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3 hours ago, David said:

I was also surprised by that info, not sure why the maintenance is still so high. Be interesting to learn what they have on the truck that is requiring so much maintenance.

You have to read press releases defensively; all OEM-sourced info is run thru a marketing department before you read it. Every piece is carefully worded to create the bottom line- new potential buyers. Journalism is the same way from a different angle; they'll pump anything new because they want buzz to create readership (potential buyers).

EVs have to attempt to conquer the 97.4% of the market that hasn't chosen their game. Sure; a lot of it is pricing... but there's other, numerous, tangible obstacles. With the upside down fiscal yoke EVs carry from the start, you can bet the marketing is going to pump whatever vague advantage they can get away with. Reminds me of the noise aspect : EVs are being legislated to produce artificial noise up to 18-some MPH, because ALL vehicles above that make the same noise; tire and wind noise. There's no discernible engine noise from a Malibu at 30 MPH. You can barely hear it idling standing right in front of it. Yet the EV press trumpets 'SILENCE!!'

How often are you driving under 18 MPH on a given day?? It's an intangible.

Bottom line IMO; the advantages of EVs over IC are a laboratory best-case scenario that many buyers will never come close to. And that's just the nature of commercial products.

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The hilariously inept Newsom has provided plenty of material with this one.  The meme-makers are really making hay!    Chevy's new California-Compliant transportation alternative!

Hard Pass on "shared mobility".  If I want shared mobility, I will get a bus pass or take a train.

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9 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

In a truck frame of mind...love this just fine as ICE...worth every moment to watch. 

 

 

I watched this episode when it originally aired. Pretty badass Power Wagon!

 

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Right now, fossil fuels, namely gasoline and diesel, are still the easiest, quickest way to fuel up your vehicle. Comparably sized ICE vehicles are still much less expensive up front than a BEV counterpart. Li-ion battery technology has gotten much better and costs continue to come down, but they still need some work. 

EVSE Infrastructure is also still not where it needs to be and it hasn't changed a whole lot from 5 years ago when I was with Blink Network (an EVSE Manf. and Distributor based in Phoenix) back in 2015. It still just doesn't pencil out for most people as a daily driver, here in the U.S. as least. Until you own and live with one like I did you don't know what it means to make the move to an EV. It's a totally different life and you often have to schedule your day around your EV and charging station locations, so there's always going to be range anxiety for a BEV daily driver. It's really a necessity, similar to how a private pilot plots their flight plan for fuel stops at airports along a given route. 

On the other hand, GM's Ultium batteries use a high level of nickel, an obvious expensive precious metal and I'm curious to see if they found a way to quickly charge the batteries with a higher level of nickel content that maybe extends the battery life.

GM also just released "Ultium Drive" their in house EV drive division. It's not surprising why Honda Motor Co. and Nikola Corp. are partnering up with GM for their Ultium product line.  

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2020/09/16/gm-introduces-ultium-drive/5814405002/

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9 hours ago, USA-1 said:

 

On the other hand, GM's Ultium batteries use a high level of nickel, an obvious expensive precious metal and I'm curious to see if they found a way to quickly charge the batteries with a higher level of nickel content that maybe extends the battery life.

GM also just released "Ultium Drive" their in house EV drive division. It's not surprising why Honda Motor Co. and Nikola Corp. are partnering up with GM for their Ultium product line.  

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2020/09/16/gm-introduces-ultium-drive/5814405002/

I do see GM as a leader in developing this tech....hence my previous comment about a BEV Blazer. I think it would be kick  ass!!

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14 hours ago, USA-1 said:

Right now, fossil fuels, namely gasoline and diesel, are still the easiest, quickest way to fuel up your vehicle. Comparably sized ICE vehicles are still much less expensive up front than a BEV counterpart. Li-ion battery technology has gotten much better and costs continue to come down, but they still need some work. 

EVSE Infrastructure is also still not where it needs to be and it hasn't changed a whole lot from 5 years ago when I was with Blink Network (an EVSE Manf. and Distributor based in Phoenix) back in 2015. It still just doesn't pencil out for most people as a daily driver, here in the U.S. as least. Until you own and live with one like I did you don't know what it means to make the move to an EV. It's a totally different life and you often have to schedule your day around your EV and charging station locations, so there's always going to be range anxiety for a BEV daily driver. It's really a necessity, similar to how a private pilot plots their flight plan for fuel stops at airports along a given route. 

On the other hand, GM's Ultium batteries use a high level of nickel, an obvious expensive precious metal and I'm curious to see if they found a way to quickly charge the batteries with a higher level of nickel content that maybe extends the battery life.

GM also just released "Ultium Drive" their in house EV drive division. It's not surprising why Honda Motor Co. and Nikola Corp. are partnering up with GM for their Ultium product line.  

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2020/09/16/gm-introduces-ultium-drive/5814405002/

I agree that the compliance EVs are NOT a daily use for anything auto, but as called a Compliance auto for select states and where one has to plan on charging. 

The charging infrastructure continues to get better daily and will continue to do so faster in those states embracing it compared to those resisting change.

I honestly think 2021 will be the start of major change with a large up tick in EV's as we see multiple options in much larger sized EVs with long range battery packs and the start of solid state batteries showing up also in EVs.

Also as you posted and I posted with the videos from GMs news release earlier in this thread, the Ultium Drive power train family is very solid tech and as the video shows, you can see how they have solutions for FWD, RWD, and AWD. I see a much larger simplification of maintenance with this new power train family.

