TOYOTA tries to be more

[haypops]

Honda also sells rice grown here in Japan. Korea doens't allow this. I read that Koreans pay 5 times world market prices for rice.

[xdre]

Honda also sells rice grown here in Japan.  Korea doens't allow this.  I read that Koreans pay 5 times world market prices for rice.

?

I don't think anyone's arguing that competition is actually bad (at least, I'm not); just that people stop making the claim that the Asians are no less domestic than the Big 2.5.

Edited June 16, 2006 by xdre

[supermoto]

The claim that the Asians are less domestic than Ford and GM is very valid. Both Ford and GM have many more employees actually working building cars and trucks than any Asian transplant does. Their productivity at their plants is close to and some plants are actually better than the transplants. GM and Ford are going to close more plants than Toyota and Honda have and will still have more. There has been a large improvement in the amount of production done in the US by transplant companies, but they have a ways to go.

Roo, I don't think you actually read much of my posts. The 95 Taurus had 33k 2 1/2 years ago which is very low. I've been trying to catch up since then. A O2 sensor bent by possibly a rock is not an indication of poor reliabilty. Just accept that a domestic can rival the perceived reliability of an import.

[roopull]

Just accept that a domestic can rival the perceived reliability of an import.

Never said it couldn't... & in the case of say Buick V. Kia, it blows the import away.

I said I've never replaced an O2 sensor on any of my cars... including the domestics I've owned.

I find the panicky defense of domestics - defending against offenses that were never made - to be entertaining and telling.

[CARBIZ]

Roo, if you'd hang around here long enough, what you would realize is that as GM fans we are very well aware of GM's shortcomings; however, the general consensus is that Toyota and Honda literally get away with murder by the media, and by default the public in general. We don't need to trumpet GM's failings, we have the media to do that for us. We do, however, need to point out Toyota's failings at every turn because nobody else out there is.

Poke around at some of the other threads here: we love to poke fun at GM's cheap interiors (getting better) and half-fast marketing ploys, but GM's successes do need to be trumpeted.

Nobody is defensive; we are just fed up with the free ride Japan Inc. gets in North America.

[supermoto]

Let me see if I can get the point through your thick skull. A friends Toyota had an alternator failure before my Taurus did. Having an O2 sensor need replacement because of road damage is not a panicky defense. I feel that I have had great luck with this car and that is not a panicky defense, it is just a fact. I asked for specifics about why I should feel disappointed with my reliability so far with a car that domestic haters like yourself will dismiss as unreliable with no proof to back up your claim. O2 sensors are like spark plugs in that as they get older they can still work, but have an effect on performance and fuel economy. I'd be willing to bet that if you look through the owners manual in the maintenance schedule for a number of Toyotas and Hondas, that it will recommend they be changed by 100k miles. Same friend with the Toyota had a Sentra that he went 130k on the timing belt. Most people would recommend against doing that since the cost of failure is so high with a Japanese car when doing that. I have also gone 233k so far with my Chevy truck and have the original rear brakes. Doesn't mean that your car would be a POS because you already changed yours. I also have the original engine, transmission, transfer case, differentials, a/c system, steering linkage and several other things, but OMG I put two alternators in it. I should have bought a Tundra and sold the trailer my Chevy pulls that the Tundra can't.

To clarify my earlier statement, my Taurus is easily as reliable as an import including any Toyota or Honda. Again should I be disappointed in the reliability of my Taurus? I don't need to defend my car, I just asked if the service I received from it is somehow lacking. Compared to people I know with Toyotas and Hondas that think their cars are so superior, I haven't had more expensive maintenance costs with my Taurus and it's even less than some. Your lack of presenting anything outside of never changing an O2 sensor is just as telling of your position, which is one of denial.

[roopull]

CARBIZ said

Roo, if you'd hang around here long enough, what you would realize is that as GM fans we are very well aware of GM's shortcomings; however, the general consensus is that Toyota and Honda literally get away with murder by the media, and by default the public in general.

Yeah... I know & have said essentially the same thing in a few spots on here, but I think BMW gets away with the most BS free publicity of any brand. If GM made the X3, it'd be laughed off the market.

We do, however, need to point out Toyota's failings at every turn because nobody else out there is.

I think that's slowly changing. What I find silly & honestly, a little pathetic, is the abject hatred of Toyota. GM could learn a lot from Toyota, if you ask me & I am certainly no Toyo fan... I've never even owned one, but have owned a GM product or two & my Corvaire was & will always be one of the most fun cars I've ever owned. Somewhere along the line, I suppose by saying ANYTHING good about Toyota, it would seem that I've been dubbed some sort of anti-GM, anti-domestic guy. I'm not... I just see things the way they are & don't apologize for my opinions.

