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25 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But I wanna know why, a SINGLE business man...

Well, Musk managed to get a slow but ever-growing business model going, and to further that goal he HAD to start installing chargers for his devices. The issue in the near future may be that having a proprietary charger is no longer a benefit (and I don't know that it is) to the company, once public chargers become universal irregardless of brand (which they must). Musk set up chargers so his company could sell more vehicles... because the buyers need them.

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Haha, while ignoring the elephant in the room... CALIFORNIA... the biggest whiny brat in the union.

So, you're not wrong, but just wanted to zoom in a bit for more detail.... Storms do happen, no grid is ever 100%.  I lose power shockingly often for being only ~10 miles from a downtown metro ar

Wont happen with either Tesla nor Fisker. It will be a FoMoCo, GM, Toyota, VW that will give the masses an EV that they could afford.         

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The narrative gets old.

  • HOME charging NEGATES the need for all these EV charging stations that supposedly we need.
  • NEW tech batteries as of NOW, but in the next year or two will have 500 mile ranges also NEGATE all these EV charging stations...  The 1 in 5 ooopsie poopsie article is PURELY BULLSHYTE. The kind that I talked about political and big oil push back lies...

From the article

Quote

 

In roughly three minutes, you can fill the gas tank of a Ford Mustang and have enough range to go about 300 miles with its V8 engine.

But for the electric Mustang Mach-E, an hour plugged into a household outlet gave Bloomberg automotive analyst Kevin Tynan just three miles of range.

 

 The PHOQUING MACH E JUST JUST went on sale...  Its barely half a year old...

What the PHOQUE does a Mach E have to do with EV charging times from owners that owned an EV 3-4-5-6-7-8 years ago and NOW just switched BACK to an ICE-V?

NOTHING!!!!

Push back lies...

  • CHARGING times 2-3 years from now WILL drop.   EV charging stations WILL EVENTUALLY  pop up in STRATEGIC highway areas and in the suburbs JUST like how gas stations are now. PROBABLY in the same stations.  Negating the excuse for folk that could NOT charge at home that could NOW charge at a GAS station with the EQUAL amount of time as gassing up...
  • NEW tech batteries will also NOT have the winter blues in cold weather range loss... 
  • All kinds of EV charging solutions are being thought of EVERYWHERE in the world (except for in the United States of America where North Americans are being lied to and are still crying over the same old bullshyte lies...)

 

 

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17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Well, Musk managed to get a slow but ever-growing business model going, and to further that goal he HAD to start installing chargers for his devices. The issue in the near future may be that having a proprietary charger is no longer a benefit (and I don't know that it is) to the company, once public chargers become universal irregardless of brand (which they must). Musk set up chargers so his company could sell more vehicles... because the buyers need them.

Sure...

And VW got caught with a diesel scandal. Germany and the US closed that shyte down. VW's credibility as a green company took a hit, to show the public  that they really are a green company, was forced to go all out EV, the US government FORCED VW to also invest in a charging system...

OK...GM is said to be going all out EV. 3 years ago.

Where is GM and VW to build EV charging systems a la Tesla for THEIR EV cars?

Since Honda is going to use GM EV tech, why isnt VW, GM AND Honda partnering up to have an EV charging coalition?  ESPECIALLY to rival Tesla since they all want to rival Tesla.

Mercedes is said to want to be a Tesla Killer...  (Porsche and Audi too?  Part of VW...to which VW, Hinda and GM could have split the investment costs...)    Where is M-B's charging network?  

All these smart American business men, like Donald J. Trump, where are their business chops?  

Especially for the business man turned politician that wanted to make America great again. Bring back American jobs, yada yada yada.  Oh yeah...he had coal up his ass...

Unfortunately,  there is a great political divide in the US that clutters the mind.  EVERYTHING in the US lately is just political fodder and is weaponized to undermine the OTHER party...

Regarding proprietary Tesla networks and all that, well...  When Tesla sells you a car, Tesla also GIVES you the other standard plugs to charge your Tesla on the other networks.  Looks like Tesla is the smart one... 

  

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

It was 15,000 filling stations plus "half as many curbside pumps". No reason to eliminate those fueling locations I can see.

I'm not denying that historical fact, but I was addressing David's common claim about 'the dawn of the auto industry / the early 1900s' specifically. My post was no attempt to give a complete historical overview.