Biggest question is do they properly market them to sell and train their dealerships as the slow adoption of the Volt / Bolt has been the lack of training and marketing.

Interesting times we live in.

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At the Ground Breaking Ceremony for the All New Ford F-150 EV, Ford released the first of the official images of the new electric F-150. Also additional video of their electric truck doing trailer loaded testing. They also released a image of the new expansion at the Rouge plant.

As stated by the press, end to end lighting is the theme for EV trucks / SUVs it seems as the Hummer also will have this as does the Rivian auto's.

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https://electrek.co/2020/09/17/ford-f150-electric-pickup-testing-footage-impressive-performance/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-electric-ford-f-150-will-be-the-fastest-most-powerful-f-150-ever/ar-BB198YXb?ocid=uxbndlbing

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/heres-what-the-electric-ford-f-150-looks-like

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1 hour ago, David said:

I agree that the compliance EVs are NOT a daily use for anything auto, but as called a Compliance auto for select states and where one has to plan on charging. 

The charging infrastructure continues to get better daily and will continue to do so faster in those states embracing it compared to those resisting change.

I honestly think 2021 will be the start of major change with a large up tick in EV's as we see multiple options in much larger sized EVs with long range battery packs and the start of solid state batteries showing up also in EVs.

Also as you posted and I posted with the videos from GMs news release earlier in this thread, the Ultium Drive power train family is very solid tech and as the video shows, you can see how they have solutions for FWD, RWD, and AWD. I see a much larger simplification of maintenance with this new power train family.

Biggest question is do they properly market them to sell and train their dealerships as the slow adoption of the Volt / Bolt has been the lack of training and marketing.

Interesting times we live in.

GM and other automakers do not market their EV's much at all, maybe that will change. I think GM's marketing dept. is told to push to the masses what moves on the lots even though that seems counter intuitive, no real need to market them as much if they are selling well. That was the biggest reason for the Volt's demise and the ELR as well, a horrible marketing campaign, even though the ELR was also priced too high for it's class. The Voltec powertrain was great and really the best technology for the current "fueling" infrastructure we have.

We shall see what The General comes up with for the marketing campaign of the new Cadillac IQ line of BEV's and what they do with the Silverado/Sierra e trucks in the coming months or years. They have more skin in the game now, so it should be a much different show.

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Lucid Air has beat Tesla Plaid record set last year at Laguna Seca race track.

Tesla using their yet to be released Plaid power train set a Laguna record of 1:36.55

Lucid set the new course record at Laguna in 1:33.00

I wonder if GM will go after this record with their Ultium Power Train family?

https://electrek.co/2020/09/18/lucid-beats-tesla-model-s-plaid-prototype-on-racetrack-with-its-own-tri-motor-air-test-vehicle/

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Labor Party in the UK wants to change the ban on new ICE auto sales from the current 2025 to 2030. This will require that the Labor party get the conservative party to join in making this change which would also help the UK meet their Paris accord for reduction in air pollution.

Originally the Conservative party had passed banning ICE auto's starting in 2040, but due to changes in ICE production in the country, companies like Honda moving production to the US as well as other auto company changes, the Conservatives changed this to 2035 to match when certain auto companies will leave the UK.

A growing base of Businesses and city councils are calling for a more ambitious phase-out policy of stopping all Petrol, Diesel, Hybrid and Van sales within the UK.

The UK has avoided brown out this crazy year with work from home and pandemic lock downs due to the Tesla battery stations they have been installing across the country. Microsoft has moved their data center to below the ocean to reduce power needs for cooling, etc.

The move to natural sounds, cleaner air and a better over all life style seems to be driving this change in the UK.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

https://electrek.co/2020/09/18/egeb-uk-ice-cars-2030-microsoft-data-center/#more-147706

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Cadillac has their current Franchise agreement expiring in November. GM worked with the Franchise Dealer Council in writing up the new agreement.

This new agreement has EV's set out as a sub section of the Cadillac dealership and will require a $200,000 investment in tools for the service center, updated displays, sales training, and charging stations plus more. The dealers will have to follow the franchise agreement to the T if they want to sell the new Cadillac EV line of Auto's.

Cadillac has also made it clear that if you want to stay a Cadillac Dealer, you will have to make this investment otherwise GM and the dealership will part ways this November.

The $200,000 is a minimum and all the upgrades must be done by the end of the second quarter of 2021.

This will support Cadillac as it leads the company in becoming the first division to be pure electric with their first auto's being the Lyriq SUV and the Celestig hand-built flagship sedan.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-ev-dealers-investment/

https://www.autonews.com/dealers/cadillac-requiring-dealers-make-200000-upgrades-evs?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

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Kia anounced this week their business plan to become a leading global EV brand. Kia is working to install supporting Fast Charging systems across the world. They have dedicated to install 2,400 chargers in Europe and 500 in North America in their dealer network. They are also working with various EV charging networks and gas stations to install infrastructure to support rapid fast charging.

