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Some people, not surprisingly, prefer the tactile and audio impulses of a reciprocating power plant, a stepped, planetary gearbox and a tuned dual exhaust. Funny, that.

On the heels of the news piece where something like 20% of BE vehicle owner are switching back to IC, I wouldn't remotely be surprised to see this 'de-electrifying' -especially in vintage vehicles- gain momentum. 

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11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I wouldn't remotely be surprised to see this 'de-electrifying' -especially in vintage vehicles- gain momentum. 

Did it ever gain momentum in the first place?     (on vintage vehicles being electrified)

I dont think it ever was THAT huge of a thing. 

As with "sacrilegious"  engine swaps like a Toyota twin turboed inline 6 being dropped in a '69 Camaro or an LS swap in a Mark IV Supra or in an air-cooled Porsche 911  not bothering me, I dont care if a battery electric powertrain gets to be swapped into a classic car.   

But...I do hurt just a tad inside when the V8 goes away for an electric motor...

 

I do find THIS trend:  "On the heels of the news piece where something like 20% of BE vehicle owner are switching back to IC"   to be quite interesting though.

Not good for the 2035 ICE ban I must admit.   Even though I DO think its coming because its more to do with worldwide government regs rather than market place acceptance, there might be a push back by consumers for regs like these...    

Edited by oldshurst442
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55 minutes ago, balthazar said:

On the heels of the news piece where something like 20% of BE vehicle owner are switching back to IC

That was from a study dating back to 2019 (from 2015-2019 EV owners) which was mostly due to people not doing a little research and making sure that had viable charging options at home (like folks in rental homes, condos, or apartments). Much has changed on that front since then.

 

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-owners-switch-gas-power-study/

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Some people, not surprisingly, prefer the tactile and audio impulses of a reciprocating power plant, a stepped, planetary gearbox and a tuned dual exhaust. Funny, that.

But much like the number of folks who grow up knowing how to drive a stick, that number is going down every year. The younger generations know less and less to what you are referring and twenty years form now, hardly any will grow up knowing that.

Edited by surreal1272
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1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Did it ever gain momentum in the first place? (on vintage vehicles being electrified)

I dont think it ever was THAT huge of a thing. 

Of course not- it has almost zero appeal appeal-wise or financially. 

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

But much like the number of folks who grow up knowing how to drive a stick, that number is going down every year. The younger generations know less and less to what you are referring and twenty years form now, hardly any will grow up knowing that.

I'm not sure I get what you're speaking to. 

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17 hours ago, balthazar said:

Of course not- it has almost zero appeal appeal-wise or financially. 

I'm not sure I get what you're speaking to. 

Totally disagree with you on the Appeal as there are those that BEVs appeal much more so than an ICE.

Just like Boomers and leaded gas, every year older people die off and those that say we reached our best in the early 70's are less and less and more people want their Cell Phone Smart Car rather than a traditional auto.

Just finished up a family dinner and I asked my kids, my nieces and nephews and their spouses and not a single one could understand why anyone would want to drive a Stick shift even though both my kids learned on one, they would rather just go in D and drive away. Also everyone of them is excited for future options of BEVs as they would rather than deal with all the maintenance / gas on their current auto and just plug in at night from home.

Yes less than 30 of us, but no one is an auto enthusiast like me or you and the more common approach is an appliance auto to get from point A to B and back.

Future is going to embrace the simplicity of BEV over ICE.

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So your opinion is today's young kids are going to undertake retro-fitting vintage cars into battery-electric ones?? 

Where they getting the $70 grand to do that??? (EVWest charge: $50K + decent vintage car needing nothing else done to it: $20K). 😆 😆 😆 

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19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So your opinion is today's young kids are going to undertake retro-fitting vintage cars into battery-electric ones?? 

Where they getting the $70 grand to do that??? (EVWest charge: $50K + decent vintage car needing nothing else done to it: $20K). 😆 😆 😆 

It’s no different than the idiots who spend $50K to jack up and put useless lights all around a pick up that already cost them $50K. There is always a market for suckers and their money. Thought you knew that. 

