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5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Because it flies in the face of SMKs claim of quality and sales. Let me put it another way. Take away leases altogether. How would MBs numbers stack up vs Cadillac, for example, on just good old fashioned sales? Not very well if current lease numbers are any indicator. That’s mostly because everyone knows the maintenance hell that is Mercedes Benz. It’s not even debatable. For all of Caddy’s flaws, they are far cheaper to maintain than any German make and the Germans wouldn’t have the success they have had if it weren’t for those enticing leasing deals. Again, I’m not knocking the leasing aspect itself as I get why folks do it. However, it flies in the face of this supposed top notch quality of German cars. 

That's not exactly how that works though.. Just because they don't lease a vehicle doesn't mean the person wouldn't purchase it either. 

Cadillac @ 45% vs Mercedes @ 50% per Dfelt's graph or 42% vs 53% per yours(not sure what the difference is). 

Lexus is known to be reliable yet they have some of the highest lease percentages. Lincoln isn't anything but glorified Fords but they share the same percentage per your link. 

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4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Leasing ignoring the business benefits from an individual standpoint is usually used to temporarily own something or appear to own something that one would otherwise not be able to afford. So this would tend to go to the badge thing.

The other point that I believe @surreal1272 is getting at is that while the Germans have done an outstanding job of marketing their products, the actual quality seems to not live up to the marketing hype and many of the reports tend to imply that the cost of ownership past the lease period is not worth the actual cost of owning the auto.

German brands are well known to be very expensive to service and repair, thus leasing is the best way to drive one since they seems to have repair issues and the costs of ownership outweighs leasing, thus leading the assumption that the quality is not there for personal long term ownership.

Honestly do you really see many older BMW or Mercedes-benz around? I do not compared to long life of American and asian auto's.

Your second paragraph is exactly what I’m saying. Their quality is overrated as they sell on their brand cachet and don’t even do that very much given the higher than average lease numbers. No one wants to actually 

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5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Honestly do you really see many older BMW or Mercedes-benz around? I do not compared to long life of American and asian auto's

About the same number of older Cadillacs and Lincolns around... Okay, that's not true.

I see more Mercedes and BMW's 10-20 years old than Cadillac or Lincoln. 

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Not even comparable when you factor in the reasons for such things. 

What? Fanboys fanboy over their brands. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Leasing ignoring the business benefits from an individual standpoint is usually used to temporarily own something or appear to own something that one would otherwise not be able to afford. So this would tend to go to the badge thing.

The other point that I believe @surreal1272 is getting at is that while the Germans have done an outstanding job of marketing their products, the actual quality seems to not live up to the marketing hype and many of the reports tend to imply that the cost of ownership past the lease period is not worth the actual cost of owning the auto.

German brands are well known to be very expensive to service and repair, thus leasing is the best way to drive one since they seems to have repair issues and the costs of ownership outweighs leasing, thus leading the assumption that the quality is not there for personal long term ownership.

Honestly do you really see many older BMW or Mercedes-benz around? I do not compared to long life of American and asian auto's.

Your second paragraph is exactly what I’m trying to say. Benz quality is overrated and sells on brand cachet and even that is not all that great given the higher than average lease numbers. Without those lease numbers, SMK wouldn’t even have a leg to stand on in regards to sales numbers. More and more people do not want to own Benz and there are good reasons for that, reasons that some folks here choose to ignore because it’s easier to point out the flaws of everyone else. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

About the same number of older Cadillacs and Lincolns around... Okay, that's not true.

I see more Mercedes and BMW's 10-20 years old than Cadillac or Lincoln. 

What? Fanboys fanboy over their brands. 

You are missing the point completely ccap. And you “seeing them” means nothing. I see far more used Caddy’s and Lincoln’s here than the Germans. Who’s right? It doesn’t matter. Fact is that most folks don’t want to own Luxury German cars long term nor do they want them with 100K+ miles in them for reasons already stated. It what would ultimately keep me away from a 1st CLS even though it’s my favorite Benz of the last twenty years. 

Edited by surreal1272

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5 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And you “seeing them” means nothing.

I completely agree but that is what Dfelt asked. 