Poke around at some of the other threads here: we love to poke fun at GM's cheap interiors (getting better) and half-fast marketing ploys, but GM's successes do need to be trumpeted.

Oh, I've poked around quite a bit & have done some of that trumpeting, myself... even in this thread, but I guess most of that's been ignored by some on the board.

Nobody is defensive; we are just fed up with the free ride Japan Inc. gets in North America.

Oh, folks are defensive... crazy defensive. For example:

Supermoto said

Let me see if I can get the point through your thick skull.

Not exactly sounding like quiet conversation...

Later, he goes on to blather on bout me being a 'domestic hater' & asks a question that has a faulty premise...

I asked for specifics about why I should feel disappointed with my reliability so far with a car that domestic haters like yourself will dismiss as unreliable with no proof to back up your claim.

I suppose Supermoto was too busy getting panicky to read these things I've already posted in this thread... most in direct response to him:

In the case of say Buick V. Kia, it blows the import away.

Hmmm... doesn't sound like the words of 'domestic hater' to me...

If they make a product that gives me the best bang for my buck, I'll buy & so will every other American.

With that, I point to the Solstice & Sky as proof. Anyone seen a 3rd gen. Miata, lately? They're being outsold 2 to 1 even with the limited supply of the Solstice/Sky.

Hmmm... would a 'domestic hater' cite an example of a 'domestic' company outselling an import brand - specifically in a segment completely & totally OWNED by that brand for the past... what... 15 years?

Now, back to your question of the Camry vs. the Impala... All things being equal, I'd probably go for the Impala, because I'd seriously rather buy an American product... My first car was a 66 FuryIII. I loved that thing.

Hmmmm... not exactly hating domestics there, either...

Personally, I think both GM and Ford have begun to turned that corner. Caddy, Buick, and Lincoln are making great cars & Chevy is really stepping up to the plate with some reliable vehicles (aside from their trucks, for once.)

Caddy, Buick, Lincoln & Chevy are still considered 'domestic' brands, right? Am I confusing something here?

In direct response to Supermoto's first question to me:

Absolutely.... specifically if you've been driving trucks. The Japanese makes can't touch GM & Ford. The Nissan is a nice try, & the Tundra is looking promising, but imo, they have a long way to go.

The Japanese can't touch GM & Ford... domestic hater?

Through work, I've owned a variety of trucks. Although the Chevy Luv & Ford Courrier (a Mazda) were great little trucks, I doubt any logical person would argue that the only place to get a decent REAL truck is Ford or GM.

Only place for a REAL truck... wow, yup, I must really hate domestics.

...and finally, the response I first gave to Supermoto when he asked about his precious little Taurus... did I say his car was a piece of crap? Did I say it was unreliable? Did I cite details saying it was a turd of a car???

But, to answer your question, no you can't really complain. The Taurus is also a bigger & quiter car. I don't recall saying that the domestics don't make any good cars.

Lookey there!!! I actually said he had no cause for complaint! I even complemented the thing!!! I even mentioned aspects of HIS car (a domestic) that are BETTER than MY car!!!!!!! Holy Chit!!! I must be a domestic hater!!!

Hey, Supermoto, just shut up, okay? Until you want to actually read what I say, don't respond. Just... please... be quiet. Sheeesh. You make yourself look silly.

See, the tagline for the forum's title is "fresh ideas for a better GM." Losing your mind like a nutcase anytime someone praises Toyota or criticizes GM certainly doesn't make GM look any better.

Edited June 17, 2006 by roopull

[supermoto]

Looks to me that roo is being totally smug in his attitude. I certainly don't see where I've been crazy defensive. I asked if I should be disappointed and all you come up with is that you never changed an O2 sensor and possibly that I should be disappointed in my car for that reason. I don't consider that addressing my question, which I have asked several times, hence the point about getting something through your thick skull. You certainly won't concede that a domestic can rival a Toyota or Honda on quality and reliability have you?

You earlier stated that GM and Ford have decades of making 100% $h! to make up for. Gee I could be wrong, but that sounds like a domestic hater since you offer no proof of your point. I've owned several GM and Ford vehicles that have been as good as any Japanese one. I had an 84 Olds Ciera that most Japanese worshippers would call crap and yet when I compared it's repair history with a friends Sentra that went over 200k before he sold it running good, he conceded that I really didn't have more problems in the 160k that I had the Olds.

