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12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Well I guess we'll see how the CT5 sells against the "low quality" C-class.  

Nice deflection but your claim of not seeing what people are talking about in regards to MBs use of cheap plastics rings hollow and smells like classic fanboyism. 

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13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Well I guess we'll see how the CT5 sells against the "low quality" C-class.  

So quality equals sales now? Must be why the Escalade and the XT5 do so well versus the German competition. Oh wait, that might not fit your argument. I’ll go ahead and move that bar for you lol. 

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12 hours ago, balthazar said:

We already know how the low quality C-class sells against the leader 3/4-Series from BMW.

YTD 3/4 series has 20,483 to 19,056 for the C-class.  It isn’t too bad right now, last year 3/4-series beat the C-class about 75k to 60k.  Which I agree is not good but Mercedes beats them in almost every other segment.

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Nice deflection but your claim of not seeing what people are talking about in regards to MBs use of cheap plastics rings hollow and smells like classic fanboyism. 

All cars have plastic in them.  The C and E class in most comparison tests and reviews are said to have the best interiors in their class.  The A6 is nice too, that is on par with the E-class.

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

So quality equals sales now? Must be why the Escalade and the XT5 do so well versus the German competition. Oh wait, that might not fit your argument. I’ll go ahead and move that bar for you lol. 

Quality is only one small piece of the puzzle.  Lots of things get a car to sell.  I think for CT5 exterior styling, interior and price will matter a lot.  Engine probably doesn’t matter as much because it is class competitive power especially vs an ES350 or TLX or the MKZ while it is still here.  The complaint was brought up about the 2.0 being too weak, but they could make the Blackwing V8 standard in the CT5 and the C-class would still outsell it.  So horsepower isn’t the issue.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 6:16 PM, regfootball said:

 

image.png

image.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vile, fake black C-pillar trim is an endemic problem with many car makers today, GM in particular is bad about it.  It's lazy, thoughtless design. Either put a window there like on the CT6, or shape the door differently so no trim is needed on the C-pillar.   The ATS and CTS did a good job w/ the door and C-pillar shape.  Don't put cheesy trim on the C-pillar that serves no purpose. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

All cars have plastic in them.  The C and E class in most comparison tests and reviews are said to have the best interiors in their class.  The A6 is nice too, that is on par with the E-class.

You clearly did not watch the YouTube video posted above. If any GM car, much less a Cadillac, made noises like that just by pressing on various parts of the plastic, you would be non-stop in your criticism over said lack of quality. I’ve been in my fair share of German cars and I can attest to those squeak claims and plethora of plastic in all the wrong places. The design is made to look like its high quality and in some cases, does look better than most but it’s a front, a disguise for the squeaks that lie beneath it. 

 

Now answer me this, since we are on the subject of “one piece of the puzzle”. What percentage of Benz sales are actually leases? Cite the source. 

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Vile, fake black C-pillar trim is an endemic problem with many car makers today, GM in particular is bad about it.  It's lazy, thoughtless design. Either put a window there like on the CT6, or shape the door differently so no trim is needed on the C-pillar.   The ATS and CTS did a good job w/ the door and C-pillar shape.  Don't put cheesy trim on the C-pillar that serves no purpose. 

And that is my biggest gripe with the exterior of the CT5. Just lazy and unnecessary. Other than that though, it’s basic design is every bit as good as an E-Class (closest to its size) and certainly more modern and eye catching (think front three quarters here) than the rather boring and bulbous looking C-Class. 

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Don't put cheesy trim on the C-pillar that serves no purpose. 


All the fake grilles are FAR more egregious, IMO, because you can clearly see the portions that are functional and those that are fake on the same car. No one is every going to try and see out OR in that tiny CT5 portal if it were glass and not half obscured by internal structure & seating material. False drama.
 

Screen Shot 2019-05-13 at 2.01.51 PM.png

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30 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

..I'd still take a C Class over the Cadillac equivalent..  

And that’s fine but some like to think that there is nothing cheap or subpar quality about Mercedes Benz when it is just not true. 

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19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And that’s fine but some like to think that there is nothing cheap or subpar quality about Mercedes Benz when it is just not true. 

People act the same with Cadillac, Chevy, Ford, Toyota, etc.. 

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4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

 

Now answer me this, since we are on the subject of “one piece of the puzzle”. What percentage of Benz sales are actually leases? Cite the source. 

