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Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, dfelt said:

a 90 second battery swap and off for another 300 miles is faster than any Gas fueling ICE auto can do.

Didnt Tesla already try this in the very beginning?

Didnt Tesla's experience with this concept fail because people dont want to change/swap batteries?

I know when it comes to propane BBQ tanks, the majority of folk dont want to swap out their tanks....folk prefer to keep their own and fuel up. 

Anyhoo, this is why Tesla spent billions creating their own charging network in the first place, right?

I dont think this is a viable solution...for North America at least... 

Edited by oldshurst442

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2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Didnt Tesla already try this in the very beginning?

Didnt Tesla's experience with this concept fail because people dont want to change/swap batteries?

I know when it comes to propane BBQ tanks, the majority of folk dont want to swap out their tanks....folk prefer to keep their own and fuel up. 

Anyhoo, this is why Tesla spent billions creating their own charging network in the first place, right?

I dont think this is a viable solution...for North America at least... 

Actually people have no problem changing out Propane BBQ Tanks as to why the growth of having $17.99 propane tank swaps everywhere. Fast and easy compared to waiting to fuel up the tank.

Tesla dropped the battery swap as the cost of the automated equipment at the time was so expensive, but now especially in china, ya drive into the assigned space, and boom, 90 seconds later your done with a fully charged battery.

I suspect times have changed big enough to make it a more feasible option than the charging station at least in china.

Be interesting to see how this all pans out.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

‘Not wanting to sit & charge’ was already proven with 98% of the market choosing IC.

ICE has a diverse choice of auto's something that EVs are not yet there which you know.

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Sheldon Brown, Toyota's Chief Truck Engineer explained that Truck owners value Low end Torque and electrification makes sense. This does not confirm an EV or Hybrid Tundra truck, but with the success of the Rav 4 Hybrid, this is an interesting read on Toyota and competition with Ford, GM and Ram and how this Engineer see's that Electrification can help give you more Torque than a Diesel with the cleanliness of a Hybrid powertrain.

He does say that truck buyers value ability over MPG so any MPG increase that a possible Hybrid power train gives on top of instant torque from zero would be a bonus.

They also say that the V8 production of engines for Toyota and Lexus is coming to an end, so a TTV6 might be the V8 replacement or a the Hybrid Prime system since the new Rav4 Prime is the fastest auto Toyota makes other than the Supra built by BMW.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-says-electrified-trucks-make-sense-thanks-to-beefy-low-end-torque/ar-BB157Wb9?ocid=msedgntp

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Again I’ll state :: not that long ago many were heralding Automomous driving vehicles because there are “so many bad/ poor/ elderly drivers with low skills”.

Now some are blowing the trumpets at putting these same drivers in vehicles that are the fastest in that brand’s catalog.

Critical Thinking: out the window.

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2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Sheldon Brown, Toyota's Chief Truck Engineer explained that Truck owners value Low end Torque and electrification makes sense. This does not confirm an EV or Hybrid Tundra truck, but with the success of the Rav 4 Hybrid, this is an interesting read on Toyota and competition with Ford, GM and Ram and how this Engineer see's that Electrification can help give you more Torque than a Diesel with the cleanliness of a Hybrid powertrain.

He does say that truck buyers value ability over MPG so any MPG increase that a possible Hybrid power train gives on top of instant torque from zero would be a bonus.

They also say that the V8 production of engines for Toyota and Lexus is coming to an end, so a TTV6 might be the V8 replacement or a the Hybrid Prime system since the new Rav4 Prime is the fastest auto Toyota makes other than the Supra built by BMW.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-says-electrified-trucks-make-sense-thanks-to-beefy-low-end-torque/ar-BB157Wb9?ocid=msedgntp

Kinda sad that they are willing to ditch the V8.  I Hope that GM/Ford/FCA does not make the same error, especially when it comes to trucks. . . . at least until BEVs can really carry the load of a typical full-size pickup.

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13 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Kinda sad that they are willing to ditch the V8.  I Hope that GM/Ford/FCA does not make the same error, especially when it comes to trucks. . . . at least until BEVs can really carry the load of a typical full-size pickup.

