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Toyota News: Toyota Introduces Camry and Avalon with All-Wheel Drive

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8 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Nope, It's dead- coming quite soon.....

Think this could be the shot in the arm that the sedan market needs to keep going...maybe even grow. People want the year round safety....and may not want to spend 50k to do it.

And they wonder why Subies sell so well....

Another car that would benefit from AWD - Ford Fusion. OH wait, that's gone too......

GM knows they can’t sell a 40k AWD Malibu but they certainly sell a 40k equinox.  GM doesn’t want to give the buyers a chance for cheap AWD if they can force them to buy an expensive suv to ultimately get it. 

Now though a basic ct5 AWD is actually an option I guess   .....

 

Edited by regfootball

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What if...a potential customer does not want or need AWD even if they live in snow country.

AWD should be an option, but it shouldnt be forced upon a client to buy it if the customer chooses to want the highest trim of that vehicle. 

Take like me for instance.

I bought in 2012, an Acura TL SH-AWD.

I did not buy it for the AWD. I bought it for the extra horsepower and torque available on the SH-AWD trim versus the lower trim. 

Although the AWD system is trick and awesome, I dont need it, or even want it 7 years later.  Yes, the car seems nimbler when all those trick SH-AWD stuff kick in, but, its still unnecessary heft on my TL that I do NOT appreciate... 

And yes, now that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory since like...20 yeas now or something, I really do not need AWD to get me through Quebec winters. 

In other words,  make all the goodies and highest horsepower ratings available with FWD or RWD only and AWD should be an option on top of that as the final option.  Not as the highest possible trim includes AWD...

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442

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9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

GM should consider putting AWD on all of its (non-Cadillac) sedans as a $1000 option.  They already do that on the CUVs (although not as inexpensively).

I don't think there are going to be any sedans from GM outside of Cadillac in a few years?  The ones left will be Cadillac with their sports car/convertible size trunks.

 

 

 

Edited by frogger
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5 minutes ago, frogger said:

I don't think there are going to be any sedans from GM outside of Cadillac in a few years?  The ones left will be Cadillac with their sports car/convertible size trunks.

 

I think that is the path they are on...Chevy is going to be all CUVs, SUVs and trucks with the Corvette and maybe a small hatchback or two (Sonic?).  Buick will be all CUV,  leaving only Cadillac w/ a few sedans.    They've given up on mainstream sedans, just as Ford has.  

Edited by Robert Hall

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1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

I think that is the path they are on...Chevy is going to be all CUVs, SUVs and trucks with the Corvette and maybe a small hatchback or two (Sonic?).  Buick will be all CUV,  leaving only Cadillac w/ a few sedans.    They've given up on mainstream sedans, just as Ford has.  

That is really sad.  What if the whole CUV/SUV trend gets crushed?  Where will the sedans from GM come in?  As we all know, no trend lasts forever.

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2 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

That is really sad.  What if the whole CUV/SUV trend gets crushed?  Where will the sedans from GM come in?  As we all know, no trend lasts forever.

Then they are screwed for their short-sightedness.   Basically Ford, GM and FCA are giving the mainstream FWD sedan market in the US to the Japanese and Korean companies.   Incompetence and short-term thinking because of the current CUV fad.   Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai and Kia aren't getting out of the mainstream sedan market and will own it in NA.  

Then again, incompetence and short-term thinking is nothing new for the Detroit automakers.... 

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It's not a 'short term trend', folks; it's a market shift. And it's been the better part of 50 years in the making.  Trucks/SUVs are 72% of the USDM and still rising.  Sedans WILL continue to bleed marketshare.  GM & Ford are simply conceding their portion of the 'whip socket segment' to the japanese (who are already madly SUV/CUV heavy, too).

Recall when an SUV in the U.S. only meant the BOF / V8 Explorer or Tahoe??  Once CUVs met sedans in pricing, size & MPG, all the while providing better interior room/capacity, it was game over for sedans.

Jeep went from 63K sales in 1982 to 973K in 2018.  The oh-so-desireable honda accord has lost 42% of it's volume in only 5 years.  I don't know what more telling/damning evidence anyone would require than that.

GM & Ford are absolutely doing long-term thinking here.