Quote:

  • Kia reveals first stage of future product plans – seven new dedicated BEVs to launch by 2027 across several vehicle segments
  • Brand’s first dedicated BEV, codenamed CV, to launch in 2021 and reveal Kia’s new design direction
  • BEVs to account for 25% of Kia global vehicle sales by 2029
  • Kia to work with worldwide network to expand EV charging infrastructures
  • Full BEV lineup will establish Kia’s position as a leading EV brand in the market

https://www.kiamedia.com/us/en/media/pressreleases/16703/kia-motors-accelerates-business-transformation-to-become-a-leading-ev-brand

16705_Kia_Motors_accelerates_business_transformation_to_become_a_leading_EV.jpg

 

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So they're forcing dealers, who've so far stuck with them (amazingly enough) to waste $200k?  I can see Cadillac losing a crapload more dealers with GM's extortion.  Ruinous!

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29 minutes ago, balthazar said:

More feel-good marketing spin. EVERY brand out there has -or will in the next 11 minutes- claim the very same thing.

Cynical, but true..

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22 hours ago, balthazar said:

More feel-good marketing spin. EVERY brand out there has -or will in the next 11 minutes- claim the very same thing.

Whatever happened with the self driving cars everyone promised?

And as for the Canoo....maybe Blu can take his Canoo When he goes with his Canoe to go hiking...but I am sure it would haul a kayak also. 

Obligatory ICE in the Electric thread...

 

 

Edited by A Horse With No Name
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38 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

Whatever happened with the self driving cars everyone promised?

 

2020 happened.  Check back in 10 years.

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I don't anticipate it will happen, but what if GM can harness their old design magic in these Unobtainium EV? (or whatever they're called).

 

The Cadillac station wagon they've previewed is sort of meh in the video.

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2 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

I don't anticipate it will happen, but what if GM can harness their old design magic in these Unobtainium EV? (or whatever they're called). 

Alas, I think that era is long past...GM seems more content to coast on mediocrity and genericism in design these days.  

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51 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Alas, I think that era is long past...GM seems more content to coast on mediocrity and genericism in design these days.  

Agree entirely. Look at how KIA and Hyundai are leading in SUV's. The only thing that might save north American truck production is if Rivian or Tesla can build EV';s. Otherwise, sadly, I think eventually someone else will figure out how to capture even that market from the domestics. 

They are sort of Pigs, but even the Tundra is having a cult following. 

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3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Alas, I think that era is long past...GM seems more content to coast on mediocrity and genericism in design these days.  

Hopefully the Hummer by GMC can change that by starting a stylistic trend away from coasting mediocrity of blah design. 

Chevrolet trucks is a perfect example of an ugly brick design that just screams HELL NO!

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SIlverado, Corvette, CT5, Escalade, Malibu, upcoming Hummer, Camaro, still the Enclave.... plenty of striking design out of GM these days relative to the industry. Certainly not 'mediocre' compared to the competition. What; Nissan? Toyoter? BMW?

I think not.

Compare styling- who's mediocre?

Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 7.06.08 PM.png

Edited by balthazar
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The industry has GREATLY homogenized stylistically, more now than in the last 70 years.

And as the vast majority of amenities spreads down thru the cheapest lines of vehicles, the reason for so many different vehicles (platforms / sizes) becomes more & more irrelevant. The industry doesn't need Car B to 'fill the space' between car A and Car C, it needs to INCREASE the physical gaps; make Car A and Car D.

Having 6 CUVs spaced 10 inches apart with slightly rearranged visual clues costs BILLIONS... when where the industry should be going is more like 3 CUVs that are distinctly different. THis better supports significant pricing tiers, and finally admits no one NEEDS a CUV that's 8 inches shorter than the one they're staring at on the lot right now.

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13 hours ago, balthazar said:

SIlverado, Corvette, CT5, Escalade, Malibu, upcoming Hummer, Camaro, still the Enclave.... plenty of striking design out of GM these days relative to the industry. Certainly not 'mediocre' compared to the competition. What; Nissan? Toyoter? BMW?

I think not.

Compare styling- who's mediocre?

Screen Shot 2020-09-20 at 7.06.08 PM.png

Both?

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18 hours ago, David said:

Hopefully the Hummer by GMC can change that by starting a stylistic trend away from coasting mediocrity of blah design. 

Chevrolet trucks is a perfect example of an ugly brick design that just screams HELL NO!

This on the other hand is pure sex on wheels. Love GMC. 

 

5.3 L V8

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28 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Let's see...the Silverado is hideous, the Corvette styling is derivative of every other mid engine sports car of the last 20 years with a few really odd details, the CT5 had bad C-pillar trim that ruins the profile, the new Escalade is dulled down up front and looks like an enlarged XT6, the Malibu is so bland it could get lost in an empty parking lot, the Camaro with it's chop top needs a periscope to see out, etc...lots of forgettable appliances otherwise...not much really stands out....it's.hardly GM's golden age of styling. 

There is not a single GM product right now I would personally choose over the competition. New Vette is well recieved, but would rather personally have a Shelby Mustang. I don't trust cylinder de activation tech in the Dodge of GM V8's,  lots of reasons I wouldn't buy any of them. 

Would buy a TRD V6 Camry over the wimpy 1.5L Malibu so fast it would make your head spin. 


Actually Blazer and Colorado would be where I would most like to put my money were I to buy GM.

Would kind of love to rock a ZR2 Colorado. But would have to talk myself out of a Gladiator Rubicon first. 

I do think GM will have good battery EV tech. 

But doing this with any midsize truck....Glaidator, Ranger, Colroado, Tacoma...would be Epic. Leaving out ridgeline because its AWD system is more oriented to on road use. 