Calling my vehicle a precious little Taurus is an example of your smug attitude of indifference. I feel that it is the equal to a Toyota or Honda in reliability and you counter with a Buick is better than a Kia. Instead of saying if it is good or bad, you point out it only has 118k miles. My friends 94 Corolla has less and has experienced just as many problems.

Earlier you brought up that domestics would be using engines built in China, yet wouldn't respond when I brought up that Toyota was doing that as well. I guess you don't get panicky in a defense, you just ignore the point. I brought up that Harley was doing better than Toyota, but doesn't get praise like Toyota for their success and all you ask is if they're union. What difference would it make? They still outperform Toyota. Try addressing the point.

You're comments about why you have bought Hondas for so long include a very negative stereotypical attitude towards domestic products being poor choices. I guess those aren't words of a domestic hater at all. If the domestics are so bad and not what people would want, then why does GM sell more 4 door sedans in this market than Toyota? Why do they sell more vans than Toyota? Why do they sell so many more SUVs than Toyota or so many more trucks?

You still foolishly believe that since Toyota and Honda have a few token design and engineering staff here that it means they actually produce the car assembled here. Because your Honda was assembled here doesn't make it an American product. Honda got into trouble with import duties a few years back when they cast Civic engine blocks here, installed Japanese made parts inside and called it 100% American when they shipped it to a Canadian factory. GM had Isuzu design most of the Duramax and then use a number of parts from Japan. The fianl machine work and assembly is done here, so would that make it a 100% American product? If it was a Toyota or Honda most people would believe that it is. How about you, is it domestic or foreign. My Taurus and Chevy pickup are both considerably more domestic than any Honda that you have ever owned and more so than any they make today. They are more domestic in total content than any Toyotas made today. Don't forget about the tooling necessary to build that car and where it is made.

Try following some of your own advice roo and read what others say and not just what you want to hear. Address the points made or do what you suggest I do and shut up. You're the one making yourself look silly and some of the responses by others would support that opinion. Why come to a predominantly GM site to brag about your decision to buy mostly Hondas anyway? You have a need to defend the fact that a lot of your purchases over the years have led to a deterioration of our economy.

BTW I have a Honda and Suzuki in the garage and the 04 Honda has required more repairs than the Taurus. Of course I do admit I beat on the Honda much harder.

[roopull]

Dear heavens, man! You asked if you should be disappointed in your Taurus. I said you can't complain about it. What the F more do you need? Jeez. I never once said you should be disappointed in your car. Find it. Quote it. Go on, Einstein... make your next post be you quoting me saying you should be disappointed in your Taurus. Perhaps your Taurus should be disappointed in you! :rotflmao:

Yeah, I personally think the big 3 made absolute crap throughout the 70s & 80s & I sure as heck am not alone in that conclusion! It was that crappiness that left the door open for the importers! If they'd been making decent cars, do you really think folks would have opted for smaller less optioned cars? Sheesh! Of course not!

If anything, I'm pissed at them for dropping the ball & letting the American people down. The UAW & the big three should be ashamed!

And pointing out that your car only has 118K miles isn't an insult to it... I really was surprised to read that & have explained those thoughts already.

Toyota building engines in China vs GM building engines in China... who cares? Neither one are American companies & neither one are Japanese companies. They're both multinational corporations & both are whores to the dollar. Both build cars in more countries than I can count... Yet, all you want to focus on is the ill-conceived notion that you think I'm trying to convince you that Toyota is a domestic brand. I never said that. Sheesh! The closest thing you'll find to that statement is the belief that Toyota is just as domestic as GM - which is to say - not domestic at all. GM stopped being a domestic brand, imo, the second they imported the first foreign built car badged as a domestic brand.

Does GM employ more Americans that Toyota? Sure does. Does GM use more American sourced parts? Not sure, but probably. Does that make them domestic? Not at all.

Yay for Harley! Good on 'em! Who gives a rat's arse? Why does your argument revolve around Toyota? If Harley can make their motorcycles using union labor or not... building here or in Canada or whatever, maybe GM could learn a thing or two from Harley... You're so damned focused on Toyota, you can't hear anything else anyone is saying except TOYOTA! Dude, I don't even like most Toyotas... I respect the company & think they're kicking some major ass, but that doesn't make me a Toyota-lover. It means I can see the truth for what it is. GM is getting its ass handed to it. Care to show me where I'm wrong?

You're comments about why you have bought Hondas for so long include a very negative stereotypical attitude towards domestic products being poor choices.

Are you drunk?

You have a need to defend the fact that a lot of your purchases over the years have led to a deterioration of our economy.