A lot are leased but what is the difference?  It is quite possible that leasing is more profitable because dealerships don’t make money selling new cars, they make it on financing, serviced and used cars.  Leasing is manufacturer financing and let’s you sell a CPO car 3 years later.  

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Posted (edited)

Leasing makes sense than buying for consumers w/ luxury cars, esp. when the cabin tech changes quickly.    Don't want to get stuck w/ a dated or out-of-warranty product. 

Edited by Robert Hall

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On 5/12/2019 at 7:13 AM, balthazar said:

Meh- it's not doing it for me. And now the rear axle needs to move rearward also. 

Screen Shot 2019-05-12 at 8.03.22 AM copy.png

Screen Shot 2019-05-12 at 8.03.22 AM.png

I like the revised c pillar and the trunk length is a bit long on the chop, but it does make me think a trunk length inbetween the two would look good.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, regfootball said:

I like the revised c pillar and the trunk length is a bit long on the chop, but it does make me think a trunk length inbetween the two would look good.

That is better...even better would be an actual window in the C-pillar rather than the black triangle of fail.

6 hours ago, balthazar said:


All the fake grilles are FAR more egregious, IMO, because you can clearly see the portions that are functional and those that are fake on the same car. No one is every going to try and see out OR in that tiny CT5 portal if it were glass and not half obscured by internal structure & seating material. False drama.
 

 

Fake anything--fake grilles, fake exhaust tips, vents, etc is bad.  But the fake grilles aren't really as noticeable as the bad C-pillar trim.  A C-pillar window would let a bit of light in, and whether or not anyone looks in or out of it is immaterial--an actual window is infinitely better than a black triangle of fail.   :)

Edited by Robert Hall

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20 hours ago, balthazar said:

• How do you specifically define 'epic failure' tho?

• The term 'benchmark' has been pushed toward being a 'bad thing' when ALL brands do it. A better term is called 'being competitive with market trends'. I guess I could also ask here; how do you define "benchmarking"?

Epic failure - going to make the downslide of the ATS look good....unless they want to really push cheap leases here....

Benchmarking is unimportant here....they need models that wow like the Caddies of old...I have no doubt you have many good examples..... 🙂 

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1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

That is better...even better would be an actual window in the C-pillar rather than the black triangle of fail.

Fake anything--fake grilles, fake exhaust tips, vents, etc is bad.  But the fake grilles aren't really as noticeable as the bad C-pillar trim.  A C-pillar window would let a bit of light in, and whether or not anyone looks in or out of it is immaterial--an actual window is infinitely better than a black triangle of fail.   :)

Even though i am with ya on the black triangle of fail, if this ends up in my garage, it probably is one of the more tolerable black triangle of fails out there

image.png

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12 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

That is better...even better would be an actual window in the C-pillar rather than the black triangle of fail.

Fake anything--fake grilles, fake exhaust tips, vents, etc is bad.  But the fake grilles aren't really as noticeable as the bad C-pillar trim.  A C-pillar window would let a bit of light in, and whether or not anyone looks in or out of it is immaterial--an actual window is infinitely better than a black triangle of fail.   :)

Let's add the Fake Engine sound of Fail! I am really getting pissed with the fake big engine power sound on a tiny engine that I have heard in some auto's and especially movies lately and even with an EV, they are making fake engine sounds. Fake = Bad :nono:

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15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A lot are leased but what is the difference?  It is quite possible that leasing is more profitable because dealerships don’t make money selling new cars, they make it on financing, serviced and used cars.  Leasing is manufacturer financing and let’s you sell a CPO car 3 years later.  

I asked for a very good reason. Humor me with some actual stats. 

15 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Leasing makes sense than buying for consumers w/ luxury cars, esp. when the cabin tech changes quickly.    Don't want to get stuck w/ a dated or out-of-warranty product. 

Not questioning those “benefits”. Just want some actual numbers from the Benz camp. 

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Posted (edited)

Let me just save SMK some trouble. In 2016, 53% of Benz cars moved were leases (one of the highest btw) while Cadillac only had 41%. Now there are several reasons why Benz lease numbers are that high (with several good reasons already pointed out) but one the biggest reasons is no one wants to deal with Benz maintenance after three years or 50K miles. That is not a good reflection of quality or engineering where I come from but Benz fans want us to believe that Cadillacs plastics are bad while Benz plastics are good, meanwhile ignoring the larger costs of owning the “best or nothing at all” car that no one wants after three years so they just end up leasing them. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15347641/the-most-commonly-leased-car-brands-in-america-and-the-most-commonly-purchased/

Edited by surreal1272

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Why does it matter if they are leases or not? I'm not following how one or the other is a negative.