 

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I'm with @A Horse With No Name, the only things at GM I really like are the Sierra Denali and the Escalade.  The rest of Cadillac's lineup is lost on me now that the CT6 is dead. I think the new Suburban/Tahoe/Yukons are fuuuu-gly.  The GMC crossovers are terrible. I suppose I could do an Enclave if I had to, but there are other options from other manufacturers I'd pick first. 

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The above posts kinda splits the point. Under the topic of ‘mediocre design’, there are a bunch of vehicles I like that I still wouldn’t buy; I need/want a large truck: just because I wouldn’t buy a Corvette doesn’t mean I can’t find it highly appealing stylistically. Conversely, one can buy something they don’t find particularly striking visually. 
And what if I’m in love with 6 or 8 different vehicles?
 

Buying or not buying is secondary to the discussion. I LOVE the Sierra Denali’s looks, but I’m not buying one.
 

Once everything is mediocre, nothing is.

Edited by balthazar
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On 9/20/2020 at 9:59 AM, A Horse With No Name said:

Agree entirely. Look at how KIA and Hyundai are leading in SUV's. The only thing that might save north American truck production is if Rivian or Tesla can build EV';s. Otherwise, sadly, I think eventually someone else will figure out how to capture even that market from the domestics. 

They are sort of Pigs, but even the Tundra is having a cult following. 

Did you forget about the Electric F-150?

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-electric-everything-we-know/

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I do find it bothersome that Ford has continually slipped on when they will have their electric F-150 out in production. Now according to Detroit Press, production is to begin in mid 2022 as a 2023 model?

This would put them behind Rivian, Tesla, GM and who knows who else.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/09/17/ford-invests-rouge-electric-f-150-uaw/5819541002/

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm with @A Horse With No Name, the only things at GM I really like are the Sierra Denali and the Escalade.  The rest of Cadillac's lineup is lost on me now that the CT6 is dead. I think the new Suburban/Tahoe/Yukons are fuuuu-gly.  The GMC crossovers are terrible. I suppose I could do an Enclave if I had to, but there are other options from other manufacturers I'd pick first. 

Not my cupoftea....but my sister just Bought an Escalade. It pulls off the big square body look well, and is a great vehicle. Happy for her...but what she spent would buy a Gladiator Rubicon or a Ford Raptor. 

11 minutes ago, David said:

I do find it bothersome that Ford has continually slipped on when they will have their electric F-150 out in production. Now according to Detroit Press, production is to begin in mid 2022 as a 2023 model?

This would put them behind Rivian, Tesla, GM and who knows who else.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/09/17/ford-invests-rouge-electric-f-150-uaw/5819541002/

They will get it right, and sell plenty. Being the First to market isn't always the best. Google Dehaviland Comet....British had an advantage in Jet passenger air travel....until initial design flaws were revealed. Beoing took the lead and never looked back....until the current fiascos with the 737 MAX. 

Rivan and Tesla suing each other, that won't end well at all for either of them. 

23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

No. I think it will be a good product. It's just that fullsize trucks are so lucrative that I think the market will become even more competitive and see new players in the segment eventually. 

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The above posts kinda splits the point. Under the topic of ‘mediocre design’, there are a bunch of vehicles I like that I still wouldn’t buy; I need/want a large truck: just because I wouldn’t buy a Corvette doesn’t mean I can’t find it highly appealing stylistically. Conversely, one can buy something they don’t find particularly striking visually. 
And what if I’m in love with 6 or 8 different vehicles?
 

Buying or not buying is secondary to the discussion. I LOVE the Sierra Denali’s looks, but I’m not buying one.
 

Once everything is mediocre, nothing is.

I am saying from a design standpoint, I don't really see them as being above the curve in any real tangible way. I damn sure wouldn't buy a Telluride but a hell of a lot of consumers would take it (and rightfully so) over anything in its segment from Ford, GM, or even Toyota. 

Edited by A Horse With No Name
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1 hour ago, David said:

I do find it bothersome that Ford has continually slipped on when they will have their electric F-150 out in production. Now according to Detroit Press, production is to begin in mid 2022 as a 2023 model?

This would put them behind Rivian, Tesla, GM and who knows who else.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/09/17/ford-invests-rouge-electric-f-150-uaw/5819541002/

"late 2022" for the cybertruck is the same exact quarter as the F150.

Rivian is the only one to have an edge in getting things out early and it sounds like it'll be roughly 18 months before Tesla or Ford have theirs in production. 

GM? What EV truck do they have? I hope you're not comparing trucks to the Hummer SUV..? 

If that's the case, GM is behind all of them as Ford already has the MachE, obviously Tesla has the X and Y already out, and Rivian's SUV seems to be on the heels of their truck. 

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3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"late 2022" for the cybertruck is the same exact quarter as the F150.

Rivian is the only one to have an edge in getting things out early and it sounds like it'll be roughly 18 months before Tesla or Ford have theirs in production. 

GM? What EV truck do they have? I hope you're not comparing trucks to the Hummer SUV..? 

If that's the case, GM is behind all of them as Ford already has the MachE, obviously Tesla has the X and Y already out, and Rivian's SUV seems to be on the heels of their truck. 

Cybertruck and electric F150 will both be hits for the right market IMHO. Rivian seems to have no problem getting deposits. 

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yeah, but design doesn’t have to be ‘ahead of the curve’ to NOT be mediocre... unless you think the median industry desogn level is mediocre.