BTW I have a Honda and Suzuki in the garage

Dude... do you realize how silly that just sounded?:rotflmao: Damn, I can't believe you really posted that! NOW is the time to go back & quietly edit it out of your post. I won't tell anyone!

Seriously, though... unruffle your panties. It's just a forum about cars...

[siegen]

Roo, if you'd hang around here long enough, what you would realize is that as GM fans we are very well aware of GM's shortcomings; however, the general consensus is that Toyota and Honda literally get away with murder by the media, and by default the public in general.

I have hung around here long enough to find that a lot of members blindly defend GM, and accuse Honda and Toyota of getting away with murder without any sort of supporting examples (it's just a standard I guess, and doesn't need to be proven). And I notice a lot of members jump to conclusions very easily. This doesn't go for everyone all the time, but I notice it a lot.

Just like supermoto thinking I am somehow bashing his domestic and praising the reliability of the import because I said his Taurus isn't a good example of reliability (did I say it was bad or even mention another car in comparison?).

[CARBIZ]

Well, Seigen, how many examples of media bias would make you happy?

How about the current controversy with Friedman and the New York Times, conveniently ignoring Toyota's increasing truck sales, or the fact that the Tahoe gets better gas mileage than the Sequoia (this has been beaten to death on two other threads recently.) He advocates the annhilation of GM by Detroit.

NAH, THAT ISN'T BIASED.

Okay, how about the Toronto Star (my favorite whipping boy) placing just the mere fact that some troll of a lawyer is trying to round up enough people and evidence to MAYBE have a class action suit in big, headlines above their name mast on the front page of the paper. Oh, and 800k Toyotas being recalled due to the front wheels falling off - buried in the business section. BTW, that rag ignored Toyota and Honda's lying about horsepower numbers, yet the Star went rabid 3 years ago over Hyundai doing far less with their falsified horsepower numbers.

How about Bob Lutz accusing the Star of bias, and then challenging them to a duel, about 4 years ago. The Grand Prix, which the Star had slammed, kicked the Maxima's ass all over the tarmac. The Star printed a huge rectraction, allowing that "sometimes" the media has "preconceptions" when going into a test drive.

How about the mass media coverage of the CR top 10 this year all being Japanese, yet the media carped that Detroit was shut out, conveniently ignoring that BMW, Mercedes and other far more expensive and suppposedly superior vehicles were also shut out.

Or how about CR calling the new Avalon's separating frame, suspension problems and tranny problems "blemishes" and "first year teething problems."

TELL ME SOMETHING, DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT IS POSTED HERE?

[supermoto]

I do recall you stating that the domestics made 100% crappy cars in the 70s, 80s and some of the 90's, when my Taurus was made. Siegen said that my Taurus was not a good example of a reliable car and I was responding to him and for some reason you must think all responses are directed at you. Couldn't be your smug attitude of superiority that you display. You are 100% wrong in your assumption that all domestics were crap or even somewhat less reliable than Toyota or Honda. I have owned as many reliable GM and Fords during that period to believe your unsupported statement. The problem GM and Ford have had is the highly incorrect perceptions of people like you.

People like to do something different than others, thinking that would make them look smarter. In the early 70's gas prices went up dramatically and people shifted towards much smaller cars that the Japanese already had. Most took a bath on a domestic for the privledge of buying a car with better fuel economy. I couldn't count the number of people who spent $40 per month more on payments to have a smaller car just so they could save $30. So they didn't have to admit how foolish they were, they started saying their new Japanese car was so much more reliable and the myth was born.

You are the one who said anyone who believes Toyota's designs and parts come from Japan is ignorant or intentionally lying. With so few design and engineering workers in the US compared to the big 3, Toyota and Honda are far from creating the majority of their new products from those employees. Gathering input is a far cry from creating product. As I stated my truck and car are far more American than any Honda you ever owned. You are either ignorant or blind to the rising sun if you don't see that.

You brought up that GM was building engines in China and when I bring up so is Toyota, you suddenly don't care. GM is and has been a global company based in the US. The products that I buy from them are created by Americans and more so than products by Honda or Toyota. It's obvious that you can't accept that and choose to believe that GM is no more domestic than those Hondas you buy. When you first started buying Hondas they were far from being as domestic as the vehicles I bought.

When I brought up Harley it was not in response to anything you said and your only comment was asking if they were unionized. On this thread, Toyota has been the subject and is praised for their success in the world. I brought up Harley as an example that Toyota isn't the almighty, always right, greatest company in the world that no one can compare to. If you don't feel like addressing that then just shut up instead of saying who gives a rat's a$$.

