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William Maley

Quick Drive: 2020 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro CrewMax

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44 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Jersey used to sometimes flag you for significant body panel rust, but they never checked structural.

ykX - when did NJ stop everything but emissions - was it during the recession ‘08-09?

Something around that time I believe.  My first car I owned in NJ in the early 2000s, I remember I got rejected for having bad shocks, even though I didn't feel any issues.  They used to check shocks, brakes and other main things, not sure how much they were checking for rust.  I bought new car in 2006 which had few years until the first inspection and I think they already were checking only emissions.

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Posted (edited)

I remember Ohio back in the late 70s-early 80s having State Police checkpoints set up randomly where they would flag people over to the side of the road and check their tires, lights, wipers, etc. Had 'Inspection Stations' signs IIRC... I wonder if any states do stuff like that anymore.  I remember my goofy older brother complaining about them because he drove '60s-70s rust buckets then that always had something wrong..

Edited by Robert Hall

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5 hours ago, ykX said:

But I work in PA and it seems the inspection here is pretty strict.  It seems among other things they check for rust extensively.

Just like everywhere else though... if you "know" somebody, you can get a sticker on an absolute hoopty.

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On 7/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, ocnblu said:

LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

Agree with you there. 

On 7/27/2020 at 8:43 AM, ykX said:

I like the simplicity.  Definitely will take it over this mess of the front end

2020-chevrolet-silverado-1500-3-0-liter-

I do like the looks of the RAM the most though

Black1.jpg?resize=768,520&ssl=1

Chevy is better looking in person. Ram is unreliable, better to look at the underside or motor bay, as that is what you will see the most of. 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:32 PM, ocnblu said:

Shoot, current generation Tundra bed floors rust out above the floor crossmembers... where the beds are bolted to the frame.  I've seen many of them that way here in SE PA. 

No reason to buy a Tundra. 

On 7/27/2020 at 9:02 AM, surreal1272 said:

Not disagreeing with your post but that was not reason for my reply to riviera. They made the statement that Tacoma sales were garbage like the Tundras when they are not, so much so that they sold double the number of Colorado’s last year despite the Colorado being the overall better truck. Brand loyalty 101, much like the F-150 and Silverado outselling RAM even when RAM has had the better truck at times. 
 

And sorry Balth, but I’m more than happy to show the sheer pile of twenty year old S-10s and first gen Colorado’s that turned to pure $h! since you seem to think that only the Tacoma should face that level of criticisms. Like them or not, they have earned their reputation for being solid trucks with a pretty healthy record in the reliability department. Their high resale values over the years back this up. 

I actually really like the Tacoma, would consider buying one. Yes, S-10 and Colorados ahve gone south here in Ohio, but 97-2006 Wranglers and Rams seem to be the majro candidates here for actual frame rot. 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, David said:

This is an interesting site. Toyota Tundra has a total of 51 recalls from the last 20 years of it's production. Not too bad. There are 7 issues under investigation with 2004 model year having 5 issues under investigation for brakes, suspension issues, airbags and seatbelts. 

The final big thing is the TSBs, 788 in total with the 2014 Model year having the most at 282 TSBs.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/models/tundra/recalls/

Worst year is 2010, Major electrical problems, engine and transmission problems along with wheel and frame issue for not supporting stated loads.

This I do find very interesting, all the open cases that Toyota has yet to resolve around the following issues:

See through rusted out frame assemblies, melting dashboards, Engine Sludge, Soy wire coating that rodents love to chew, oil consumption lawsuit, and so much more.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/problems/

Tundra is Baby Boomer tech, but clearly has a sludge of problems which really makes one question the reliability of the product.

In regards to the service men and woman who buy Asian or European name plated auto's. Yes you have given to your country, yes democracy allows you to pick your product you want to spend your own hard earned coin on.

The question to be asked is how do you changed American companies to build better products if you will not support them and give them the feedback to improve their products?

On top of this, if your going to go around and preach about supporting your own country, how does that work when your money goes out in profits to other country based companies supporting another country over your own?