You didn’t read the second link I provided, where it talks about what folks used to have to do in order to get gas. Also, one really important thing to consider in that second part of your math. Gas stations of today have up to five times as many pumps per station as gas stations in the 1920s which, again, skews your math a bit. And you didn’t want a complete historical overview yet it is 100% relevant to what was being discussed. 
 

One important thing to note about that survey is what it said in the article. 
 

“…that surveyed Californians who purchased an electric vehicle between 2012 and 2018.”

 

Thats three years ago. Now I’m not saying everything is better now but again, three years ago. 
 

 

 

One last thing. The writer of said article (about the survey) needs to review his stuff before posting. Kind of dings the credibility a bit. And I quote:

 

Even with the faster charging, a Chevy Volt he tested still needed nearly six hours to top its range back up to 300 miles from nearly empty”

 

 

 

Read that again if you don’t see the issue there.

And some people can’t even handle putting gas in their damn car. Years ago, when I was driving a tow truck, I picked up two Camrys in which the drivers managed to put full tanks of DIESEL in them, on the same day! 

Edited by surreal1272
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Also, one really important thing to consider in that second part of your math. Gas stations of today have up to five times as many pumps per station as gas stations in the 1920s which, again, skews your math a bit.

It doesn't skew anything because I specifically stated 'locations', not nozzles/plugs. And I mentioned that long distance was not a considerable factor then.
Fueling a car works fine now with 6000 vehicles per fueling location... now imagine 300 cars per location then. Pumps must've stood unused for days (a Model T got around 20 mpg).

12 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You didn’t read the second link I provided, where it talks about what folks used to have to do in order to get gas.

You are correct; after I saw we both looked at the same first link, I didn't check the 2nd. I did now, and I see nothing there that speaks to any great challenges. I also saw the home delivery service for fuel mentioned; early AAA-esque.

Fueling locations went from 22K to 200K in 10 years, pretty remarkable. There are 30K public charging locations in the U.S. now according to Google; Tesla opened their first in 2012; 9 years ago.

Of course, there were basically no restrictions on anyone opening up a fuel service back then, no doubt; not a fair comparison there. Just noting the numbers. 🙂
 

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11 hours ago, balthazar said:

It doesn't skew anything because I specifically stated 'locations', not nozzles/plugs. And I mentioned that long distance was not a considerable factor then.
Fueling a car works fine now with 6000 vehicles per fueling location... now imagine 300 cars per location then. Pumps must've stood unused for days (a Model T got around 20 mpg).

You are correct; after I saw we both looked at the same first link, I didn't check the 2nd. I did now, and I see nothing there that speaks to any great challenges. I also saw the home delivery service for fuel mentioned; early AAA-esque.

Fueling locations went from 22K to 200K in 10 years, pretty remarkable. There are 30K public charging locations in the U.S. now according to Google; Tesla opened their first in 2012; 9 years ago.

Of course, there were basically no restrictions on anyone opening up a fuel service back then, no doubt; not a fair comparison there. Just noting the numbers. 🙂
 

So people having to go to a nearby store with (presumably) gas can in hand, isn’t EXACTLY what David was saying? Seems like your making excuses a bit here by sidestepping that. Help me out here.

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Do people usually go to a store now with a gas can to fuel their vehicle?
Why wouldn't you drive your car to the nearby store then

I'm not sure what point 'hope to have a can' even was. 

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2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Do people usually go to a store now with a gas can to fuel their vehicle?
Why wouldn't you drive your car to the nearby store then

I'm not sure what point 'hope to have a can' even was. 

Then you didn’t pay attention to what he actually said since he was clearly talking about the early 1900s when this took place, ie. he was correct.

 

Moving along...

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He was correct that people didn't drive to the local store to fuel their car, they walked/rode a horse with a can to get fuel ??

That doesn't make any sense.
 

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Maybe the gas man home-delivered gasoline in glass bottles, like the milkman did. 

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4 hours ago, balthazar said:

He was correct that people didn't drive to the local store to fuel their car, they walked/rode a horse with a can to get fuel ??

That doesn't make any sense.
 

What exactly doesn’t make any sense? That’s exactly what they did. 
 

And again, that article you linked was flawed from top to bottom for reasons are covered so maybe it’s just time to move on. 

