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47 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I may have seen 1 S2000 in the last 10 years. Of course, they’re too bland for me to notice.

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

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Just now, David said:

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

Neighbor down the street has a silver one that comes out in nice weather.  Neat car, too bad Honda didn’t evolve it. 

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I do not know what the automotive world would think of a RWD/AWD roadster EV of the likes of a modern S2000 or if Toyota and Subaru would join in and make their 86/BRZ into a Honda competitor.

What I do know is what I think of it. And THAT rendering above is quite an appealing package.  Its niiiiiice! 

image.png

Now...imagine if GM could also offer one as a new Solstice/Sky as a Buick...or as a baby Corvette?!

Ill use the coupe from Pontiac and the roadster from Saturn as the Sky was never offered that coupe style...

TopWorldAuto >> Photos of Pontiac Solstice GXP - photo galleries

HD wallpaper: Saturn Sky Turbo 3, red convertible coupe, Cars, mode of  transportation | Wallpaper Flare

Edited by oldshurst442
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2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I do not know what the automotive world would think of a RWD/AWD roadster EV of the likes of a modern S2000 or if Toyota and Subaru would join in and make their 86/BRZ into a Honda competitor.

What I do know is what I think of it. And THAT rendering above is quite an appealing package.  Its niiiiiice! 

image.png

Now...imagine if GM could also offer one as a new Solstice/Sky as a Buick...or as a baby Corvette?!

Ill use the coupe from Pontiac and the roadster from Saturn as the Sky was never offered that coupe style...

TopWorldAuto >> Photos of Pontiac Solstice GXP - photo galleries

HD wallpaper: Saturn Sky Turbo 3, red convertible coupe, Cars, mode of  transportation | Wallpaper Flare

Agree, I think the artist really did a nice job on a future S2000 car.

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14 hours ago, David said:

They are very popular around here especially in the road rally clubs.

A lot of them at autocross and track day events.  Still one of the best driving sports cars.  Prices on used ones are crazy.

One of the reasons it was so good is it was light.  Not sure BEV version will be as good due to the battery weight.  Another reason it is so desirable - it has one of the greatest manual transmissions.  That will be lost too in BEV.

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3 hours ago, ykX said:

A lot of them at autocross and track day events.  Still one of the best driving sports cars.  Prices on used ones are crazy.

One of the reasons it was so good is it was light.  Not sure BEV version will be as good due to the battery weight.  Another reason it is so desirable - it has one of the greatest manual transmissions.  That will be lost too in BEV.

I honestly think manual is overrated. Distraction from driving aggressively on curvy roads.

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18 minutes ago, David said:

I honestly think manual is overrated. Distraction from driving aggressively on curvy roads.

Said not one car enthusiast ever.

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1 hour ago, ykX said:

Said not one car enthusiast ever.

I am the One!, Love racing, Love aggressive driving, Enjoyed when I was younger the shifting thing for a while, but honestly, a dual clutch paddle shift or just total auto is fine as they are faster than manual and once focused on attacking the road/course, the shifting thing is not even a thought.

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On a track, I get what David is saying but it certainly is NOT a distraction from driving the other 99.9% of the time, on public roads. 

17 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

image.png

They gave that thing damn-near FWD proportions up front. The wheels are pushed too far inward by like 6 inches. 

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Almost all racing cars have manual or semi-manual transmissions, obviously that is not a distraction for racing drivers.  And since racing is about getting that extra 0.1% to be faster, it is still faster then automatics.  Except for drag racing, but that's different.

On the road, every true enthusiast have no issues shifting, if you do it long enough it comes automatically, you definitely don't need to think about it, but absolutely enhances the pleasure of driving.    

Edited by ykX
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9 minutes ago, ykX said:

Almost all racing cars have manual or semi-manual transmissions, obviously that is not a distraction for racing drivers.  And since racing is about getting that extra 0.1% to be faster, it is still faster then automatics.  Except for drag racing, but that's different.

On the road, every true enthusiast have no issues shifting, if you do it long enough it comes automatically, you definitely don't need to think about it, but absolutely enhances the pleasure of driving.    

I will disagree with you that Manual is faster than automatics in racing. I also would challenge that all drivers enjoy the pleasure of manuals. I grew up driving manual from age of 12 till my mid 30's and when you live in a mountainous area, hills are not easy for many people with manuals. Eventually one moves to automatic over manual and even hard core enthusiasts will have some that prefer automatic over manual. 

I am one of those enthusiasts that have had more than enough manual and no desire to go back ever. 

I will admit that the 3 on the tree in my 69 camper special F250 was a blast to drive and a great leg workout. :P 

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

On a track, I get what David is saying but it certainly is NOT a distraction from driving the other 99.9% of the time, on public roads. 

They gave that thing damn-near FWD proportions up front. The wheels are pushed too far inward by like 6 inches. 

Is it me or does that S2000 have some BMW style to it? Seems to remind me of a BMW 2 door, but cannot think of the specific model right now.

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24 minutes ago, David said:

I am one of those enthusiasts that have had more than enough manual and no desire to go back ever. 

You drive trucks, and I am not sure when, if ever you drove a proper sports car with proper manual transmission.  So lets agree to disagree on that part.

24 minutes ago, David said:

I will disagree with you that Manual is faster than automatics in racing.

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

Edited by ykX
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3 minutes ago, ykX said:

You drive trucks, and I am not sure when, if ever you drove a proper sports car with proper manual transmission.  So lets agree to disagree on that part.