I cannot seem to find the writeup that stated it, but I thought this last 7.3L V8 was it for ford. It would carry them through till the conversion of EV trucks was standard. I know GM has stated that the blueprint design of the small block V8 motor will get tweaks over the next decade, but they expect it to also be the last of the V8 motors as they move to an all EV product lineup.

I suspect with Europe and Asia motor taxes on size, that the power will come in Hybrid and EV auto's.

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It's the first practical thing she's said on the subject in like forever.  Hello?  They'll never be mainstream.

 

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5 hours ago, ocnblu said:

It's the first practical thing she's said on the subject in like forever.  Hello?  They'll never be mainstream.

Your right, you will be dead by the time they are mainstream in your area. For others they are becoming main stream which is why on the West coast you have charging everywhere and see so many. Once full size trucks are available, the change will happen even faster and jump again once full size EV SUVs are available.

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They. Have. To. Be. Priced. Competitively.
You can't displace $45K IC trucks with $80K and $125K EV trucks. It's disconnected from reality and the market to believe so.

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6 hours ago, balthazar said:

They. Have. To. Be. Priced. Competitively.
You can't displace $45K IC trucks with $80K and $125K EV trucks. It's disconnected from reality and the market to believe so.

Exactly.  If they really want to replace ICE with BEVs, BEVs have to be significantly cheaper than ICE vehicles since the technology is essentially unproven to the general public (i.e. NOT Tesla owners).

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4 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Exactly.  If they really want to replace ICE with BEVs, BEVs have to be significantly cheaper than ICE vehicles since the technology is essentially unproven to the general public (i.e. NOT Tesla owners).

I am going to disagree that it is unproven. With most people having smartphones, tablets, laptops and so many other electric products, charging and having a battery operated product is not unproven, mostly just unknown and the best way to do that is bring out the trucks and suvs and have driver days where people can stop by, take it for a spin and see how they like it compared to an ICE.

Most people who have taken an EV for a test drive have quickly made the change over to regen breaking from traditional breaking and found the instant torque to be very delightful.

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2 hours ago, dfelt said:

I am going to disagree that it is unproven. With most people having smartphones, tablets, laptops and so many other electric products, charging and having a battery operated product is not unproven, mostly just unknown and the best way to do that is bring out the trucks and suvs and have driver days where people can stop by, take it for a spin and see how they like it compared to an ICE.

Most people who have taken an EV for a test drive have quickly made the change over to regen breaking from traditional breaking and found the instant torque to be very delightful.

Yes, once a customer is convinced that a BEV is the way to go, they are converted to embrace not just the car but all the technology that comes with it.  The vast majority of US car buyers are still on ICE because most BEVs are still expensive and current BEVs are not cheap enough to displace the USED car market at all.  Small devices are one thing; a BEV is a completely different proposition.  I still remember when a cellphone was expensive and did NOT have a touchscreen at all.  I remember when the iPhone came out In June 2007 for $600 that you had to pay for upfront.  Three years later came the iPad at $500 to start.  A LOT of people embraced both technologies very quickly (even if it was a $99 Android phone and/or a $69 Android tablet).

BEVs on the other hand are still a niche product because their market share is less than one percent.  I would like to one a BEV one day, but the prices are simply too damn high.  Most people would agree since they could not afford the monthly payments on a finance job or even a subsidized lease.  Moreover, used car prices are such that a BEV looks too expensive for a lot of people right now or even two years ago.  Now, create a quality BEV with the range of a top of the Tesla for $10K and a LOT of people will line up for their own BEV.

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I was JUST about the comment on $10 000 being unrealistic but I agree with his statement.

 

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7 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Yes, once a customer is convinced that a BEV is the way to go, they are converted to embrace not just the car but all the technology that comes with it.  The vast majority of US car buyers are still on ICE because most BEVs are still expensive and current BEVs are not cheap enough to displace the USED car market at all.  Small devices are one thing; a BEV is a completely different proposition.  I still remember when a cellphone was expensive and did NOT have a touchscreen at all.  I remember when the iPhone came out In June 2007 for $600 that you had to pay for upfront.  Three years later came the iPad at $500 to start.  A LOT of people embraced both technologies very quickly (even if it was a $99 Android phone and/or a $69 Android tablet).