I think GM is going to ahve a hard time winning new buyers with current designs. Nothing they build is currently something I want to own either....but Kia and Hyundai seem to be doing a damn fine job brining out products that appeal to mainstream Americans.  They are both a hell of a lot more modern than Toyota or Honda. Nissan is way....way....exceedingtly and excessively...behind the curve in so many ways. 

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1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

"late 2022" for the cybertruck is the same exact quarter as the F150.

Rivian is the only one to have an edge in getting things out early and it sounds like it'll be roughly 18 months before Tesla or Ford have theirs in production. 

GM? What EV truck do they have? I hope you're not comparing trucks to the Hummer SUV..? 

If that's the case, GM is behind all of them as Ford already has the MachE, obviously Tesla has the X and Y already out, and Rivian's SUV seems to be on the heels of their truck. 

Hummer by GMC Truck reveal is Oct 20th 2020 with production set to begin first half 2021 on sale summer 2021. That is still way ahead of Ford now. As Ford had originally stated Summer 2021 on sale and it slipped to production start late 2021 and now late 2022. Like Tesla, they seemed to have slipped big time. I wonder if this is due to ramping up battery production which was also an issue with Tesla.

GM / LG battery production will help them deliver far more reliably I think than others.

Will have to see as I do expect Rivian to deliver their truck first, then GM and then is a toss up between Ford and Tesla.

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GMC is not bad looking, Hyundai Tuscon I think is solid, Chevrolet just so blah. I think the Hybrid of the Tuscon is a winner. Hoping it will beat the Toyota Rav4 Hybrid, but Toyota does lead in this segment.

2021 GMC Terrain CUV

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2022/2021 Tuscon Hybrid / ICE

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2021 Chevrolet Equinox

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37 minutes ago, David said:

Hummer by GMC Truck reveal is Oct 20th 2020 with production set to begin first half 2021 on sale summer 2021. That is still way ahead of Ford now. As Ford had originally stated Summer 2021 on sale and it slipped to production start late 2021 and now late 2022. Like Tesla, they seemed to have slipped big time. I wonder if this is due to ramping up battery production which was also an issue with Tesla.

GM / LG battery production will help them deliver far more reliably I think than others.

Will have to see as I do expect Rivian to deliver their truck first, then GM and then is a toss up between Ford and Tesla.

I guess I completely forgot about the profile reveal and that there is a bed to it. 

Yeah, it sounds roughly 14-18 months ahead of Ford's.

I don't know about you but I have a feeling the Hummer will be a pretty decent step up in pricing than the F150, but that's just guessing. 

I don't believe Ford ever said the all electric would be on sale Summer 2021. That's probably their hybrid you're thinking of. 

"All a Ford spokesperson would tell Car and Driver is that the all-electric F-150 will arrive "in a few years" and that we will have to keep waiting for an announcement about specific timing."

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28947992/electric-ford-f-150-2021-planned/ 

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1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I guess I completely forgot about the profile reveal and that there is a bed to it. 

Yeah, it sounds roughly 14-18 months ahead of Ford's.

I don't know about you but I have a feeling the Hummer will be a pretty decent step up in pricing than the F150, but that's just guessing. 

I don't believe Ford ever said the all electric would be on sale Summer 2021. That's probably their hybrid you're thinking of. 

"All a Ford spokesperson would tell Car and Driver is that the all-electric F-150 will arrive "in a few years" and that we will have to keep waiting for an announcement about specific timing."

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28947992/electric-ford-f-150-2021-planned/ 

I also wonder how fast GM will roll out the Chevrolet Silverado EV truck since it will be produced in the same assembly line.

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In due time.  There's a whole lotta brainwashing ahead for the general public to give a rat's ass about EV.  Manufacturers would be foolish to intro an EV truck in the next twenty-five years or so.  After that, MAYBE.

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5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

In due time.  There's a whole lotta brainwashing ahead for the general public to give a rat's ass about EV.  Manufacturers would be foolish to intro an EV truck in the next twenty-five years or so.  After that, MAYBE.

Exactly why I see Tesla everywhere around here.

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

In due time.  There's a whole lotta brainwashing ahead for the general public to give a rat's ass about EV.  Manufacturers would be foolish to intro an EV truck in the next twenty-five years or so.  After that, MAYBE.

Exactly why I see Tesla everywhere around here.

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6 hours ago, balthazar said:

The above posts kinda splits the point. Under the topic of ‘mediocre design’, there are a bunch of vehicles I like that I still wouldn’t buy; I need/want a large truck: just because I wouldn’t buy a Corvette doesn’t mean I can’t find it highly appealing stylistically. Conversely, one can buy something they don’t find particularly striking visually. 
And what if I’m in love with 6 or 8 different vehicles?
 

Buying or not buying is secondary to the discussion. I LOVE the Sierra Denali’s looks, but I’m not buying one.
 

Once everything is mediocre, nothing is.

My comments like above should always be prefaced with the "If life allowed".  I'm not buying a Denali because I can't afford one.  I'm not buying a CT6 because it high centers on my driveway.  A large three-row could conceivably be in my future, but I can name a few I would buy before the Enclave. I liked the ELR as a potential commuter for Albert, but without AWD and with having the haul his parents, it's a no-go. 

What I was saying was those vehicles are the only GMs on the list that would even get the attention from me to buy if I was in the position to do so. 