Just saying, do you support your own US based Companies that pay taxes into the US Government and supports these companies or do you let it go over seas and support a foreign country?

Food for thought!

Good thought. 

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On 7/24/2020 at 6:36 PM, ocnblu said:

485FE1F5-6646-4F51-B672-40C18E6B9ED5.jpg

images.jpg

20171230_115155.jpg

Hell this could be a two year old truck in  Ohio....I have seen Chevy, Ford, Ram,  Tacoma, Tundra, Ridgeline, Nissan Frontier all rust like this. I think the trucks are feeling sympathy for the ships sunk at Midway, and turning to rust in an act of self sacrifce to show respect for those brave machines that fought in 1942. 

On 7/24/2020 at 10:02 PM, oldshurst442 said:

It seems to me that you are making excuses for yourself to feel better about it...

BTW...GM's problems were 20 years and OLDER too...

Yet...for some reason, you only hold GM accountable...  

Like I said. I dont care what you buy. Your pocket, not mine.  Just stop with the bullshyte excuses.  

And I never said fOreIGn trUCk BaD 

I said...its STUPID to think and give pride to FOREIGN owned products made in America any value...and to blast American owned product for problems they had and to IGNORE foreign owned product problems...

You got a problem with American companies building their products elsewhere BUT the USA....talk to Wallstreet about that...

Change your POLITICAL environment, change YOUR OWN mindset and not ONLY be ready to pay  a lot more money for your American owned American built products, but thinking you have NO CHOICE BUT to pay a lot more  for your American owned American built products TO TRULY SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AMERICAN.

AMERICAN WORKERS AND SERVICE PEOPLE DESERVE A LOT MORE MONEY THAN THEY ARE PAID NOW...

You see...

THAT IS AN EMPTY PHOQUING ARGUMENT...   YOU WANT TO BE A GOOD AMERICAN...THEN FORCE YOUR POLITICIANS AND YOUR COUNTRYMEN TO ACCEPT THAT CONSUMER GOODS BUILT IN AMERICA WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE DUE TO THE FACT THAT AMERICAN WORKERS DESERVE A BETTER PAY, BUT FACTORIES WILL BE RETURNING BACK TO THE USA...AND AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL HAVE JOBS TO PAY FOR AMERICAN BUILT PRODUCTS...

LIKE USUAL....FOLK LIKE YOU ALWAYS BARK UP THE WRONG TREE. BELIEVE IN SOME WEIRD PHOQUING LIE, AND STUPIDLY LIVE BY A CODE THAT ONLY DOES YOU HARM...

ANOTHER EXAMPLE:   THE FREEDOM OF NOT WEARING A MASK DURING A PHOQUING PANDEMIC...

WAVE FLAGGING, FREEDOM CRYING NONSENSE...

But yeah...buy your trouble free Toyoter to your heart's content...  Like I said...I dont give a shyte.  Your life. Not mine.  Your money, not mine.  Just STOP with the bullshyte arguments...

 

 

Says the man who bought an acura, a Japanese car built in America. 

On 7/25/2020 at 10:30 AM, surreal1272 said:

Tundra sales are garbage and always have been. The Tacoma, however, continues to outsell the domestics. Not sure where you got the notion that Tacoma sales are bad. 

And good grief! What the hell happened on this thread? Sounds like a few folks need a bed and med check. 

What's new with C and G? It's been that way since I joined in 2007. Every few months guys with white jackets come in and haul people off in Vintage Studebaker pick up trucks, supposedly taking them to vehicular valhalla.  I think Balthazars posting up vintage pics is a futile attempt to pacify and placate these evil goblins of the automotive dark world. 

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On 7/25/2020 at 1:08 PM, balthazar said:

in 2019, the 'coma outsold the GM mid-size pickups by about 93K units.
It's like the.... corolla of the mid-size truck segment. Doesn't seem to matter how mediocre it is (49 recalls, with a couple years earning a recall about every 3.5 weeks), it keeps finding buyers.

It's actually a good truck but getting dated. I would consider one. But I think (and yes I have changed my mind, don't faint, please!) the Ranger is the peach of the crop.  