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Now I must state that you didn’t read my post.
i stated exactly what didn’t make sense, then you asked ‘exactly what doesn’t make sense?’.

C’mon; let’s drag this out; spring’s in the air and I feel energized!

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On 4/30/2021 at 2:37 PM, balthazar said:

"Hoping you have a can"?? 🙄

So you're saying it was acceptable 100 years ago, so it should be acceptable today?
People don't want to do ANYTHING like they did 20 years ago, never mind 120 years ago!

- - - - -
But to repeat- automobiles were not used 100 years ago like you seem to think they were. There was no long-distance traveling, or looking for unknown gas stations. There was no significant range anxiety. Cars were primarily occasional-use / local vehicles (at the point you imply there were no plentiful gas stations). Fueling locations were more common for lesser demand.

In 1920 in the U.S., there were about 22,000 filling stations & curbside pumps, for about 7,000,000 vehicles.
That's 318 vehicles per location

In 2020, in the U.S., there were about 60,500 gas stations for about 375,000,000 vehicles.
That's 6188 vehicles per location.

Seems you need to drop your ill-informed claim that people were scrabbling around, panicked, looking for fuel 100 years ago. Wasn't the case.

- - - - - 
Today, you have a fledgling & compromised (not-uncommonly plagued by defects & restrictions) public charging system, or a slow home system, in a time people depend on their autos daily. It's not a secretive IC cabal pushing this, it's just the facts.

OK, lets clear some things up.

First off there was no interstate as has been pointed out by others here, so ICE auto's was a novelty of the early 1900's for local driving, much the way EVs have started out as Compliance / Commuter auto's.

Second, gas stations be it 15,000 or 22,000 were NOT the gas stations of today. You take 

Case in point 1917

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Today 2021

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Or the common Costco 32 pump mega gas stations

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The point being is for 100 years, very common for people to have a gas can to go get gas when they run out and it still happens today as it did in the early 1900's. The Novel  rich person toy ICE auto would break down or run out of gas and the next thing was a person on a horse going to the local pump to get some fuel or get it towed in to be repaired.

No matter how you look at it, ICE had a hard start to common use and every day sight. 

You state 60,500 gas stations and yet everywhere I look we peaked in 2016 at 164,200 and as of the end of 2020 the figure I keep finding is 111,000 stations. The difference is a couple pumps in the early 1900's compared to 18 to 32 plus pumps per station today.

So yes, I will stick with the fact that the much smaller stations of the early 1900's were not found on every corner everywhere like they are today meaning that some people just might have had to borrow or ride a horse to get fuel if stuck on a road some place in the early days. Difference is that you have AAA today that can come to you and give you a charge so your EV can get to a local charging station or at least to a 110 outlet to trickle charge.

EV's have had the same hard start and are becoming more common every day. 

Benefit of EV's is that if one so CHOOSES, they can install a 220V home charger to ensure just like their cell phone that their auto starts every day off with a full charge. Becoming more and more common. We also see more and more commercial chargers for a fee showing up.

Yes ICE will be here till 2200 easily, but that does not mean we cannot also move to better, cleaner and less maintenance needed auto's.

Expensive at first, so true just like the common person could not afford the early auto's and Ford helped lower that cost to a mass market purchase for many people. 

I BELIEVE EV's will get there too. YOUR RIGHT, NO ONE wants to do things the way they were 120 years ago, YET change in habits are slow for some, fast for others and EVs are not your 1900's ICE or EV of that era.

Today a little common sense and if you want an EV, you can have one new or used with many more choices coming and YOU CAN CHOOSE to be CHEAP or PAY to have slow or fast charging.

Everyone embraces change differently, just look how some of us love our advanced smartphones and others still cling to the past of a flip phone. Nothing wrong and I am not forcing the flip phone users of which my parents are part of that group to change, but lets stop the attacks against new technology and the humans who do want to embrace the change of the auto.

If we care about society, our awesome multi-cultural world, then we all should want to do our part to help reduce green house gas, improve quality of life and work to better co-exist with this planet.

While you point out the everyone depends on auto's we also have a much more advanced public transit system than we had 120 years ago. There is always ways to get around if the EV owner was irresponsible in plugging in their auto last night to help charge it up.

We all have choices and EVs require a change in habits that I understand and accept some are not willing to do. So be it and as we all know, ICE is still here for those that want them even as EVs become more common.