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I like the CT6 and CTS...I could see buying a used one...like the interior and exterior design of both.  I can appreciate the styling of the Yukon Denali but I have don't need a full size SUV.   They don't have any midsize 2 row SUVs I'd consider over a JGC.    The Camaro sounds great as far as the hardware, but the lack of outward visibility, cramped interior, and some styling details make it unappealing to me compared to the Challenger or Mustang.   I can appreciate the Corvette for it's performance, like some of the styling aspects, but the rear end is a real turn off in person and in pictures.  I'd like to drive one, though. 

The Colorado and Canyon seem like nice trucks, decent styling, but I'm not a truck guy.

As far as a new vehicle, I can't think of anything current from GM I'd seriously consider in my price range, maybe a couple as CPOs.  

Edited by Robert Hall
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Drew ::  I understand what you're saying, but the question wasn't 'what vehicles can't navigate your driveway?'; it was addressing a claim that GM 'needs a stylistic trend away from coasting mediocrity of blah design'.

I personally don't see GM design today being anything less than on par with the competition, or in some cases exceeding it.

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Manufacturers would be foolish to intro an EV truck in the next twenty-five years or so.  After that, MAYBE.

On the point of potential sales in the short run, I agree.
However, in that the industry is moving in that direction, AS LONG AS there are IC trucks alongside an EV trim, I'm fine with that. With global market share at 2.6%, it's not likely IC is going anywhere in our lifetime. EV sales will piddle along in the short run- those that want one can pony up & hopefully be happy. The long run is anyone's guess.

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4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ I understand what you're saying, but the question wasn't 'what vehicles can't navigate your driveway?'; it was addressing a claim that GM 'needs a stylistic trend away from coasting mediocrity of blah design'.

I personally don't see GM design today being anything less than on par with the competition, or in some cases exceeding it.

Well, you already know my opinion on the CT6... I'd have one in an instant if I could.  I still think it is one of the most handsome designs to come out of GM in a generation.  My point was aside from those... the Denali, the Escalade, the CT6, possibly Enclave.... there is nothing at GM that lights my fire.  They're either mediocre (the rest of the Cadillac/Buick lineup) or they're UGLY (half the Silverado lineup, all of the Chevy/GMC full-size SUVs).  I had a Terrain Denali 2.0T last year as a tester and it's a perfectly competent vehicle, but the outside is just so homely....  I would pick the Pilot, Cherokee, or CX5 over it based on looks alone. The Acadia looks like someone grafted a Sierra front clip onto the earlier version of the crossover and it just doesn't work.   Is there a more "bar of soap" crossover out there than the Equinox?  Three way tie with the new Escape and the Model-Y for that title?  The Blazer isn't too bad from the front, but they used all of the styling budget up there and had none left for the rear.  The Corvette is cool I guess, but so far out of my wheelhouse as to not register as a real car. 

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Every year in recent years I've tried to sit in and check out a variety of new vehicles at the annual local dealer auto show, and the #1 thing I find as a turn off about many new GM vehicles (under $50k or so) are the damn despair gray or charcoal/black GM interiors...so dour and bland, bland, bland.  It's better than the Tupperware/Fisher Price shit they had in the 90s-00s, but still nothing special in the design or materials, IMO.  

Of course, not to knock on GM only, but pretty much everything 'cheap' (< $50k)  these days has a gray or charcoal plastic interior.  Some execute the plastics better than others, though.   

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27 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Every year in recent years I've tried to sit in and check out a variety of new vehicles at the annual local dealer auto show, and the #1 thing I find as a turn off about many new GM vehicles are the damn despair gray or charcoal/black GM interiors...so dour and bland, bland, bland.  It's better than the Tupperware/Fisher Price shit they had in the 90s-00s, but still nothing special in the design or materials, IMO.  

Yeah...I find myself thinking about what I will replace the Aveo with. If I don't get a Wrangler or a Bronco I have thought hard about other midsize SUVs. CX5 is too feminine for my tastes... that's from a guy who has owned a Cooper S...new Beetle...two Miatas...but the interior is far superior to anything GM has in the midsize class. Mazda 6 way outclasses the Malibu.

I am concerned that the domestic carmakers will become truck and big SUV only. And that market is so lucrative others will find a way in...chicken tax or no chicken tax.

And in the midsize SUV segment Toyota has such a lead in Hybrid with the RAV4. I find the interior of the RAV 4 to be distasteful but the resale is world's better than any midsize GM vehicle.

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14 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

 

I am concerned that the domestic carmakers will become truck and big SUV only. And that market is so lucrative others will find a way in...chicken tax or no chicken tax.

 

With few exceptions, the domestics are already truck and CUV/SUV only, sadly.    I like SUVs, but very few of them..no interest in the generic CUVs that dominate the market.  And I've never needed or wanted a truck.  Oh well... it was good while it lasted, don't know what you have until it's gone...  

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32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Sounds like you’re merely particular. You’re in a series of SUVs and the market is moving steadily to SUVs. You’re actually in the catbird seat.

True.  I’ve been driving SUVs for 26 years.  But I do like cars also.  

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Tomorrow is Tesla Shareholder meeting followed by their Battery Day. New Announcements are expected of battery cell's that will last triple the life cycle of current cells today plus big energy density improvements. New batteries are expected to be used in the Semi's, Truck and their Roadster 2.0.

Tesla 3 has changed battery over to lithium iron phosphate (LFP) cells  these cells are cheaper to produce, longer life and stop using rare earth elements like cobalt. 

https://www.tesla.com/2020shareholdermeeting

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Electrify America is going strong in building out their DC fast charging network across the US. They have now created a new sub division Electrify Home.  80% of charging is done at homes for those that own ev's. One of the biggest challenges for home owners is finding an electrician who will install a Level 2 or 220V home charger.