On 7/25/2020 at 8:25 PM, ykX said:

Profits go to CEOs and shareholders while actual jobs for average people are going to Mexico, China and Canada.  I would rather give my money to the company that gives jobs to American workers than to the bean counters and upper management.

I don't own a Toyota and unlikely will, but my wife drives MDX that was designed and build in US.  And I would rather give money to Honda that provides thousands of jobs in Ohio and Alabama, than to GM that outsorces more than 50% of the product to foreign countries.

Unlike most people on this forum I work in manufacturing.  I happen to work for an American company but I have seen many American companies outsorce manufacturing overseas.  I have sern thousands of people loose jobs because of that, while the tip brass sits here getting richer.  So excuse if I care more about American jobs than CEOs and shareholders.

Don't faint, going to give props to Ford, they employ more Americans in America thatn anyone IIRC. 

On 7/25/2020 at 9:11 PM, balthazar said:

Why are 'shareholders' lumped in with 'CEOs'?
Is the assumption here that shareholders are all millionaires lounging on their yachts? Instead of millions of everyday people with pensions & 401Ks, hoping to be able to retire before age 85?

 


honda & toyota's profits also go to CEOs, upper management & shareholders (tho that last one- not in the U.S.).

Ford built nearly 2,000,000 vehicles in the US in 2019, honda built 1.2 million. Ford employs 85,000 in the U.S., honda employs 31,000.
Between these 2 examples, it is Ford who is giving jobs to American workers, not Honda. And that number used to be much higher, but once you slice a pizza into 80 slices, everyone gets less pizza.

 

BTW, honda also has 2 plants in Mexico, one just opened in 2014. That would be, quite arguably, 'taking jobs away from American workers', no?

See my remark about Ford above. 

On 7/25/2020 at 10:12 PM, balthazar said:

• "stupid decisions" :: Sure- look at so many of toyoter's corporate decisions.

• Most people don't buy equities out-of-pocket; their 401Ks are invested in them without their direct input. That's 100 million people, which is a LOT of John & Jane Q Publics.
 


Obviously with vendor outsourcing and increased robotics, numbers will change. But GM used to employ 600,000. I'm not aware the cumulative investment in the U.S. there has ever been attempted to be calculated.

In all fairness to GM look at how many Robots are not used to build vehicles. 

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On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

But dont forget though, after WW2, the US was the ONLY one left standing with factories still standing and running and producing all kinds of stuff that the world consumed.  

Its like Ford, GM, Coca-Cola etc...benefited from all the one-sidedness and that spilled over to the American  people?    I guess that is the price we paid for with our  Rock-N-Roll and milkshakes and chrome and drive-in movie theatres in the 1950s and 1960s I guess...

Truth

On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

I may need a bed with my meds...but there is a reason I write my posts the way I do...

A broken clock is right twice a day....

On 7/26/2020 at 2:26 PM, balthazar said:

Pretty boring and very 2010.

Should blend in well with the average parking lot full of uninspired vehicles here in the USA. Reason, or one of the reasons, I don't post much here any more. 

On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

Maybe the US is too damned generous with their openness with foreign factories in their homeland?

No doubt about this at all. Not a fan at all of Trump, but at least he tried to take care of American workers. He did feel a bit of responsibility to the folks in Michigan who elected him. We now return you to your ranting and spiteful Stang/Horse/Horse's ass....

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On 7/26/2020 at 1:09 AM, oldshurst442 said:

  Im saying...that GM owned Opel when Hitler was voted in power. Hitler became a dictator and undoubtedly had many many "business" meetings with GM brass (Opel or Detroit brass)  about  cars...and about the upcoming war effort...

Italeri Kfz. 305 Opel Blitz in 1:35 (#216) Afrika Korps | iModeler

Sensitive ties to Hitler...   

And NOBODY could deny that. Well, one could deny it...

 

By this logic I shouldn't do business with any German company....time to get rid of my festool woodworking tools, and other quality German items. 

On 7/27/2020 at 9:08 AM, surreal1272 said:

How “exciting” does a pick up need to be? It’s a damn pick up. 