Edited by balthazar
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10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Another car that would benefit from AWD - Ford Fusion. OH wait, that's gone too......

I just found out that it's had AWD basically the whole time. 

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27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It's not a 'short term trend', folks; it's a market shift. And it's been the better part of 50 years in the making.  Trucks/SUVs are 72% of the USDM and still rising.  Sedans WILL continue to bleed marketshare.  GM & Ford are simply conceding their portion of the 'whip socket segment' to the japanese (who are already madly SUV/CUV heavy, too).

Recall when an SUV in the U.S. only meant the BOF / V8 Explorer or Tahoe??  Once CUVs met sedans in pricing, size & MPG, all the while providing better interior room/capacity, it was game over for sedans.

Jeep went from 63K sales in 1982 to 973K in 2018.  The oh-so-desireable honda accord has lost 42% of it's volume in only 5 years.  I don't know what more telling/damning evidence anyone would require than that.

GM & Ford are absolutely doing long-term thinking here.

I couldn't agree more. It isn't like it's a small blip on the radar at this point. The SUV/CUV/truck market has been growing and growing for decades. 

Once SUVs/CUVs bridged most of the fuel economy gap, it created the huge swing that we're in right now. People can easily pull 30mpg in their compact CUVs. 

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10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

What if...a potential customer does not want or need AWD even if they live in snow country.

AWD should be an option, but it shouldnt be forced upon a client to buy it if the customer chooses to want the highest trim of that vehicle. 

Take like me for instance.

I bought in 2012, an Acura TL SH-AWD.

I did not buy it for the AWD. I bought it for the extra horsepower and torque available on the SH-AWD trim versus the lower trim. 

Although the AWD system is trick and awesome, I dont need it, or even want it 7 years later.  Yes, the car seems nimbler when all those trick SH-AWD stuff kick in, but, its still unnecessary heft on my TL that I do NOT appreciate... 

And yes, now that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory since like...20 yeas now or something, I really do not need AWD to get me through Quebec winters. 

In other words,  make all the goodies and highest horsepower ratings available with FWD or RWD only and AWD should be an option on top of that as the final option.  Not as the highest possible trim includes AWD...

 

 

Can’t disagree with that.  

https://www.motor1.com/news/95302/pontiac-rageous/

Time to bring back the Pontiac Rageous!

Not a sedan. Not an suv!

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I don't see any reason midsize sedans would make a come back.  Its not like they were being driven like sports cars and people are missing out because they have a 1.5 extra inches of ground clearance and a slightly higher center of gravity.

 

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@regfootball

Ive been wanting THAT car ever since it was shown as a concept waaaay back when. And I wasnt even a family guy then. But yeah,  just looking at the car itself omitting the blaring outrageous  styling cues on it and comparing it to how the modern sedan has evolved and you see quite evidently why and how the people moved away from family sedans to CUVs.  

The Rageous has large doors and they open very wide to let people get in and out of them easily, (and yes its a hatch, and it was a no-no for a car/sedan to have hatches then, but ironically not for CUVs and SUVs, I guess the negative stigma only works for cars as for CUVs, its the ruggedness image that prevails...) so the trunk space is easily accessible. And this is how midsized and fullsized cars of the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s were... 

1997-pontiac-rageous-concept.jpg

Its not even that low to the ground either.

Its funny, but that is how I described what a sedan should be earlier in this thread... 

Edited by oldshurst442
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The Rageous was the first Pontiac concept that made me think the brand was losing their mojo. Never liked the execution there.

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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

The Rageous was the first Pontiac concept that made me think the brand was losing their mojo. Never liked the execution there.

Technically, the Rageous was just another step up of where Pontiac styling was from the late 1980s to 1997 when the concept came out.  And that kind of styling marched on up until maybe 2002 when the Trans Am died and Pontiac ditched the side plastic cladding of the Grand Am, Aztek and Bonneville and debuted the G6, G8,  GTO and Solstice. 

The late 1980s  Dustbuster plastic body cladded minivan along with the FWD  plastic body cladded Grand Prix GTPs and Grand Am GTs should have made you think that way.  About 10 years prior. 