Electrify Home https://www.electrifyhome.com/ now aims to reduce this confusion and simplify adding home charging. As simple as choosing your charger, choose the area you live in and have them tell you who can install the product. 24/7 support for their chargers and 3yr parts n labor warranty. 

Very simple web site that helps you easily add EV charging to your home.

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^ $2200 installed. My confusion on why it costs so much has SKYROCKETED.
 

Quote

One of the biggest challenges for home owners is finding an electrician who will install a Level 2 or 220V home charger.

Why is that in any way a challenge? Tons of electricians around, all capable of doing 220V work.

Yet more marketing spin trying to drum up business for a middleman where it's questionably necessary. Seems to be another like that stupid Home Advisor pyramid scheme.

Edited by balthazar
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9 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ $2200 installed. My confusion on why it costs so much has SKYROCKETED.
 

Why is that in any way a challenge? Tons of electricians around, all capable of doing 220V work.

Yet more marketing spin trying to drum up business for a middleman where it's questionably necessary. Seems to be another like that stupid Home Advisor pyramid scheme.

Your making an ASSUMPTION that everyone knows how to talk to and hire an electrician. Far more people are clueless and just want a 220V charger in their home to plug their EV into. As such having a site where folks can go and put their info in, learn that they need an electrical permit, etc. to insure proper installation of said home charger is important.

Most humans do not have common sense and as such need the guidance and will pay for it.

Unlike you my friend and many others here, we can find and buy our own charger online and then hire a local electrician to come and install it where we want if the home is old and not already prewired for garage charging.

My sister and her partner just purchased a new house that comes prewired for a 220V charger so all they have to do is buy one with the 30A twist lock connection and plug it in, mount on the wall and they are ready to charge. Far simpler than this need for installation.

Big differences.

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1 hour ago, David said:

Your making an ASSUMPTION that everyone knows how to talk to and hire an electrician. Far more people are clueless and just want a 220V charger in their home to plug their EV into.

What are you talking about?
Who can't talk to an electrician?
Home owners don't have a shred of responsibility to tell an electrician what to do; you call one, tell them you need a car charger, and they will tell you you need a permit, you have these chargers to choose from, etc. That's literally why you hire a professional.

"Hello. Do you install car chargers in residential homes? Yes? Can you come out to my home and give me an estimate?"

Literally done (other than writing the check).
 

This scenario is like saying you need an intermediary service because 'not everyone knows how to talk to / hire a mechanic'.  Same exact thing.

Edited by balthazar
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17 hours ago, David said:

I also wonder how fast GM will roll out the Chevrolet Silverado EV truck since it will be produced in the same assembly line.

My guess would probably be 2 model years after the Hummer, maybe like 18 months or so. So, maybe the same year or the following year as the F150. 

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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

What are you talking about?
Who can't talk to an electrician?
Home owners don't have a shred of responsibility to tell an electrician what to do; you call one, tell them you need a car charger, and they will tell you you need a permit, you have these chargers to choose from, etc. That's literally why you hire a professional.

"Hello. Do you install car chargers in residential homes? Yes? Can you come out to my home and give me an estimate?"

Literally done (other than writing the check).
 

This scenario is like saying you need an intermediary service because 'not everyone knows how to talk to / hire a mechanic'.  Same exact thing.

I truly wish what you posted is true about people. Sadly to many have proven that Common Sense is NOT SO COMMON.

I have heard plenty of folks across the world that are clueless about chargers and what they need to do. I have sadly heard plenty of unionized electricians that have no clue about EV's home chargers and do not want to learn and just say talk to someone else.

In a perfect world, what you say would be common for everyone. Sadly, you and everyone else here on the site are far more knowledgeable about things like this than most people.

Sadly, Tesla Makes Bank as so many of their buyers just want Tesla to take care of the home charger for them for those that live in a home, townhouse or condo where they can add such a device.

Once training gets better, I believe that GM, VW and everyone else will offer or point the buyers to Electrify Home to get this done. Even Rivian has stated that they will have clear info on home charging for those that want it there.

Just how I have seen humans who want minimal maintenance and see the auto, EV's/ICE as just an appliance to use.

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17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If you are incapable of typing something into google, or calling an electrician via ‘the yellow pages’, not to worry; you are already incapable of learning the existence of or buying an electric car.
 

It’s a self-policing scenario.

Once could say the same thing about ICE. Amazing how many luxury auto's are bought due to the badge and yet the owners are idiots about maintaining it let along fueling it. 

One reason that AAA seems to have such a high call for fuel on the side of the road.

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20 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What's the rate of AAA calls for fuel?

While AAA does not break that out, their last detailed report from 2016 way before EVs started to be in the news heavily is that between Memorial Day and Labor Day in the US alone, they rescued 32 million drivers along the road for everything from running out of Fuel, flat tire, dead battery, broken belts, etc.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/roadside-assistance/

To Quote:

 roadside assistance data include:

  • Battery failures, flat tires and keys locked inside the vehicle remain the top roadside assistance requests.
  • Vehicles fewer than five years old have a higher proportion of tire, key and fuel-related issues than older vehicles. Due in part to complex, electronic vehicle designs, one-in-five service calls for a newer vehicle required a tow to a repair facility.
  • Vehicles between 6 and 10 years old have the highest proportion of battery-related issues, as most batteries have a three- to five-year life.
  • Roadside assistance calls peak in the summer (8.3 million) followed by winter (8.1 million), fall (7.8 million) and spring (7.7 million).
  • Drivers are most likely to request roadside assistance on Mondays and least likely to request assistance on Sundays.
  • Drivers in the West experienced the most breakdowns, followed by the South, the Northeast and the Midwest.
  • Despite advances in key technology, AAA came to the rescue of more than four million drivers locked out of their vehicles.

