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Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

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35 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

I am sure they loose a little charge, the car even though when it is off still has certain functions on (security cameras few other things).  Otherwise, I think Lithium batteries have pretty good charge hold period. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, ykX said:

I am sure they loose a little charge, the car even though when it is off still has certain functions on (security cameras few other things).  Otherwise, I think Lithium batteries have pretty good charge hold period. 

Do EVs have a normal car battery for non-propulsion functions (security camera, radio, power locks, etc?).  Seems like the accessories would be separate from the EV motor and its batteries...

Edited by Robert Hall

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1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Love the way the new doors on the Mach e open. Round buttons are embedded in the B and C pillars to open the doors. Push the Disk and the door pops open 1.5 inches.

Lincoln had handle-less doors with push-buttons in the '40s. Iconic, they are reproduced and are popular on customized vehicles today.

Screen Shot 2020-03-31 at 1.42.16 PM.png

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57 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Something about the last post triggered a thought...do batteries in EVs retain their charge for a sufficient period? i.e. if you charge up a Tesla or other EV to 90% or whatever the recommended maximum is, then leave it parked for a week, two weeks, a month, does it lose range and charge? 

Robert, due to technology with battery conditioning, depending on where one lives, an EV can sit for a month and only loose 1 to 2% of charge unless it is very cold or very hot and the management system to keep an optimized temp kicks on and then at most 10% of charge. Both Chevrolet and Tesla have sections on their sites about battery conditioning and battery life. No different than over time, GAS will evaporate a small amount out of your tank, batteries will loose charge. The better the design of the electronics, the longer the battery pack will hold a charge.

This is one area where I am interested to see how well the engineering is as my Escalade ESV Platinum, if it sits for a month, the battery will be dead. Cadillac has like every other luxury make a wide variety of devices that need a trickle charge to keep everything saved and ready for use. GM supposedly on their new High flow electrical system took this into account and the 2021 Escalade's are NOT supposed to have the electrical drain. Ford also has stated that they have built into the Ford Mach e capacitor holding capacity to keep the auto electronics stable for up to a month with no connected charging. As such, the trickle drain on traditional 12V batteries in auto's that do not get driven much should be minimal for those with updated modern electrical systems and especially in EVs.

Hope this helps answer your question.

18 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Do EVs have a normal car battery for non-propulsion functions (security camera, radio, power locks, etc?).  Seems like the accessories would be separate from the EV motor and its batteries...

No, The electronics in both the Bolt and Tesla models have large capacitors to store power to keep settings and power up quickly, etc. All power comes from the main single battery pack.

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3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

This is one area where I am interested to see how well the engineering is as my Escalade ESV Platinum, if it sits for a month, the battery will be dead. Cadillac has like every other luxury make a wide variety of devices that need a trickle charge to keep everything saved and ready for use.

I've noticed that with both of the older Cadillacs I've been around..the '00 DTS and '06 STS...I have to jump the STS if it sits too long (I start it every two weeks). 

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14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Lincoln had handle-less doors with push-buttons in the '40s. Iconic, they are reproduced and are popular on customized vehicles today.

Screen Shot 2020-03-31 at 1.42.16 PM.png

There is a new Business for you, build quality unique replacement push button covers for the Mach e and what appears to be push button access on the up coming Cadillac. Very cool I think to go back to this type of access.

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13 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Robert, due to technology with battery conditioning, depending on where one lives, an EV can sit for a month and only loose 1 to 2% of charg

It is not really true, many owners of Tesla report "phantom" or "vampire" drain.  It seems parked Teslas loose about 30% of the charge in a month

There is a lot of this discussed if you google the terms

16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

No, The electronics in both the Bolt and Tesla models have large capacitors to store power to keep settings and power up quickly, etc. All power comes from the main single battery pack.

Tesla has 12V battery as well.  However, when it senses that 12V battery is getting low it will use the main pack to recharge it.

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My lithium battery tools don't show any noticeable power drain, but they've never sat for a month without working, and they don't have any power draining subsystems operating. Also, capacitors 'bleed down' over time, too.

Checked the 6V AGM battery in my COE a few weeks ago- it hasn't been run since last summer. Was down from 6.1 V to 5.3V, and I keep the battery shut-off switch on 'off' whenever I'm not running it. Not bad, but obviously there is some drain in any battery system.