If you believe that GM is getting dominated by Toyota, good for you. I don't. I see a GM that outsells Toyota in virtually every segment of the market. They have tried to give the unions more than they should for too long. That is costing them too much and they have tried dealing with it in the wrong manner for too long, They appear to be trying to address that now and hopefully they will come out of it as a more profitable company. The media in my opinion has tried to increase GM and Fords problems by being extremely negative and even distorting their situation.

So why does bringing up that I do own Japanese products so silly? I'm sorry I said something that went over your head. I am not blantantly against their products or against Toyota as you seem to think. I just don't give them the free pass the media and many of their worshippers give them. I don't have blind loyalties, nor blind hatred that you display.

[roopull]

It's like trying to have a conversation with an 8 year old.

...an 8 year old girl with her panties in a wad.

[xdre]

Wow. That really added to the discussion...

Toyota isn't even as American as DCX, which itself is up for debate. Perhaps there will be a time when that changes, but it won't be because of Toyota spending megabucks on PR.

Edited June 20, 2006 by xdre

[supermoto]

Wow, did you think about your response for a long time? Seems like it.

[siegen]

Found this news bit published by Honda, a copy available here. I thought it somewhat applied to this article, even though it isn't related to Toyota.

* Approximately 80 percent of all Honda and Acura automobiles sold in America are produced in North America.

* A number of Honda and Acura models are manufactured exclusively in North America, including the Honda Pilot, Element, Odyssey, Ridgeline, Accord Coupe, Civic Coupe and Civic Si and the Acura TL, MDX and RDX.

* Honda has been manufacturing automobiles in the U.S. longer than any other international auto manufacturer, using domestic and globally-sourced parts.

* American Honda was the first Japanese automaker to export its U.S.-built cars to overseas markets (1987).

The full article at that link also gives an information sheet with each of Honda's plants in the U.S. and how many they employ, etc etc.

[pow]

I wonder if Toyota will ever be to America as Ford is to Europe. Most Europeans consider their Mondeos, Kas, Focii, Escorts, and Galaxies to be European, based on where they're designed, engineered, made, and sold. Hell, in Britain, a (Ford) "Transit" is synonymous with "van."

Would any of you guys consider a Ford Mondeo to be European? Or is it still an American car because the badge is American?

[sciguy_0504]

I wonder if Toyota will ever be to America as Ford is to Europe. Most Europeans consider their Mondeos, Kas, Focii, Escorts, and Galaxies to be European, based on where they're designed, engineered, made, and sold. Hell, in Britain, a (Ford) "Transit" is synonymous with "van."

Would any of you guys consider a Ford Mondeo to be European? Or is it still an American car because the badge is American?

Taking that even further...

is Daewoo an American car?

[siegen]

I wonder if Toyota will ever be to America as Ford is to Europe. Most Europeans consider their Mondeos, Kas, Focii, Escorts, and Galaxies to be European, based on where they're designed, engineered, made, and sold. Hell, in Britain, a (Ford) "Transit" is synonymous with "van."

Would any of you guys consider a Ford Mondeo to be European? Or is it still an American car because the badge is American?

I wonder if the Europeans consider their 2006 Civic 3 door and 5 door European, as they're only made and sold in Europe.

[pow]

Taking that even further...

is Daewoo an American car?

If you're talking about the US Aveo, that's irrelevant, as that ignores the millions of Impalas, HHRs, Malibus, Monte Carlos, and other Chevies made in North America. That's like saying Toyota is "not American" based soley on the fact that the Prius is made in Japan.

Edited June 28, 2006 by empowah

[pow]

But anyway, I don't care where my car is made or what country the corporation's stockholders are in. I just want the best for my money, and if that means outsourcing a GM car or buying a foreign brand, so be it. There's no use in complaining about unfair trade practices or whatever, as it is GM's own responsibility to stay on top. GM can compete if they stop making unwise decisions and begin utilizing technology and brainpower to out-cost the imports. Sure, GM has an uphill battle facing them after years of neglect, but their current whiny attitude will do them no good.

edit: I know it's a cliche, but remember, it's survival of the fittest...

Edited June 28, 2006 by empowah

[sciguy_0504]

If you're talking about the US Aveo, that's irrelevant, as that ignores the millions of Impalas, HHRs, Malibus, Monte Carlos, and other Chevies made in North America. That's like saying Toyota is "not American" based soley on the fact that the Prius is made in Japan.

No, I mean Daewoos sold in other countries.

[regfootball]

I wonder if the Europeans consider their 2006 Civic 3 door and 5 door European, as they're only made and sold in Europe.

depends if the Euro's automatically put down everything in their own countries like we do here.