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Of course not- it has almost zero appeal appeal-wise or financially. 

I'm not sure I get what you're speaking to. 

I was comparing what I said to your statement about folks preferring the tactile feel and such. Those same kind of folks are dwindling in numbers much like folks who drive a stick shift. 

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idiots who "don't want to be bothered going to the gas station" don't dump "$100K" into lifted pickups. You're describing 2 completely different idiots.

45 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I was comparing what I said to your statement about folks preferring the tactile feel and such. Those same kind of folks are dwindling in numbers much like folks who drive a stick shift. 

No argument on stick shifters, but let me ask- what's your source for the 'dwindling numbers'- are values on GTOs and Mustangs and '55 Chevys falling steadily recently?

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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

idiots who "don't want to be bothered going to the gas station" don't dump "$100K" into lifted pickups. You're describing 2 completely different idiots.

No argument on stick shifters, but let me ask- what's your source for the 'dwindling numbers'- are values on GTOs and Mustangs and '55 Chevys falling steadily recently?

I’d assume once the Baby Boomers exit the hobby over the next 20 years or so, values will fall…

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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

idiots who "don't want to be bothered going to the gas station" don't dump "$100K" into lifted pickups. You're describing 2 completely different idiots.

No argument on stick shifters, but let me ask- what's your source for the 'dwindling numbers'- are values on GTOs and Mustangs and '55 Chevys falling steadily recently?

You have totally misread what I’ve said apparently. I’m talking about people not cars. Robert covered it. Eventually, that demand simply ages out. 
 

And both of those idiots fall under my same point about suckers. Something about a fool and their money. 

Edited by surreal1272
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56 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Eventually, that demand simply ages out. 

It might, it's certainly possible. You can get a Duesenberg or a Cord or a V-16 Cadillac for a song and a Coke, since all the folk who grew up with them are dead. 🙄 

If there's actual evidence of "dwindling numbers" as far as collectible values, the aftermarket automotive market or people no longer building a vehicle 'their way' in uncountable numbers, I'd be interested in reading it.

Remember where I came into this sub-discussion; with someone taking a BE powertrain OUT of a '67 Riviera in order to put a 430 CI V8 and a non-overdrive automatic back in. 

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Another one bites the dust...soon enough.

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/14/lordstown-motors-ceo-cfo-resign-stock-price-falls/

"It is the latest setback for the company, which warned last week it might not have enough cash to fund development of its first truck or even survive the next 12 months if it can’t raise more capital. In March, the startup disclosed a Securities and Exchange Commission probe of its operations after a short seller said its technology was flawed and that preorders for its truck were nonbinding.

Shares fell as much as 20% in premarket trading Monday. The stock was down 11% to $10.11 as of 7:55 a.m. in New York.

In a separate statement, Lordstown said a board investigation concluded the company had made certain statements about vehicle preorders that did not hold up to scrutiny."

 

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Ya all know that I am all for alternative fuel solutions, but for some auto companies ya have to really question the lack of common sense in development  R&D dollars spent.

Off-road-capable Land Rover Defender fuel-cell prototype confirmed under development (greencarreports.com)

Land Rover has announced they are currently working on their own Fuel-Cell prototype to have what they say will be a very green solution for off-road use.

Considering the lack of infrastructure and the needs for a very high pressure fuel tank on top of it taking more energy to create a gallon of Hydrogen fuel compared to what you get out of it, this makes NO SENSE to me. Not like your going to find a Hydrogen fuel supply in Africa, South America or so many other places in the world if you are off roading.

I honestly do not get why they are IMHO wasting the millions to create a solution that the rest of the industry has clearly stated is a niche product. Even GM has stated, Hydrogen or Fuel Cell auto's have their use in a very narrow vertical use such as trucking.

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https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4

1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows

Roughly one in five plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) owners switched back to owning gas-powered cars, in large part because charging the batteries was a pain in the… trunk, the researchers found. 

Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace.

"If you don't have a Level 2, it's almost impossible," said Tynan, who has tested a wide range of makes and models of PEVs over the years for his research.

Even with the faster charging, a Chevy Bolt he tested still needed nearly six hours to top its range back up to 300 miles from nearly empty — something that takes him just minutes at the pump with his family SUV.

Public charging stations may look like the electric version of the gas station, but nearly two-thirds of PEV drivers in the survey said they didn't use them. Exactly why they didn't use the public stalls was not specified.

EVs have come a long way in recent years in terms of range, safety, comfort, and tech features, but Hardman and Tal note that very little has changed in terms of how they are recharged.

"It should not be assumed that once a consumer purchases a PEV they will continue owning one," Hardman and Tal wrote. "What is clear is that this could slow PEV market growth and make reaching 100% PEV sales more difficult."

 
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3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4

1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows

Roughly one in five plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) owners switched back to owning gas-powered cars, in large part because charging the batteries was a pain in the… trunk, the researchers found. 

Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace.

"If you don't have a Level 2, it's almost impossible," said Tynan, who has tested a wide range of makes and models of PEVs over the years for his research.

Even with the faster charging, a Chevy Bolt he tested still needed nearly six hours to top its range back up to 300 miles from nearly empty — something that takes him just minutes at the pump with his family SUV.

Public charging stations may look like the electric version of the gas station, but nearly two-thirds of PEV drivers in the survey said they didn't use them. Exactly why they didn't use the public stalls was not specified.

EVs have come a long way in recent years in terms of range, safety, comfort, and tech features, but Hardman and Tal note that very little has changed in terms of how they are recharged.

"It should not be assumed that once a consumer purchases a PEV they will continue owning one," Hardman and Tal wrote. "What is clear is that this could slow PEV market growth and make reaching 100% PEV sales more difficult."

 

FAKE NEWS:

Again as your own posts shows and the twisting by ICE fan not wanting to admit the difference then and now and the idiot at Business insider that this is all based on OLD OUT OF DATE DATA.

QUOTE:

That difference is night and day, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Energy by University of California Davis researchers Scott Hardman and Gil Tal that surveyed Californians who purchased an electric vehicle between 2012 and 2018. 

THIS IS NOT A NEW STUDY, It was published 3 years ago. Now if very different than then and as has already been posted by @surreal1272 in this study, folks that changed back to ICE did so as they did not look at how they would charge their auto. No charger at their house, apartment, condo or in their general area to make it easy to recharge.

Lets stop posting the FUD please.

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And the article, BECAUSE its old news, doesnt even mention the new generation battery tech that ALLOWS for fast charging that WILL be on the EVs as soon as 2021-2022.  And even those batteries will be improved upon shortly thereafter.     It just talks about charging levels...  

 

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Technically, the Corvette EV Hybrid was supposed to come out in 2021 USING Ultium battery tech...

And its still rumoured that Chevy could still sell the Hybrid in late December....although I doubt it myself...

But yeah...   THAT kind of battery tech is JUST around the corner and if it werent for the chip shortage, it WOULD have definitely been 2021... 

 

 

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1 hour ago, David said:

OUT OF DATE DATA

Not for most folk it isn't. Incremental, evolutionary change has happened, not revolutionary. 

A 2019 Microsoft analysis found 162 million Americans didn't have broadband internet access. An entity called BroadBandNow in '20 pegged it closer to 42 million. No one is completely sure.

Point being; change takes time, and if you think charging scenarios are vastly different than 2020 (the date the report was released) to now, I'd question that hard.

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It depends on how you want to interpret how fast change happens...

I bet you that 2019 microsoft analysis included homeless people in that 162 million population.  Hobos, Amish, older  folk from the silent gen that happened to be still alive,  older boomers...  