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3 hours ago, ykX said:

It is not really true, many owners of Tesla report "phantom" or "vampire" drain.  It seems parked Teslas loose about 30% of the charge in a month

There is a lot of this discussed if you google the terms

Tesla has 12V battery as well.  However, when it senses that 12V battery is getting low it will use the main pack to recharge it.

Weird the Tesla main blog area states 1 to 2% a month if not plugged in.

In regards to the battery, Tesla you are right does have a deep cycle 12V battery, but originally with the Roadster it used the main battery and in 2010 according to this detailed blog changed to a 12V battery to keep things set for electronic settings. Very weird considering you could do it with the Lithium. Need to dig into this more to find out why as I am curious.

https://teslatap.com/articles/12-volt-battery-compendium/

Good info here on the Tesla's and the various 12V batteries each version uses along with a detailed image of where this battery is located.

Chevrolet Bolt when looking at the web site does not indicate any 12V battery, but I thought about it and dug up an owners manual and it does have a standard 12V battery for basic such as settings in the auto and access into the auto. Very weird as I would think they could use the auto main battery better for this. Page 22 of the owners manual states it does have a 12V battery in addition to the main power systems battery.

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2018/Chevrolet/Bolt/2018-chevrolet-bolt-ev-owners-manual.pdf

@Robert Hall I am sorry, I am wrong both Tesla and the Bolt have 12V lead acid batteries for basic settings in the auto info saving and access into the auto. if something happens to the high power system, you can still get into the auto via the 12V battery.

In regards to the discharge of the main high power battery pack, Chevrolet and Tesla official web sites are stating 1 to 2% reduction for just sitting. As @ykX has mentioned, looking around I do see Tesla owners who have posted up to 30% depletion upon sitting and it is clearly based on where one lives as the heavy drain seems to be common in cold weather areas.

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Just before shutting down all Rivian facilities they made this video to give an update on the whole business. They are still focused on production starting this fall.

 

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NEW FLASH - Honda just signed with GM to use their Ultium Propulsion system and BEV 3 platform for their upcoming two new EVs.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127688_future-honda-electric-vehicles-will-be-co-developed-with-gm-could-have-super-cruise

According to the news release, Honda EV's will be built at GM North America Plants for the Americas Market.

To Quote GM: For GM, it means more production volume, and the chance that the company will reach economies of scale on its Ultium investments sooner. GM president Mark Reuss recently said that about 60% of the company's product development work is now toward EVs, versus 20% just a few years ago.

To Quote Honda:"As EV volume increases, both companies will be able to more rapidly achieve economies of scale, reduce cost and provide value for both our companies and our respective customers," said Jeffrey Smith, Honda North America VP for corporate communications.

Seems this should allow both companies to make a profit and have low cost entry level auto's  on top of mid and luxury version EVs.

:metal: :dance:

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Honda is no dummy.  They are letting GM pay the price for money losing tech no one wants.  It's called risk management and it is a brilliant move by Honda, we've all heard their stance on EVs... they see no reason to invest heavily in BS.  This is for Honda to be compliant with draconian regulations that are counter-customer.

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2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Honda is no dummy.  They are letting GM pay the price for money losing tech no one wants.  It's called risk management and it is a brilliant move by Honda, we've all heard their stance on EVs... they see no reason to invest heavily in BS.  This is for Honda to be compliant with draconian regulations that are counter-customer.

Maybe, but if EVs do explode in sales and threaten the used car market, then Honda was wise in pursuing what looks like a strategic alliance.  EVs, especially BEVs, need to be cheap enough so nobody will want a lightly used ICE vehicle.  Otherwise it is all for naught.

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Posted (edited)

So; GM powertrain, GM platform, built in GM plant. Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge. I fully expect to see Honda roasted for this lame effort, just like GM has been for the same thing numerous times in the past.

WRT ‘both companies can make a profit’ - wow; where’s the body of evidence to suggest that?

Edited by balthazar

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6 hours ago, balthazar said:

Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge.

Sounds like a Generi-mobile experience, to the max yo.  Honda cultists will turn away in droves.  ZERO Honda personality means it will be a lump.  Sparky The Lump shall be his name.

