla Roadster : I'm not seeing it on the Tesla site; available to build & price. Perhaps those vids were taken before Elon shot it into space. ;)

Roadster 1.0 is not in production any longer. 2.0 reservations are available.

https://www.tesla.com/roadster

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ Except internal combustion vehicles took off FAR faster than EVs have done over the last, well to be honest; efforts go back to the 1970s [if you push the whole early 1900s EV market off to one side].

RE the Tesla Roadster : I'm not seeing it on the Tesla site; available to build & price. Perhaps those vids were taken before Elon shot it into space. ;)

Fair point but you are forgetting that it was the old guard who held EVs back more than the “new tech” level of it. See GMs EV debacle of the 90s as the most recent example. Competing industries and corrupt politicians (bought and sold by the lobbyists of said industries) held the tech back. It is only in the last 15 years or so that the tech has been allowed to finally catch up to the real world, i.e. more range between charges. My point about the reluctance of some people to accept simple progress and changes in technology stands. The arguments against EVs are getting weaker and weaker every year. Just my opinion though. 

Edited by surreal1272
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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So we're still looking for the Model-T of the EV world.  It'll happen.

I still maintain that the Bolt's relatively poor sales are largely due to its dorky shape.  Had they built some SA into it or made it more of a crossover (mutually exclusive, I know) it would have sold a lot better.  It's not a bad car to drive at all and in reality could satisfy the needs of most small and mid-size sedan drivers. 

I agree with you on the Bolt. I get the gripe about it’s looks but it is a solid and surprisingly quick little car (thank you endless torque). I drove one across town (when I was working at a Chevy dealership last year) and I actually liked the way it drove but the outside is a bit “odd” and yes it should have been a true CUV to better fit in to current buying trends. 

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2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I still maintain that the Bolt's relatively poor sales are largely due to its dorky shape.  Had they built some SA into it or made it more of a crossover (mutually exclusive, I know) it would have sold a lot better.

100% agree. 

I don't understand why companies try and force EVs to have a funky look to them. 

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I find the Bolt kinda cute, if I had to apply a general adjective. It's more generic/utilitarian than 'dorky'. At least it's not origami-esque like the horrible prius.

Bolt is selling well…… for an EV. So far this year, it's #2 in sales. But there's a weird disconnect here where 'poorly selling' is commonly attached to 'the Bolt', when other than one Tesla, ALL EVs sell poorly. 
 

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Fair point but you are forgetting that it was the old guard who held EVs back more than the “new tech” level of it. See GMs EV debacle of the 90s as the most recent example. Competing industries and corrupt politicians (bought and sold by the lobbyists of said industries) held the tech back. It is only in the last 15 years or so that the tech has been allowed to finally catch up to the real world, i.e. more range between charges. 

I don't know that I buy that theory- there were dozens upon dozens of mainstream OEM, small company & private enterprise (read backyard efforts) at designing & marketing EVs over the decades- there just weren't buyers for them. From what I've read on the EV1, the bottom line is it wasn't viable from a business case, and that's eminently believable. I JUST read the finance report that Tesla reported "it's first quarterly loss since" 9 months ago

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The only reason EVs are poor selling is because they can be better but they are obviously not cheap enough for anyone to take a risk on a true BEV yet.  When a Crossover BEV is less than a base model Civic/Corolla, then the sales will come.  People will not change unless there is a giant incentive for them to do so.  Right now a true BEV is simply too expensive for most people to experiment.  Charging stations are already here or are forthcoming but the price must be low enough to effectively replace large chunks of the used car market in order for BEVs to completely win the marketplace.

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3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I agree with you on the Bolt. I get the gripe about it’s looks but it is a solid and surprisingly quick little car (thank you endless torque). I drove one across town (when I was working at a Chevy dealership last year) and I actually liked the way it drove but the outside is a bit “odd” and yes it should have been a true CUV to better fit in to current buying trends. 

Poppycock.  Looks aren't everything.  If it really were the panacea that some here like to preach, it would be selling in much higher numbers DESPITE its looks.  It just ain't all that and a bag of chips.

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10 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Poppycock.  Looks aren't everything.  If it really were the panacea that some here like to preach, it would be selling in much higher numbers DESPITE its looks.  It just ain't all that and a bag of chips.

Looks matter. Put the powertrain in the Lacrosse or Regal and I'd drive it. 

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^^^

Agree that the Bolt is not bad looking, would have sold better if it was a CUV. GM missed reading the tea leaves for the current auto trend.

Also agree that the Asian auto's do follow a very popular Origami type design. Yet while that sells well in the Asian rim and in Europe, they seem to have not realized that Americans are not huge Origami fans.

Leaf and Prius would have sold better if a more Butch style was used I think.

53 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Poppycock.  Looks aren't everything.  If it really were the panacea that some here like to preach, it would be selling in much higher numbers DESPITE its looks.  It just ain't all that and a bag of chips.

I call your BULLSHIT OF NARROW VIEW!

People who drive EVs tend to buy them unless you have a wife who has an input and your huge like me. Then a much larger one would be better. 

BOLT is an excellent drive, if they had done a CUV rather than a hatch back I bet it would be selling even more. 
Just because you want to breath toxic fumes and coal dust not everyone does on the planet and before you know it as Solid state batteries hit in EV late this year and next year with many more CUV EV options, sales are going to jump up much faster.