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2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Let me just save SMK some trouble. In 2016, 53% of Benz cars moved were leases (one of the highest btw) while Cadillac only had 41%. Now there are several reasons why Benz lease numbers are that high (with several good reasons already pointed out) but one the biggest reasons is no one wants to deal with Benz maintenance after three years or 50K miles. That is not a good reflection of quality or engineering where I come from but Benz fans want us to believe that Cadillacs plastics are bad while Benz plastics are good, meanwhile ignoring the larger costs of owning the “best or nothing at all” car that no one wants after three years so they just end up leasing them. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15347641/the-most-commonly-leased-car-brands-in-america-and-the-most-commonly-purchased/

Let's further help SMK out:

Actual options per MB web site:

https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/special_offers/finance_options

Pretty much even MB wants their customers to Lease and not buy.

Here is a story that supports that many Americans are moving to Leasing especially for European branded auto's compard to buying for American or Asian.

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/financial-services/articles/auto-finance-industry-trends-lease-residuals.html

For those that want a better understanding of how dealers make money on selling versus leasing:

https://www.cross-check.com/blog/selling-vs-leasing-how-auto-dealers-make-their-money

Here is the Meat and Potatoes of where the statistics come from:

https://www.statista.com/topics/1721/us-automotive-industry/

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/automotive-lease-volume-reaches-record-high-in-2016-according-to-new-edmunds-report-300397551.html

 

Biggest point of news is the Leasing report which is only up through 2016.

lease-report-jan-2017.pdf

image.png

Interesting read is the Lease Trends report:

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/financial-services/articles/auto-finance-industry-trends-lease-residuals.html

To quote the report: Record auto sales in the past six years have been driven primarily by increases in leasing volume. One quarter of new vehicle transactions, in fact, resulted in a lease.2 As those leases near the end of their term, they are likely to set a particularly high rate of lease returns.

This should make for some amazing CPO deals as these auto's hit the lots.

Additional info on leasing trends:

JAN-2018-us-fsi-hot-topics-in-auto-finance-lease-residuals.pdf

Overall, Audi is #1, then BMW, than MB but this pretty much shows that German brands are not to be owned long term.

I have always felt this, but am surprised to see Lexus and Infiniti in the tops for leasing.

Is anyone surprised by VW being the number 1 top low end auto maker on Leasing? Another German auto company. 

🤔  So what does this really say about long term ownership of German brands when they lead the world in Leasing?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Why does it matter if they are leases or not? I'm not following how one or the other is a negative.

Because it flies in the face of SMKs claim of quality and sales. Let me put it another way. Take away leases altogether. How would MBs numbers stack up vs Cadillac, for example, on just good old fashioned sales? Not very well if current lease numbers are any indicator. That’s mostly because everyone knows the maintenance hell that is Mercedes Benz. It’s not even debatable. For all of Caddy’s flaws, they are far cheaper to maintain than any German make and the Germans wouldn’t have the success they have had if it weren’t for those enticing leasing deals. Again, I’m not knocking the leasing aspect itself as I get why folks do it. However, it flies in the face of this supposed top notch quality of German cars. 

Edited by surreal1272
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10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Why does it matter if they are leases or not? I'm not following how one or the other is a negative.

Leasing ignoring the business benefits from an individual standpoint is usually used to temporarily own something or appear to own something that one would otherwise not be able to afford. So this would tend to go to the badge thing.

The other point that I believe @surreal1272 is getting at is that while the Germans have done an outstanding job of marketing their products, the actual quality seems to not live up to the marketing hype and many of the reports tend to imply that the cost of ownership past the lease period is not worth the actual cost of owning the auto.

German brands are well known to be very expensive to service and repair, thus leasing is the best way to drive one since they seems to have repair issues and the costs of ownership outweighs leasing, thus leading the assumption that the quality is not there for personal long term ownership.

Honestly do you really see many older BMW or Mercedes-benz around? I do not compared to long life of American and asian auto's.

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19 hours ago, ccap41 said:

People act the same with Cadillac, Chevy, Ford, Toyota, etc.. 

Not even comparable when you factor in the reasons for such things. 

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