There is also a pretty dang large percentage of Caddy drivers who don't want to own them very long either, and Lincoln, and Lexus.. that's a pretty solid mix of vehicles and brands. I don't think drawing a line and saying all of those people don't trust owning them beyond 100k miles and they're all afraid of repair costs. 

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Posted (edited)

There is no status in driving your average 5+ year old luxury car. and by 10 years old most are worth about the same as a 10 year old Honda.

 

Edited by frogger
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47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I completely agree but that is what Dfelt asked. 

There is also a pretty dang large percentage of Caddy drivers who don't want to own them very long either, and Lincoln, and Lexus.. that's a pretty solid mix of vehicles and brands. I don't think drawing a line and saying all of those people don't trust owning them beyond 100k miles and they're all afraid of repair costs. 

And that is where we will disagree and I’m going to leave it at that. I’ve just worked car sales in the past and am going by past experiences with customer expectations and the reality of owning German cars long term. 

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Just now, ccap41 said:

But what about Lexus, Lincoln, Acura, and Cadillac? 

Again, you are missing the point. My pointing out the lease was only part of it. 

 

Btw, you said (above) that there shouldn’t be a line at 100K because of repair costs but you said this last week regarding the CLS. 

 

“Completely agree. I actually just looked at Autotrader for them to see what they cost and you're still spending the better part of 20k for a pretty high mileage German car.. Not a situation I would like to be in for that amount of cash

 

That pretty much supports my assertion about German cars and high mileage responsibilities. 

 

And sorry if I’m bouncing back and forth here. Had shoulder surgery last week and these painkillers are a bitch. 

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I'm also not in a position to buy a CLS new. That's a large income gap that could persuade me to care or not care about maintenance costs. Retaining a near 20k used price for a decade old car isn't too shabby. 

 I would also say the same thing minus the word "German" and substitute that with "Luxury" for any of the other brands I listed. 

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A luxury car should have a real usable trunk, Cadillac especially.  Why are they pushing us towards an XT5 or an XT6?  Cadillac for YEARS had big trunks so that you could take your clubs to the golf course.  And have enough space for five sets of clubs!  That tiny trunk belongs to a Smart FourTwo, NOT A CADILLAC.

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2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Let me just save SMK some trouble. In 2016, 53% of Benz cars moved were leases (one of the highest btw) while Cadillac only had 41%. Now there are several reasons why Benz lease numbers are that high (with several good reasons already pointed out) but one the biggest reasons is no one wants to deal with Benz maintenance after three years or 50K miles. That is not a good reflection of quality or engineering where I come from but Benz fans want us to believe that Cadillacs plastics are bad while Benz plastics are good, meanwhile ignoring the larger costs of owning the “best or nothing at all” car that no one wants after three years so they just end up leasing them. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15347641/the-most-commonly-leased-car-brands-in-america-and-the-most-commonly-purchased/

Cadillac can’t offer as good of lease deals as others because their cars depreciate too quickly.  That has long been a Cadillac dealer complaint about not being able to compete with BMW’s offers.

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3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac can’t offer as good of lease deals as others because their cars depreciate too quickly.  That has long been a Cadillac dealer complaint about not being able to compete with BMW’s offers.

Maybe Cadillac should cut production by 50% in order to fix the depreciation issues.

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Posted (edited)

Mercedes also has an unlimited mileage warranty on all those off lease CPO cars which makes for easy resale then they and their dealers make money twice of the same car.  And the 2nd owner gets warranty to 5 years after in service date with no mileage restrictions.  Porsche CPO also has an unlimited mileage warranty for 2 years past factory warranty.

Edited by smk4565
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5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes also has an unlimited mileage warranty on all those off lease CPO cars which makes for easy resale then they and their dealers make money twice of the same car.  And the 2nd owner gets warranty to 5 years after in service date with no mileage restrictions.  Porsche CPO also has an unlimited mileage warranty for 2 years past factory warranty.

Are these end of lease cars?

When the lease is up, the dealership uses its discretion and keeps the end of lease cars that are worth reselling and certifies them with Mercedes or Porsche backing them up with warranties and guarantees?

Is this a new program?

Is this offered in Canada if you know?

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, dfelt said:

Let's further help SMK out:

Actual options per MB web site:

https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/special_offers/finance_options

Pretty much even MB wants their customers to Lease and not buy.