“Drivers today have increasingly-connected lifestyles, and want reliable, flexible service options when trouble strikes,” continued Ruud. “AAA has responded with flexible roadside assistance offerings nationwide including app-based service requests and the ability to track assigned service vehicles in real time on a smartphone.”

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But you’ve perfectly illustrated my point here; where is the ‘Gasify America’ service that help keep the 275,000,000 IC vehicles maintained? Isn’t that very company the reason all IC vehicles don’t die and are abandoned after they go 3 or 4 times the oil change recommendation and grind to a halt?

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I see that last time AAA dug into their data and published it was 2014.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/10/roadside-breakdowns-preventable-with-proper-maintenance-finds-aaa/

To Quote:

“While problems with batteries, tires and keys are the most common reasons that members call AAA for help, there are more than 12 million calls each year related to engine trouble, fuel issues and other mechanical mishaps,” warned Nielsen. “AAA will always be there to save the day, but this study reveals drivers can save time and money by investing in routine maintenance.”

Other key findings from 2014 roadside assistance data include:

  • AAA towed more than two million vehicles for engine-related issues and an additional 600,000 vehicles for transmission failure.
  • More than 235,000 vehicles were towed due to brake system failures.
  • While most modern vehicles are equipped with low-fuel lights, AAA provided gasoline fuel delivery to more than half a million vehicles in 2014.
  • Due to members incorrectly fueling their gasoline-powered vehicle with diesel fuel, or vice-versa, AAA towed more than 13,000 vehicles to repair facilities.

“While today’s vehicle technology incorporates maintenance reminders and dashboard alerts designed to prevent roadside trouble, drivers still must take action,” cautioned Josh VanWynsberghe, AAA’s automotive technical engineer. “Finding a mechanic you trust and allowing that shop to perform all of your vehicle’s maintenance will result in improved reliability, higher resale values and increased safety.”

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

If you are incapable of typing something into google, or calling an electrician via ‘the yellow pages’, not to worry; you are already incapable of learning the existence of or buying an electric car.
 

It’s a self-policing scenario.

 

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:


But you’ve perfectly illustrated my point here; where is the ‘Gasify America’ service that help keep the 275,000,000 IC vehicles maintained? Isn’t that very company the reason all IC vehicles don’t die and are abandoned after they go 3 or 4 times the oil change recommendation and grind to a halt?

You answered yourself earlier. There is enough evidence that ICE owners are just as incapable as EV owners in taking care of their auto's. 

Regardless of ICE or EV, many humans ignore all the details and play dumb when it comes to taking care of their auto. This is the same approach they take when it comes to new tech and not reading the owners guide. As such, there is a middle man need for having home Level 1 & 2 Chargers installed.

You have people who hire you to do various projects as they do not want to learn or do the work themselves. Same thing when it comes to ICE or EV maintenance or tools such as a home charger system installed.

Humans are lazy in many ways.

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You sidestepped hiring a contractor to maintaining a vehicle. Not remotely the same scenario.

7 minutes ago, David said:

Same thing when it comes to ICE or EV maintenance or tools such as a home charger system installed.

I thought your position was that people are incapable of hiring an electrician?

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14 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ $2200 installed. My confusion on why it costs so much has SKYROCKETED.
 

Why is that in any way a challenge? Tons of electricians around, all capable of doing 220V work.

Yet more marketing spin trying to drum up business for a middleman where it's questionably necessary. Seems to be another like that stupid Home Advisor pyramid scheme.

I'm actually going to get a quote from them and a competing installer.  I'll let you know. 

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8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You sidestepped hiring a contractor to maintaining a vehicle. Not remotely the same scenario.

I thought your position was that people are incapable of hiring an electrician?

Many people are incapable of hiring an electrician as they do not want to learn what to ask, who to reach out too. This is why they go to a home depot and pay them to hire a 3rd party to come out and do an install of what ever they want done.

My neighbor is well educated computer engineer and his wife is a dentist. They have no interest in learning about things even their auto's, they go to the dealership or they go to home depot and tell them what they want and pay through the nose to have stuff done.

I see this all the time especially with H-1 Visa employees who come here and buy a house, auto, etc. and just pay for everything as they only do their career. 

We have plenty of people that have no interest in learning how to do things such as you and I enjoy doing be it a hobby or a job.

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Many people are incapable of hiring an electrician as they do not want to learn what to ask, who to reach out too.


I told you what you ask :: 'Do you install chargers for my electric car at my house?' There's nothing else to ask.
And I told you who you reach out to :: an electrician.

You are literally stating that someone who is 'tech-savy' enough to buy an electric vehicle is incapable of opening google.

And you don't need to know how to do things- including electrical work- you only need to be able to open google and make a phone call. Who owns a home & and electric car and canNOT make a phone call?

Where is the service that helps people get their car repaired? Oh yeah- those are 'mechanics'. How do people find them? They open google and make a phone call.

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