Actually I really like Pick up trucks, thank you very much. 

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 I've never really had a need for a truck, but I understand why so many people buy them. 

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2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

By this logic I shouldn't do business with any German company....time to get rid of my festool woodworking tools, and other quality German items. 

Actually I really like Pick up trucks, thank you very much. 

Your “liking” them does not change my statement. Again, it is a pick up truck, where function should trump whether or not it has a panoramic sunroof or an 50” screen on the center stack.

On 7/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, ocnblu said:

LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

Oh give it a rest homer. The great thing about this country is that people can buy whatever they want and adorn them with whatever stickers they want. Example, you used to own an “American” car that was made in Mexico by a company based in Italy. I’m assuming you had some Mexican and Italian flag stickers on that Compass, going by your “logic”.

 

 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Your “liking” them does not change my statement. Again, it is a pick up truck, where function should trump whether or not it has a panoramic sunroof or an 50” screen on the center stack.

Oh give it a rest homer. The great thing about this country is that people can buy whatever they want and adorn them with whatever stickers they want. Example, you used to own an “American” car that was made in Mexico by a company based in Italy. I’m assuming you had some Mexican and Italian flag stickers on that Compass, going by your “logic”.

 

 

Except that I do think Aesthetics should matter on a truck. That was my whole point. 

Daughter of a co worker is having a hell of a great career in the air force serving her country, 20 years old, just bought a new Tacoma 4 door 4 wheel drive. She has American falgs all over the thing. Hardly think that she hates her country.  But would like to see her maybe buy an American vehicle. My ideas about them are changing. 

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

 I've never really had a need for a truck, but I understand why so many people buy them. 

I could really use one, thinking hard about buying one. 

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2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, it is a pick up truck, where function should trump whether or not it has a panoramic sunroof or an 50” screen on the center stack.

Once upon a time, trucks were totally about function.
Then they took everything that cars had, added it to their functionality, gave buyers a cornucopia of trims & options and accessories, and the car slipped further into it's open grave. Yep, that included big screens & sunroofs.

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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Once upon a time, trucks were totally about function.
Then they took everything that cars had, added it to their functionality, gave buyers a cornucopia of trims & options and accessories, and the car slipped further into it's open grave. Yep, that included big screens & sunroofs.

I am kinda falling in love with the midsize pickup segment when it comes to new cars, Tacoma, Ranger, Colorado, Gladiator. Some interesting vehicles in that group. The Tundra that started this thread, not so much. 

All the truck you really need....I love it...

Gn9gbVU.jpg

 

 

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3 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I could really use one, thinking hard about buying one. 

Crew Cab trucks with a bed truly make a very usable family auto for hauling around folks, plus being able to throw stuff into the bed that you would normally not want inside an SUV.

I know I will once the EVs are out, be getting another truck as the wife really misses not having it when she goes to Home Depot for her gardening stuff.

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41 minutes ago, David said:

Crew Cab trucks with a bed truly make a very usable family auto for hauling around folks, plus being able to throw stuff into the bed that you would normally not want inside an SUV.

I know I will once the EVs are out, be getting another truck as the wife really misses not having it when she goes to Home Depot for her gardening stuff.

Yeah, unsure of what I want to do. Local dealer ahs a clean used VW alltrack ins tock but would rather ahve a truck. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

homer

Why thank you, dummy!

136518.jpg

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Why thank you, dummy!

136518.jpg

Yeah, you wish you had that much culture. Given your disdain for anything that doesn’t conform to your narrow world view though, its more like...

 

158893ED-4CD9-46DE-B8A3-0E4599D88C7D.png

 

Of course, you had no logical counter for the fact that your initial post was pure hypocrisy and just general false patriotic whining but hey, that’s just par for the course.

 

Same as it ever was.

Edited by surreal1272
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On 7/29/2020 at 8:35 AM, A Horse With No Name said:

Says the man who bought an acura, a Japanese car built in America. 

I didnt do it for America though.  Nor because it was Japanese and therefore more reliable than American...

I bought it because it was my actual freedom of choice that I bought a better product for myself and my family's needs...