Here is a story that supports that many Americans are moving to Leasing especially for European branded auto's compard to buying for American or Asian.

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/financial-services/articles/auto-finance-industry-trends-lease-residuals.html

For those that want a better understanding of how dealers make money on selling versus leasing:

https://www.cross-check.com/blog/selling-vs-leasing-how-auto-dealers-make-their-money

Here is the Meat and Potatoes of where the statistics come from:

https://www.statista.com/topics/1721/us-automotive-industry/

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/automotive-lease-volume-reaches-record-high-in-2016-according-to-new-edmunds-report-300397551.html

 

Biggest point of news is the Leasing report which is only up through 2016.

lease-report-jan-2017.pdf 191.51 kB · 0 downloads

image.png

Interesting read is the Lease Trends report:

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/financial-services/articles/auto-finance-industry-trends-lease-residuals.html

To quote the report: Record auto sales in the past six years have been driven primarily by increases in leasing volume. One quarter of new vehicle transactions, in fact, resulted in a lease.2 As those leases near the end of their term, they are likely to set a particularly high rate of lease returns.

This should make for some amazing CPO deals as these auto's hit the lots.

Additional info on leasing trends:

JAN-2018-us-fsi-hot-topics-in-auto-finance-lease-residuals.pdf 886.54 kB · 0 downloads

Overall, Audi is #1, then BMW, than MB but this pretty much shows that German brands are not to be owned long term.

I have always felt this, but am surprised to see Lexus and Infiniti in the tops for leasing.

Is anyone surprised by VW being the number 1 top low end auto maker on Leasing? Another German auto company. 

🤔  So what does this really say about long term ownership of German brands when they lead the world in Leasing?

 

Im under the impression that (middle class) Americans...and Canadians...are so into keeping up with the Kardashians and the Joneses, that they have voraciously consumed themselves into oblivion, that the majority do NOT have the means to buy new.

AND...because they are now accustomed to make monthly payments on everything, including making the monthly credit card payments on the bubble gum they bought 6 months ago, that leasing is just about the ONLY way of driving a car...regardless of price tag or luxury or mid-luxury or even on the lowest of echelons of price point in cars...

 

Leasing was always a luxury car thing as soon as leasing was a thing...non?

The problem as I sees it, is when leasing cheap Hondas has become a thing...

Leasing for a car company versus buying changes nothing, for the short term...as it contributes to getting cars built, shipped and rolled out of the showroom floor.

Its just that with 3-4-5 year leases, versusof 6-7-8-9-10 year ownership of vehicles presents different good and bad scenarios...

Good scenarios for short leases: It creates more buyers faster...

Downside....creates used cars as competition to your new car sales

Upside, good marketing makes for more excitement to get the newest ride faster to the people. But Im assuming that also creates less brand loyalty.

 

6-7-8-9 year ownership creates less traffic in showrooms to roll out and sell new vehicles. But if an owner is satisfied with that new car that now is an old car, brand loyalty is stronger?

Anyway...for me...leasing versus buying in the luxury market in the manufacturer point of view means that if Mercedes leases more than Cadillac...welll...good on Mercedes...bad on Cadillac. The name of the game is getting people to your dealership and making them leave with YOUR car regardless of the means...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442

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25 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Are these end of lease cars?

When the lease is up, the dealership uses its discretion and keeps the end of lease cars that are worth reselling and certifies them with Mercedes or Porsche backing them up with warranties and guarantees?

Is this a new program?

Is this offered in Canada if you know?

 

 

 

 

Any Mercedes or Porsche CPO is unlimited mileage warranty but there is a limit on years.   Those could be trades or off lease.  I imagine they do that all over the world.

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21 hours ago, riviera74 said:

A luxury car should have a real usable trunk, Cadillac especially.  Why are they pushing us towards an XT5 or an XT6?  Cadillac for YEARS had big trunks so that you could take your clubs to the golf course.  And have enough space for five sets of clubs!  That tiny trunk belongs to a Smart FourTwo, NOT A CADILLAC.

I agree. For a car that’s supposed to be E-Class size, it should not look like it has less trunk space than a Camaro. Cadillacs not the only one guilty of this but they should be the last one ever accused of having a small trunk. 