The thing is though..why dont we interpret how fast American people went to NOT owning a PC in the 1980s to owning 4 computers in the late 2010s...in a span of a short 30 years in adapting not only a computer and dial up internet but 4 computer devices...  YES...4.  

1. Ditching the PC AND the laptop in the process BUT owning at least 2 tablets...or a combination of 1 tablet and 1 laptop. Or even 1 PC and 1 laptop...  

2. smart phones 

3. smart watch

And there will be a 5th computer device because cars in 2021 DO have a tablet on their dashboards...and in 2022 and in 2023...the MAJORITY will have that...

Covid in 2020 pretty much sealed our fate in being connected 24/7... 

The thing is...if we go even further into the details...in the 1940s, not everybody had a phone.  The communication towers to connect folk from town to town was inexistent.  It took 30 years for the ENTIRE US to be connected by phone. 

But lets talk about how fast fiberoptics and satellite communications  accelerated the connection and adaptations of folk AROUND THE GLOBE for cell phones and the internet...  It took the same 30 years, but connected the world... made people adapt. 

Sure...one could use the poorest of the poor countries to tell us that these people dont even have regular analog phones.  True, but these folk barely have toilets in their huts as well still...

 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I bet you that 2019 microsoft analysis included homeless people in that 162 million population.

Interesting assumption; asking someone who has no home if their home has internet. Kinda doubt it was a component.

 

19 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

It took 30 years for the ENTIRE US to be connected by phone.

Probably a lot longer

So.... 🤔 .... how long will it take consumers to fully adapt to BE vehicles & charging at home?

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2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Interesting assumption; asking someone who has no home if their home has internet. Kinda doubt it was a component.

 

Probably a lot longer

So.... 🤔 .... how long will it take consumers to fully adapt to BE vehicles & charging at home?

Id say...by 2035

it will be the law...

And about the homeless thing and not being a component.

well...it was an Microsoft analysis, so Ill give you that.  It wasnt a biased type of survey to convey a biased form of info.  

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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Im not gonna argue the 2035 ban failing. It probably will. In the US. 

In Quebec, I think its almost law now, if not, it will be and it will stick.

But aside from the law aspect of it, for people adapting EVs and the discussion we are having here. if it werent for the threat of a law, Im not so dense to understand that change of that magnitude DOES take time. An enormous amount of time.  

We gave discussed this before and a change of THAT magnitude COULD happen for America to be fully EV by 2035. But...for THAT to happen, the WHOLE country needs to be on the same page. And Im not talking about a political divide here, Im talking about the parties involved (EV car makers, charging pump makers, electricity producers, housing contractors, businesses like grocery chains, restaurant chains, government money for certain things to happen, etc)...all need to work IN SYNC. But that aint gonna happen as nobody in the US is on the same page...and I repeat, I aint talking about political parties and leaning left or right...Im talking about the LOGISTICAL people involved... 

Norway, Quebec...phoquing little island in Greece for phoque's sake... are an example of what it actually takes for a 2035 ban to actually happen

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-02/greek-island-plans-green-energy-shift-to-power-electric-vw-fleet

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130195_vw-project-to-transition-greek-model-island-to-electric-vehicles-renewable-power

I know Norway and its citizens and their businesses have been committed. 

I know Quebec is trying hard to make that happen. But admittedly slower than Norway. But then again, our electrical grid is already robust, some of our businesses like restaurant chains and grocery stores and all government building all have chargers. Indoor parking lots and malls and outdoor downtown streets have plenty of chargers and many many more to come.  Its a law already that ALL new homes, condos included, being built NEED to have a level 2 charging system.    Quebec subsidizes not only new EV car sales with huge incentives, but also subsidizes  home owners, business owners, anybody that wants to install an EV charger of any level.  

In the US...all we still talk about is how charging is  s-l-o-w. 

How Americans need range. More range and more range and more range and how charging times are  s-l-o-w because that one time an American will go on a road trip where an American doesnt already fly to that destination anyway because driving has become a chore for him...but we wont let THAT fact out of the bag...

 

 

 

 

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