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1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Sounds like a Generi-mobile experience,

Any econobox FWD sedan, coupe, CUV made from 1975ish up until April 4, 2020 from any manufacturer fits into that description right there. 

I dont understand why you only target EVs that way...

These arent even econoboxes...just generic GM FWD re-badges. 

GM's 4 Fatal White Elephants

and have a personality of dry, whole wheat toasted bread.

OK...the Caddy with that weak ass transverse V8 is butterless whole wheat toasted bread with a smidgen of orange marmalade.  Not even strawberry jam but shytty orange marmalade... 

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Honda cultists will turn away in droves.  ZERO Honda personality means it will be a lump.

Oh...look...its got amber style fog lamps,. This is EXACTLY what maniacal Honda fanbois and gals WANT from their cars...  (up high mind you making them totally useless in foggy conditions but that discussion is for another day).  

Yeah... "VTEC just kicked in Yo"  just  oozes from this machine...

RHD 1997 Honda CRV - 13,000 kms - RSMC Delivery Vehicle

 

 

 

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That CR-V is BITCHIN' yo!

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55 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

These arent even econoboxes...just generic GM FWD re-badges. 

GM's 4 Fatal White Elephants

Oh no; that's ‘horizontal integration’, or ‘current industry trending’, or whatever you want to call what automakers are increasingly moving to — using basically the same platform under multiple models! It’s the fo-shizzal, the new whammy mammy!

What it’s NOT is buying a vehicle built by another OEM and CHANGING THE BADGE ON IT. Can’t think of what that’s called, but there’s a term for it...

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Wow.  80s J-bodies, N-bodies and A-bodies.  Sad era.  And people wonder how Olds and Buick lost so much market share by 1990.  And how Cadillac went from luxury leader to total has been by 1992.

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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

It’s the fo-shizzal, the new whammy mammy!

That is what was funny.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Oh no; that's ‘horizontal integration’, or ‘current industry trending’, or whatever you want to call what automakers are increasingly moving to

I honestly never shunned GM for badge engineering. Well...to the extreme that auto journalists and haters do to this day.  VW did to a better job of badge engineering marketing wise and better job of differentiating in the 1980s and 1990s, but today, you could clearly see (if one chooses to take the VW blinders off) that VW has done a shytty job of badge engineering the last 20 years... As bad as GM was doing it during those 1980s and 1990s...

Honda and Toyota...if one chose to take the blinders off back then...would see that their badge engineering efforts were the SAME as GM's in the 1980s and 1990s.  Its their marketing department that was better than GM's... 

But in order to see that...one has to take off the blinders. One has to ease up on the GM hate and one has to ump their sarcastic view they have on GM and transfer that to Honda, Toyota and VW...

I just wished GM had better marketing then and today to offset the badge engineering efforts.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I was actually being quite serious (despite the appearances otherwise). Products by the same OEM aren’t remotely in the same category as buying vehicles from your competition. 
An ‘80s Pontiac LeMans or a later Vibe are rebadges. The DTS-ish Cadillac above is not remotely that.

Edited by balthazar

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5 hours ago, balthazar said:

I was actually being quite serious (despite the appearances otherwise). Products by the same OEM aren’t remotely in the same category as buying vehicles from your competition. 
An ‘80s Pontiac LeMans or a later Matrix are rebadges. The DTS-ish Cadillac above is not remotely that.

I agree about that mid-80s Sedan deVille listed above. 

Once upon a time, GM would have the same bodies but a lot of differentiation.  Then came homologation in the 1970s which got even worse in the 80s and 90s.  Hence why Olds and Buick lost so much market share for the last quarter of the 20th Century (and the death of Olds in 2004, even though Olds was trying to move away from that as early as the '95 Aurora and the '98 Intrigue).

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On 4/3/2020 at 8:04 PM, balthazar said:

So; GM powertrain, GM platform, built in GM plant. Sounds like a regular ol’ rebadge. I fully expect to see Honda roasted for this lame effort, just like GM has been for the same thing numerous times in the past.

WRT ‘both companies can make a profit’ - wow; where’s the body of evidence to suggest that?

So like the Toyota and GM alliance that Toyota made profit on the re-badge of the Matrix, aka Pontiac Vibe. 

Maybe this time, Honda will fail if they do not have a true different style and GM will be the profit maker.

Interesting times, Interesting

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