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14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Any Mercedes or Porsche CPO is unlimited mileage warranty but there is a limit on years.

That is actually extremely nice. 

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14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Any Mercedes or Porsche CPO is unlimited mileage warranty but there is a limit on years.   Those could be trades or off lease.  I imagine they do that all over the world.

You should probably include the requirements next time. 

For reference, I put Cadillac’s below. There are pros and cons to both but the bigger point I was trying to make is that Cadillac are cheaper to maintain once the warranty is gone. 

3525835B-A16F-4B8E-98F3-8165515FADD8.png

14F4934D-C902-45E8-80F0-E4E8357111E0.png

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Surreal for the requirements 

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

When the lease is up, the dealership uses its discretion and keeps the end of lease cars that are worth reselling and certifies them with Mercedes or Porsche backing them up with warranties and guarantees?

I needed and wanted to learn about the some sort of backround  required for a used Mercedes (or Porsche) to become a certified CPO. 

This is why I asked that question up above. Albeit the wording was not concise to what I meant...

I did not know that there even was such a program and that Mercedes and Porsche did it, let alone Cadillac.

This is a pretty neat thing for end of lease or trade-in cars for the brand itself.  It helps keep brand recognition AND brand loyalty through a car's second lifetime. 

This also forces a brand to keep quality standards high...(well it ought to have that effect anyway on the initial engineering and manufacturing process anyway...) and the deealership's best interest for repeat buyers in the new and used category to keep those potential buyser down the line happy too...for the dealership AND for the brand...

Edited by oldshurst442

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30 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You should probably include the requirements next time.

Why? He was already saying said vehicles were CPO. Nobody was diving into what the requirements were to be a CPO per their respective brand. 

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15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Any Mercedes or Porsche CPO is unlimited mileage warranty but there is a limit on years.   Those could be trades or off lease.  I imagine they do that all over the world.

Was interested to read the details and in the fine print, this warranty is only good on auto's that get certified with less than 124,000 miles and only good up to 124,000 miles for the 2yrs of the warranty. 

Porsche is a 2yr unlimited miles warranty on CPO auto's that have less than 124,000 miles.

https://nationalpreownedporsche.com/approved/

Mercedes-Benz is unlimited miles for the first year only on the CPO, up to an additional 2 years can be purchased giving you a total of 3yrs with unlimited miles during that 3yr period. No limit on the actual miles of the auto.

https://www.mbusa.com/en/cpo

 

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17 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Why? He was already saying said vehicles were CPO. Nobody was diving into what the requirements were to be a CPO per their respective brand. 

Why? Why does it matter to you? I just thought the details were important in the context of the entire conversation about quality, reliability, and lease terms that have been discussed here. 

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Bitchin' about a sedan's lack of trunk space?

I think that complaint should have been front and center 20 years ago when trunk space on sedans were slowly but surely reduced systematically...

1.. by some models becoming bigger than its predecessor but trunk space (and rear leg room) NOT improving

2.  The introduction of coupe style, fast back styling, of the modern sedan but not even offering a hatchback style opening for it ala Tesla Model S or new gen Regal, or European Ford Mondeo/Lincoln MKZ... (or even Cadillac's Escala concept)

3. The explosion of CUVs to replace sedans that sheeple flock to, but in all fairness, the manufactures PUSHING the sheeple towards CUVs...

Lets be honest...

Cadillac sedans that are NOT FWD,  and are RWD are NOT marketed towards trunk space...

Cadillac vehicles that ARE FWD or are of the CUV/SUV  variety are about trunk space.

RWD Cadillac sedans and coupes are geared and marketed (loose term here for Cadillac's marketing effort) more to be of a....fun sporty nature and less about hauling...

The CT6 may have a big trunk, but that is by default as its a longer car...and it doesnt have that fastback, coupe style roofline...

Its more of a traditional sedan body style.

The CT5 and future Cadillac sedans are said to be styled with fastback, lower roofline, coupe styling...

Therefore, Cadillac cars will, going forward,  have shytty trunk space... It shouldnt be such a shocker for us now, and we might as well get used to that idea going forward. 

 

 

 

 

 

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