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Yes; running out of fuel (gas or kWs) happened then and now and will in the future. However, it's not a commonplace characteristic of early 1900's (or today's) motoring tho, so the mention is irrelevant.

The lack of major highways in the early 1900s, PLUS the nature of most people's existences then, kept the vast majority of people in the same immediate area in the U.S.. The vast majority of folk then were farmers or small business owners who were tied to those occupations daily. Yes; there were a small quantity of those that traveled (primarily by train), and there are stories of various makes of early autos going vast distances and across the nation, but again; so infrequent that the mention is irrelevant in the context of 'everyday life with an automobile'.

Refueling points were not as common as today (no one claimed they were 'on every corner' and they aren't today), but the automobile was far MORE uncommon. Gas stations, curbside fueling locations, common farm-based fuel supplies and mobile fuel delivery services (as mentioned above) in the early 1900's easily fed the infrequent luxury use of the automobile. Since the auto then was not a means of commuting or regular reliance, it was far easier to avoid running out of fuel then... with one exception- many early autos had no fuel gauges so you used what gas station refuelers still use today- a stick of wood (marked or unmarked) to measure tank fuel levels.

Trying to paint the average auto owner in the early 1900s in these rarified lights as commonplace is disingenuous, and these still-occurring instances (running out of fuel) are easily avoided by 99.9% of auto owners, then & now.

The one major difference between then & now is how integrated / necessary automobile transportation is today; it's ingrained. In the early 1900s, it was like a home sound/stereo system; used at an infrequent whim. I think the percentage of Model T's that were bought and converted to a lifetime of farm-only use (were such a number available) would be shocking. Imagine buying a Tesla today and never having it leave your property, just powering other devices with it.

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Latest EV info released.

Jeep Wrangler will offer a Professional Performance 2 inch lift kit for the Wrangler 4xe.

Off-road lift kit for Jeep Wrangler 4xe is a plug-in hybrid first (greencarreports.com)

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Car and Driver supposedly got their hands on an Internal Document that shows Ford will offer a new F-150 Lighting performance pickup but on the F-150 EV truck line. Top end will be the Lighting edition which makes total sense here to me.

Ford F-150 Lightning Name Will Return for Electric Pickup (caranddriver.com)

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Citroen is returning to the US this year but in a car sharing platform for select dense cities using the Citroen Ami EV. This was unveiled in 2020 to celebrate the 60th year of this name plate. This auto is being used in Europe and select Asian cities and will start in DC and San Francisco as they ramp up production and expand into cities across North America.

Cute Citroën Ami EV coming to US, as part of Free2Move car-sharing (greencarreports.com)

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Ya wanna say a face only a mother could love, This is it!!!

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It is ugly coming and going.

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April '20 vs. April '21 United Kingdom sales numbers are in.

BE sales rose 566%, from 1,374 units to 9,152.

Diesel IC sales rose 1,198% from 1,079 to 14,012.
MHEV diesel sales rose 12,346%, from 75 to 9,335.
Gas IC sales rose 4,482%, from 1,553 to 71,173.

BE, PHE and HE sales totaled 30,545.
Diesel, MHE diesel, gas, and MHE gas sales totaled 111,038.
Total of all : 141,583. Market share of pure BE vehicles : 6%. 

2030 only 8.5 years away.

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It is FUNNY, you can find so many Tesla Channels and these hard core fans review the Mach-E and trash it for the most part. Now we come across a Ford Mach-E hard core fan from hair and cloths to their own YouTube channel all about how awesome the Mach-E is.

They rented a Tesla Y for a couple of days and did a 1hr review of likes and dislikes and as we all know, when you drive a certain brand for a number of years, you become comfy with the controls. 

Video is worth a watch, but you can skip to the end and listen to their review on the Tesla Y. Some very valid points I believe.

 

Hyundai before it becomes available for sale everywhere are already getting early builds out for review and people seem to be very impressed with their BEVs.

We Drive The Hyundai Ioniq 5: It's Tech-Filled A Winner (insideevs.com)

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Seems Tesla might just be headed to quarterly losses unless they can figure out a change in behavior due to the following story on Stellantis.