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22 minutes ago, dfelt said:

sales are going to jump up much faster

Dream on

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3 hours ago, balthazar said:

I find the Bolt kinda cute, if I had to apply a general adjective. It's more generic/utilitarian than 'dorky'. At least it's not origami-esque like the horrible prius.

Bolt is selling well…… for an EV. So far this year, it's #2 in sales. But there's a weird disconnect here where 'poorly selling' is commonly attached to 'the Bolt', when other than one Tesla, ALL EVs sell poorly. 
 

I don't know that I buy that theory- there were dozens upon dozens of mainstream OEM, small company & private enterprise (read backyard efforts) at designing & marketing EVs over the decades- there just weren't buyers for them. From what I've read on the EV1, the bottom line is it wasn't viable from a business case, and that's eminently believable. I JUST read the finance report that Tesla reported "it's first quarterly loss since" 9 months ago

None of those startups had the backing and a few of those got swallowed by the big boys before anything could even hit the market. Like I said, the technology had roadblocks that went beyond the limits of the tech itself. It is clear that those hurdles and obstructionists of the past have been sent to the sidelines. Tesla opened the door and others are slowly getting the hint and making the investment like what Ford is doing with Rivian. 

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Poppycock.  Looks aren't everything.  If it really were the panacea that some here like to preach, it would be selling in much higher numbers DESPITE its looks.  It just ain't all that and a bag of chips.

Not “poppycock”. Fact. If it was put into a CUV, the sales would be much higher and that is not even a debatable point. Whether you choose to accept it or not is 100% irrelevant. It sure as hell isn’t like you’ve had any real time in one so your opinion on this is taken with a grain of salt. 

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13 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Fact. If it was put into a CUV, the sales would be much higher and that is not even a debatable point

:roflmao:

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Lacrosse

??? What is a "LaCrosse"?  Is that a Canadian word?

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1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

:roflmao:

??? What is a "LaCrosse"?  Is that a Canadian word?

What I'm saying is the Bolt lacks the visual Allure.

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All of you crying out in agony over the Bolt's looks... the manufacturer calls it a Crossover.  In every OEM reference to the vehicle, it is grouped and classified as a Chevrolet CUV.  So I don't have a clue why all the crying and excuses saying it would sell better as a CUV... it already is.  And a puny selling one at that.

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If you had an EV the size of an Equinox or Traverse, sales would be much better.  That eventually will come.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

If you had an EV the size of an Equinox or Traverse, sales would be much better.  That eventually will come.

Yes, if they had a decent sized EV CUV that looks like a normal CUV (the Bolt is a humpy tall hatchback), sales would be better. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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13 hours ago, dfelt said:

Solid state batteries hit in EV late this year and next year with many more CUV EV options,

There are solid state batteries ready for the market? Who's using them first? What're they going in? 

56 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

If you had an EV the size of an Equinox or Traverse, sales would be much better.  That eventually will come.

After a smallish sedan, that size should have been next. I feel like there is no reason there shouldn't be more of those out already instead of funky styling and odd sizing in the Bolt. 

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3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

There are solid state batteries ready for the market? Who's using them first? What're they going in? 

They're going into phones first, but I would imagine that cars aren't far behind. 

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23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They're going into phones first, but I would imagine that cars aren't far behind. 

What kind of improvement in phone batteries will that bring? Could it take my one charge per day(overnight) to one charge per two days? That would be pretty amazing. 

Since I got my XR, I have only used my phone so much throughout a single day that I felt the need to charge it before bed once. It will easily last 24hrs before getting under 20%. I stretched it to 28hrs once to see about how long it'll go on a charge and I think that was around 5% battery remaining. 

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1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

What kind of improvement in phone batteries will that bring? Could it take my one charge per day(overnight) to one charge per two days? That would be pretty amazing. 

Since I got my XR, I have only used my phone so much throughout a single day that I felt the need to charge it before bed once. It will easily last 24hrs before getting under 20%. I stretched it to 28hrs once to see about how long it'll go on a charge and I think that was around 5% battery remaining. 

My guess is that they'll likely use the tech to make phones thinner and lighter rather than extending the time it can go without charging... but you never know. It could be a combination of both. 

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17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

:roflmao:

??? What is a "LaCrosse"?  Is that a Canadian word?

Funny how you laugh at the truth. Show us on the doll where the EV touched you. 

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8 hours ago, ocnblu said:

All of you crying out in agony over the Bolt's looks... the manufacturer calls it a Crossover.  In every OEM reference to the vehicle, it is grouped and classified as a Chevrolet CUV.  So I don't have a clue why all the crying and excuses saying it would sell better as a CUV... it already is.  And a puny selling one at that.

I want you pay special close attention to the first paragraph describing the Bolt on CHEVY’s own page. Nowhere does it say CUV but it sure does mention the word “car” a lot. And no one is crying but you because you’re the only one here who gets their underwear in a knot over any positive attention directed at EVs. We get it. You hate them so maybe staying out of the conversation and not trolling at every EV turn would be better here. 

 

BF8009F6-B4FF-40B7-8CB3-B0686BB0272D.png

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