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

I was a teen at one time though still 6'6" tall was only 225lbs so I could fold up into the race cars my dad and I built out of Camaro's in his shop.

Agree to disagree, Agreed! :) 

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Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

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2 hours ago, ykX said:

Formula 1, which is the fastest form of racing in the world uses semi-automatic sequential gearbox.  Pretty much any other form of road racing uses similar transmissions.  So you can disagree on that, but you will be wrong.

If it is so much faster than a automatic, then why did Formula 1 remove full auto transmissions, along with lunch and traction control, almost 15 years ago so that drivers would not have an unfair advantage? Clearly someone thought having an automatic had an advantage. 

Edited by surreal1272
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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

And lets just skip the part where NASCAR drivers don’t even have to use the clutch pedal to shift. Not exactly “old school” driving there, much like the sequential ones touted are “old school” manuals. If it doesn’t involved BOTH the left foot and the right hand to shift, then it’s not a true manual IMO.

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13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And lets just skip the part where NASCAR drivers don’t even have to use the clutch pedal to shift. Not exactly “old school” driving there, much like the sequential ones touted are “old school” manuals. If it doesn’t involved BOTH the left foot and the right hand to shift, then it’s not a true manual IMO.

Definition of automatic transmission

: a system in a vehicle that changes gears at different speeds without direct control by the driver.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

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15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Manuals in racing is not about it shifting faster; it’s completely about controlling exactly what gear you’re in, when you want to be in it. An auto will almost always shift faster, but then it’s the gearbox deciding what gear you’re in, not you. Bottom line: an automatic race car can shift faster, yet cover ground slower.

I think NASCAR uses manuals because IDK if an auto gearbox could handle the temps of 2-3 hrs of 200+ MPH. Have to have a turbo to cool the trans cooler.

Exactly.

At one point Randy Pobst at Motor Trend tested two version of Camaro ZL1 on track: 10 speed automatic and the six speed.  He was slightly faster in the manual car.

How Did A Manual Chevy Camaro ZL1 Beat The 10-Speed Automatic Version? | CarBuzz

Also, while ultimately today's automatic transmissions are faster shifting and more efficient, driving a good car with manual transmission on a fun road is a great pleasure.  That's why Porsche, BMW, Ford, GM, Honda and Mazda still sell their sports cars with manual transmissions.  Because. there are still plenty of enthusiasts who appreciate the experience and control it gives.

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2 hours ago, ykX said:

Exactly.

At one point Randy Pobst at Motor Trend tested two version of Camaro ZL1 on track: 10 speed automatic and the six speed.  He was slightly faster in the manual car.

How Did A Manual Chevy Camaro ZL1 Beat The 10-Speed Automatic Version? | CarBuzz

Also, while ultimately today's automatic transmissions are faster shifting and more efficient, driving a good car with manual transmission on a fun road is a great pleasure.  That's why Porsche, BMW, Ford, GM, Honda and Mazda still sell their sports cars with manual transmissions.  Because. there are still plenty of enthusiasts who appreciate the experience and control it gives.

Yes, Nothing wrong with having a manual transmission, enjoy the final days as the future I see is one where the public will not want manual. IMHO.

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6 minutes ago, ykX said:

Interesting read, but as they point out, current EVs outsell Manuals and with manuals being less than 1.1% of auto sales and reducing, manuals will be very expensive. Yes, Polestar and Porsche and the Italian garbage badges will probably stick with having a manual to give the dwindling group of Manual drivers their desire at an expensive cost. Long term I still see manual pretty much being dead by the time I am dead too. :P 

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There are many different types of automotive enthusiasts.

BECAUSE one is not enamored with manual transmissions and one does NOT enjoying shifting gears does not lessen that person's credibility of being an automotive enthusiast.

 

The video above...shows how awesome it is to shift one's own gears...on a wallowing muscle car. 

No doubt...its AWESOME!!!

1. In the context of these past posts, the conversation is leading us to believe that changing our own gears makes for faster cornering as we  control the gear we want entering and exiting corners.  While true...

a) in the video...there are no such corners. Making me question why in the world would we want to row our own gears on relatively straight roads?  On public, traffic filled roads...kinda useless shifting our own gears...

b) the Trans Am in question above wallows like a bastard. Its hardly a track car...  Me thinks an automatic would do wonders for it on the track as BOTH hands would be on the steering wheel possibly eliminating the possibility of wallowing off track all the while concentrating on where to actually steer the car instead of fighting the wallowing...   

2. Although it is awesome that we can row our own gears in THAT Trans Am, especially with the awesome aural sounds we get as we change those gears up and down, we actually DO get the SAME awesome sounds with an automatic...

 

3.  Is it more engaging to shift one own's gears?  Quite possible. Yes...Id say even.  But if a car enthusiast is more of a cruising type of guy, driving becomes of a DIFFERENT type of engagement with your surroundings...

Instead of "driving" on the Pacific Coast Highway shifting gears enjoying the drive, one is DRIVING on the Pacific Coast Highway enjoying the scenery...

Instead of racing the engine and hearing the revs while shifting gears on a boulevard, one could be cruising, listening to the engine sounds anyway, but CRUISING down a boulevard enjoying the drive.  

I would be the one to be cruising...and when I need to make a pass on some dipshyte, I just mash the peddle and my incredibly low RPMed, high torqued muscle car could do the rest...and I could STILL enjoy the sounds the engine makes...

Yeah...I do not like shifting my own gears either. But THAT does NOT make me less of a car enthusiast... 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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