Stellantis won't need Tesla emissions credits: EV maker set to lose hundreds of millions (greencarreports.com)

To recap the full story above, Tesla has relied on selling their emission credits to the tune of $1.6 Billion a year to other auto makers that need them such as FCA which would spend half a billion buying Tesla Emission credits to make up for their lack of fuel efficient auto's. Hellcat and TRX are just two examples of high CO2 output, low MPG, yup 10 mpg city driving and as such FCA was the major buyer of Tesla Emission credits. Now that they have merged with PSA Group to form Stellantis, the BEV, Hybrid and fuel efficient micro cars and others on up now balance the FCA Portfolio to where they no longer have to buy credits.

Tesla has a long term contract inked with FCA going back a Decade that ends in December 31st 2022. Stellantis CFO Richard Palmer has stated with the Financial Times that they will no longer have to buy emission credits since the global fleet is balanced, ending the Emission credit need.

Tesla sold $518 million last quarter to make up for FCA emission issues. This gave them a quarterly profit of $438 million.

One wonders how profitable Tesla will stay now that they lost their largest customer for their emission credits?

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Cool Read, Latest survey of what people want as Priorities in BEVs.

Survey: Electric Vehicles' Range Jumps to Top of Priorities for Consumers (autolist.com)

Electric Priorities
Consumers in the 2021 survey were asked to pick their top three biggest purchase considerations for an EV. Here’s a breakdown of what percentage of respondents chose each EV priority:

  • Range: 61 percent
  • Price: 50 percent
  • Charging infrastructure: 43 percent
  • Recharge times: 36 percent
  • Battery efficiency: 35 percent

Compare this to the 2019 Survey

These results are notable for how they compare to Autolist’s EV survey from 2019. In that survey, the top five responses were as follows:

  • Price: 58 percent
  • Charging infrastructure: 44 percent
  • Range: 43 percent
  • Battery efficiency: 39 percent
  • Recharge times: 32 percent

Interesting response to the ability to charge from home:

Autolist’s survey asked respondents how important to their purchase consideration was the ability to charge an EV at home. The results were conclusive:

  • 70 percent of respondents said it was ‘Essential to their purchase consideration.’
  • 14 percent of respondents said it was ‘Somewhat important.’
  • Nine percent of respondents said ‘Unsure.’
  • Four percent of respondents said ‘Other.’
  • Two percent of respondents said ‘Not important at all.’

I do find this one question interesting in regards to Tesla:

The Supercharged Elephant in the Room
The importance of home charging to consumers was also reflected in their outlook on what makes Tesla EVs so appealing.

When Autolist asked survey respondents to pick the three most appealing aspects of Teslas, only a quarter of shoppers that Autolist polled cited the automaker’s proprietary Supercharging network of charging stations (ranking it fifth out of 11 possible answers):

  • Performance/handling: 42 percent
  • Range: 36 percent
  • Exterior/Interior Style: 32 percent
  • Battery Efficiency: 30 percent
  • Tesla's Supercharging Network: 25 percent
  • Autopilot: 23 percent
  • Price: 19 percent
  • Recharge Time: 18 percent
  • Resale Value: 15 percent
  • Musk's Leadership/Vision: 13 percent
  • Brand Cache: 9 percent
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Seems J.D.Powers has a review of all the new apps being created for connectivity to your auto especially if it is a Hybrid or BEV and Tesla which used to lead the market is now falling behind as other OEMs bring their Hybrids / BEVs to market and release smartphone apps.

U.S. OEM App Benchmark Study | J.D. Power (jdpower.com)

Unfortunately to read more than the 60,000 foot over view, you have to pay and lucky for us various sites did pay to see what was said. 

Ford Authority seems to feel the review is praising the Ford app for all of Ford auto's.

J.D. Power Praises FordPass In First-Ever EV App Benchmark Study (fordauthority.com)

Then you have Green Car Reports that feels a bit differently about what the report says and does go into more details. I will say that the Tesla being synced to your apple watch so you can manage your auto is cool. Seems VW has two apps, one for ICE and one for EV and they are as different as night and day with ICE being more usable which is weird as the end users would want to do pretty much the same stuff be it an EV or ICE in regards to locking, unlocking, heating up or cooling down the interior.

EV smartphone apps for Tesla and VW panned, Kia lauded in study (greencarreports.com)

Over all an interesting review that shows software design is becoming a more important part to the driving experience than one would have thought.

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