I dont do the shyte argument that was presented to me here.  I NEVER heard the, I bought it because it was a better product for me. Fits my needs better..

I got the toot toot toot ,  freedom of choice by using veterans as an excuse and criteria.  I got the reliability card too. 

I pointed out the hypocrisy, the idiocy, the fallacy of that argument. 

Some of us got it. Some of us dint.

On 7/27/2020 at 9:39 AM, balthazar said:

My point was not to at all imply the Chevrolet's were better, as much as it was to point out that the toyoters AREN"T. That's the picture that needs adjustment.

ALL OF US IGNORED THAT MESSAGE AND STATEMENT...  

We still POUND the reliability aspect.  FALSE FALSE FALSE . We IGNORE Japanese and German reliability problems... 

I said that older veterans had the OPPOSITE opinion.  (Got a downvote because "historical nonsense" and that WW2 is...old.)

Some of us pointed out that some of these protected vehicles have problems, RECENT problems but some of us were told that that is in the past. Yet those people defending these more recent problem plagued vehicles STILL want to hold onto grudges from the American brands....while they flag wave about freedom, yet WW2 was about freedom too. But that was tooo far back into the past. But not far enough for their own biased views for  American products...   All over the phoquing place...

Now...these biases have plagued us unto the pick-up trucks...   First phoquing time I hear that American pickup trucks are plagued with problems...   Phoque man,  every phoquing year, 1 million F150s are sold. year after year.  Of course there will be some gremlins.    No MECHANICAL product is perfect.  Definitely not anything Japanese...  Self hating' Americans.   I dont understand it.  

Like I said, Germans are horribly embarrassed by their Nazi past.  So much so that revisionist phoquing historians dont even wanna equate to Nazis to Germans.  Same with the Japanese. Japanese are much much embarrassed by their Empirical time during WW2. But both of these folk will NEVER buy ANYTHING BUT their home turf cars...  

Only the Brits and Americans self hate to the point of driving their own industries to the ground...but hey...we are free to buy what the phoque we want...

Just dont phoquing complain if eventually, there is no more American industries around... 

Some of us all act as if the foreign conglomerate, multinational corporations are all nice and teddy bear like... They do no harm to others, the environment. Dont commit fraud of any kind. Its just the American ones that are evil...

Stupid stupid thinking... 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2020 at 8:51 AM, A Horse With No Name said:

By this logic I shouldn't do business with any German company....time to get rid of my festool woodworking tools, and other quality German items. 

I dont.   Phoque German products. For many reasons.   

I bought a Miele vacuum cleaner for my mom in the early 2000s.  2001?  Her Electrolux from the 1970s finally died on her.   So I thought, German engineering/products =  the best.  Didnt last 3 phoquing years.

So we bought her Sears Kenmore.  2004?   She past 4 years ago, and the thing still phoquing works.  Oh...  When I got married, my wife and I also bought a Kenmore, in 2003.  That too...still phoquing works.  We got central vacuum plumbing installed in to our home from the get go. We havent bought a central vacuum. We got two great working vacuums from the early 2000s still working fine....

I dont want ANY feedback from ANYBODY giving me shyte for this opinion. If it works for the Japanese car/American car argument....it shall work for my German vacuum argument right here right now!!!   Good for the goose, good for the gander...

Back to WW2.  YES...back to WW2...

Why?

Because I said so...

Why dont you wanna hear it?  Doesnt jive with your view and your dumbass thinking...  Tough noogies.  DEAL WITH IT!!! 

German engineering.  (Automotive more or less)   Those awesome, fearsome Tiger 1 tanks, broke down...  The Americans didnt have to do anything with their Shermans, the few Tiger 1s they encountered were mostly broken down.  (OK...the ones that werent, wreaked havoc on the Shermans, but those were few and far between).   The Panzer 3s were not that better either.  They were effective in the Blitzkrieg, but many broke down. Its just that there were sooooo many Panzer 3s. 