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That cladding doesn't outrage me, after all don't forget where it came from: mercedes. ;)
Even up to the early '00s GPs were still very nicely/aggressively styled :

Screen Shot 2019-11-14 at 10.46.44 AM.png

This, tho I was internally upset the GP had started offering a 4-dr.

The Rageous was jarring in a not-good way, stylistically.

Edited by balthazar

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And the two "big hitters" are: 

Corolla: down 0.3%

Civic: up 0.6%

They really aren't missing out on anything, yet, at least. 

Equinox: up 2.29%

Trax: up 82.04%

Ecosport: up 10.7%

Escape: down 7.2%

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It's not a losing proposition if they were losing money on making those cars. You can't make it up on volume. 

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@balthazar

That was an attractive Grand Prix. As a 4 door and especially as a coupe.

I loved the 1st generation W-Body as well.  A tad less for the 4 door. More as a coupe on the 1st gen. 

I preferred the "Mercury Sable" front end than the base 4 door GP, but the Turbo GP coupe  in 1989 is still a car I lust over to this day...

Image result for 1990 pontiac grand prix 4 door"

I never thought anything about it. The Grand Prix being a 4 door. I guess I was too young to comprehend that Grand Prixs were always 2 door personal luxury coupes.  

Ive mentioned how much I loved the plastic body cladding of Pontiacs during this era, and the Rageous, with its outlandish lines and angles just made me love Pontiac all that much more. 

And then the Firebird/Trans Am get a refresh the following year based on the Rageous' outrageous looks....

Image result for ws6 trans am"

Image result for ws6 trans am"

and I was blown away by them (Pontiac's pony car) again!!!  Made me even more of a fan of the Trans Am than ever before!!! 

I get where you are coming from. The design language of the Rageous is everywhere going nowhere. It can make one dizzy. LOL.    What you dont like about it is what I LOVE about it though.  

One thing you cant argue, the name fits the car PERFECTLY.

OUT-RAGEOUS it certainly is!!!   Its also full of RAGE!!!  I mean. What a PERFECT name for it, really!!!

Id be a VERY PROUD owner and driver  of the Rageous. Its too bad Pontiac never built one for me. *SIGH*

Edited by oldshurst442

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12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I just found out that it's had AWD basically the whole time. 

And I thought they dumped it years ago!

Good to know... 🙂 

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For the 4dr Grands Prix,  I liked the looks of the '97-03 generation...great roofline w/ slim pillars, none of the cheesy cladding.

1997_pontiac_grand-prix_sedan_gt_s_oem_2_500.jpg

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AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

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17 minutes ago, texas99alpha said:

AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

better balance too for FWD based vehicles. 

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On 11/14/2019 at 9:22 PM, Robert Hall said:

For the 4dr Grands Prix,  I liked the looks of the '97-03 generation...great roofline w/ slim pillars, none of the cheesy cladding.

1997_pontiac_grand-prix_sedan_gt_s_oem_2_500.jpg

that might have been the best 4 door version.  ironically, we are inheriting an 08 grand prix soon for the kid to drive.... excitement!

On 11/15/2019 at 10:13 AM, texas99alpha said:

AWD is a great option that I wish Honda would take a hint from. AWD is so far superior to standard FWD in all situations. Makes the car more complete.

Now that the Accord rid itself of the v6, the AWD and v6 apparently must be the reasons du jour for Acura to continue to sell the TLX.....

On 11/14/2019 at 11:04 AM, Robert Hall said:

Yeah, GM doesn't even want to feed the starter market anymore......

that said, they probably will have cheap trim version of the upcoming Trailblazer, and they will probably increase production on the Trax and dump all sorts of already amortized Korean made Trax to fill the entry level.....

I saw a really nice 2019 Cruze premier today.  As always, GM figures it out after its production run is over....

GM is really REALLY missing the boat on affordable FUN and PERFORMANCE cars these days.  The younger gen has no vehicles that are cheap + fun to draw them into GM showrooms.  Camaro aside.

Edited by regfootball
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21 hours ago, regfootball said:

that said, they probably will have cheap trim version of the upcoming Trailblazer, and they will probably increase production on the Trax and dump all sorts of already amortized Korean made Trax to fill the entry level.....

Remember, there is the new Trailblazer coming too. 

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