BEVs on the other hand are still a niche product because their market share is less than one percent.  I would like to one a BEV one day, but the prices are simply too damn high.  Most people would agree since they could not afford the monthly payments on a finance job or even a subsidized lease.  Moreover, used car prices are such that a BEV looks too expensive for a lot of people right now or even two years ago.  Now, create a quality BEV with the range of a top of the Tesla for $10K and a LOT of people will line up for their own BEV.

So your saying that $249 a month for 36 months is too much for people to afford a Bolt?

Looking at the time machine of past, GM had it at $349 last summer. Even that is much cheaper than many other ICE options. 

I think the bigger issue is the lack of Marketing by GM for the Bolt and the same for Nissan as the leaf is in the same price range.

Yes I agree with you that Tesla are way over priced for what you get, but I think in many regards, the lack of information, marketing and dealer training is what also holds back EV sales. IMHO

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, dfelt said:

So your saying that $249 a month for 36 months is too much for people to afford a Bolt?

10 000 dollars for a Bolt is a GREAT price.

You know what?  10 000 dollars for a brand spanking Corvette C8 new from the showroom floor is ALSO a GREAT price. 

In both scenarios, 249 a month for 36 months is NOT too much for people to afford.  But we all know that such a low price for either is not reality. 

The thing is, the technology involved does not lend that to happen, right?

Not yet at least.  

PS: I thought GM was losing money on the Bolt that was sold at 349.    Yes, marketing and lack of qualified sales people hold back the Bolt, but prices for EVs for the masses is not yet in line for them to be sold at and for the masses...

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

10 000 dollars for a Bolt is a GREAT price.

You know what?  10 000 dollars for a brand spanking Corvette C8 new from the showroom floor is ALSO a GREAT price. 

In both scenarios, 249 a month for 36 months is NOT too much for people to afford.  But we all know that such a low price for either is not reality. 

The thing is, the technology involved does not lend that to happen, right?

Not yet at least.  

PS: I thought GM was losing money on the Bolt that was sold at 349.    Yes, marketing and lack of qualified sales people hold back the Bolt, but prices for EVs for the masses is not yet in line for them to be sold at and for the masses...

 

Marketing is an issue since GM does not advertise all that much with cars these days.  There is also a product issue.  If the Bolt were the size of an Equinox, sales would be triple what the Bolt has sold since inception.

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Another Truck maker with value surpassing Legacy OEMs with nothing delivered yet and now what was once offered to Tesla as a superior truck to the abomination Tesla truck is now moving forward with reservations to open June 29th 2020 and deliveries to begin in 2022 with an as yet to be announced partner per the CEO interview on Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nikola-badger/nikola-in-talks-with-automakers-for-badger-pickup-truck-production-founder-idUSKBN23H39S

CEO of Nikola says the Badger EV Truck will have a 600 mile range with option of fuel cell hybrid or pure EV compared to the Tesla truck with only a 500 mile range.

Nikola has also started building their own Hydrogen fueling network which they say will be open to everyone with plans for 700 stations across the nation.

 

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According to COO Jim Farley, blame it on the Pandemic but the redesigned F-150 will finally be unveiled July 25th 2020. and this new truck will have a new electrical architecture that is believed to use what the Mach-e has for over the air updates plus allow both ICE and EV trucks. 

With that said, Ford COO Jim Farley did say that the EV truck and Van will come to market mid 2022.

So will Ford seize the day or will they be late to the party as Tesla, Rivian, Lordstown and GM have all stated they will have their EV Trucks out in 2021 and aimed at Fleet buyers.

🤔

All-Electric-F-150-04.jpg

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/ford-coo-says-electric-f-150-pickup-and-transit-van-will-arrive-mid-2022/

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13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

WHAT is all that hanging down under the Ford?

That EV concept had a non production battery pack and they said that it would be up between the frame and not show like that when they did the train pull.

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