The Russian made tanks, everybody made fun of those,  yet they proved to be what won the war on the Eastern front.   The Sherman was nowhere near as deadly as the Panther and Tiger 1 and 2 tanks and the Russian T34.  But...they NEVER broke down...  Like NEVER.    The Panther was a good, reliable and deadly tank. Not enough of them were produced or utilized.  It seemed, German war logistics preferred the shyyty engineered stuff over the good stuff.

The Kubelwagen versus the Jeep.  The Kubelwagen was very reliable but...

The Jeep could haul more, could tow more, and could drive faster over more rougher terrain. 

Yes...1930s and 1940s...  But all I hear is that phoquing lie about German engineering being superior, although German engineering is quite awesome sometimes,  its nowhere near as reliable as some people like to say.  Even in 2020, German cars are plagued by some of the industry's WORST results concerning reliability. 

So why the hatred towards American products?

American products didnt kill millions of people.  It helped the freedom of said killed people. That was then you say? 

Phoque off I say!   America is not a perfect society and country. Many phoquing problems.  But America is STILL better than most countries.  The folk seem to be a tad self centered at times more so than other folk, but its a lovable flaw nonetheless... 

American cars and trucks have CONSISTENTLY been the MOST reliable, TROUBLE free cars and trucks on the phoquing planet since day phoquing one!!! All the way to TODAY!!! But we choose to forget that. 

Americans want to buy some of the world's most shytty cars.

Anybody remember the Toyopet?

The Honda CVCC wasnt all that reliable either. It was a rust phoquing bucket. All Japanese cars were well INTO the 1980s.

Americans are gobbling up Hyundais like no tomorrow.   Where is the outrage for the Pony, the Excel, the Stellar, the Scoupe, the 1st gen Sonata, Santa fey, Tiburon. The Vera-phoquing-cruz?  

Datsun/Nissan cars were always garbage.  Just because we all liked the Fairlady Z shouldnt negate the shyte that Datsun sold us...

Audi and BMW and Mercedes Benzes....NEVER reliable.   

The same years American cars were shyt. Mainly from the mid-1970s (some models only) into the 1990s, the Japanese were marginally better in the 1980s.   WORSE in the 1970s.  WORSE in the 1970s.   The break out was in the 1990s. But American cars were not horrid in the 1990s either.  Japanese cars were HORRID in the 1960s and in the 1970s...  HORRID

But yeah... 

Wave that American freedom flag by buying foreign phoquing cars while STUPIDLY believing American cars are worse than their foreign car counterparts...

Or worse... American jobs angle bullshyte... As proven by some of us that American car makers STILL employ MORE Americans than the foreign ones do... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442

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Going to lock the thread for the time-being.

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      Make: Toyota
      Model: Tundra
      Trim: TRD Pro CrewMax
      Engine: 5.7L DOHC 32-Valve i-FORCE V8
      Driveline: Six-Speed Automatic, Four-Wheel Drive
      Horsepower @ RPM: 381 @ 5,600
      Torque @ RPM: 401 @ 3,600
      Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 13/17/14
      Curb Weight: N/A
      Location of Manufacture: San Antonio, TX 
      Base Price: $52,780
      As Tested Price: $55,020 (Includes $1,495.00 Destination Charge)
      Options:
      Chrome Tube Steps - $535.00
      Stainless Steel Door Edge Guard - $140.00
      Door Sill Protector - $70.00
  • Recent Status Updates

    • Drew Dowdell

      Oh goodie! Look what my mom mailed to me. Ha.....ha.
      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      You betcha!
      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      You’ve heard this theory that there are a large number of people walking around infected by the virus but completely asymptotic? After a day out running errands, I’m not convinced this is true. The virus is clearly having a cognitive impact on these people and they walk among us (or in front of us slowly, or just stand there in the middle of the aisle, or make left hand turns from the right hand lane, or argue with cashiers over 50 cent price discrepancy while there’s a line to the back of the store and it turns out they read the price wrong)
      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      It’s been 10 years together!
      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      Was just told I "must not be much of a car guy" since I don't know about the 2025 Pontiac Firebird that has apparently been on the car show circuit recently. Must have been pretty well hidden since I've been to each of the big 4 US car shows every year since about 2010.
      · 0 replies
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