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Ford News: Could the F-150 Lighting EV be Fords first $100,000 plus EV Truck? No, starts at $39,974!


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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I think even when Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti, Volvo/Polestar have a ton of EV's, Tesla will still outsell all them because the Tesla brand name is stronger. 

And yet, a crappy FORD,  the Mach E, is outselling the Tesla equivalent in North America and in Norway...

When all else is equal, technology and performance, exterior design sells.   GM and Ford and it looks like VW EVs WILL have equal or better technology than Tesla in the next couple of years, so...if Tesla, dont change their now outdated exterior design, they wont be selling shyte.  

And...when THAT happens, I dont care WHAT Wallstreet a$$hats think about GM and Ford and how they value stock prices, because I know one thing, SALES and PROFITS will ALWAYS dictate Wallstreet stock prices.  

What is happening now with Tesla stock prices  is just Wallstreet greed trying to profit from stocks changing hands for GREEDY part time traders...

When (and if) electric pick-up trucks start selling to rednecks and rednecks buy them, it aint Tesla that will be selling 1 million units per year. It WILL be GM and Ford.  Come talk to me then about Elon Musk's billions when HIS money is just calculated on Tesla stock prices and not actual liquid, physical legal tender.  

Edited by oldshurst442
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I don't have a problem with that. It's just that his statements about Tesla are rarely based on reality. I think the lesson here is that maybe he should just hand that bong back to Elon.

Guess your employer found that the fleet deal on a bunch of Mercedes GLAs was a shitty value. That's OK; they don't do anything well either.

Most automakers did better than Ford in Q1.  F-series and commercial vehicles and fleet will probably always be a big chunk of business for Ford.  I think Bronco will do well.  But they killed their c

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6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla will one day make money on self driving cars selling rides, selling advertising through the screen in their car, selling data they collect to marketing companies, etc.  Google doesn't really sell anything, other than those little home speaker things, but they make billions off selling data.  Tesla could make not profit on cars, but make profit in other ways.  

It is an SE trim, pretty common.  Maybe it is better than an Equinox, but it isn't better than a CR-V or RAV4 or a Mazda or Hyundai/Kia product.  Car and Driver's test last year had Escape 6th place out of 6 in a small SUV comparison test and that is the first model year of the current generation.  How to you launch a model at the back of the pack, and then think it can be on market for 6 years while everyone else improves. 

Again, missing the point by a mile (second paragraph)

 

And then there's this,

"Tesla will one day make money"

 

Thats really all I have to say at this point. 15 years without a profit on the actual product but "one day"...

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26 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

And yet, a crappy FORD,  the Mach E, is outselling the Tesla equivalent in North America and in Norway...

When all else is equal, technology and performance, exterior design sells.   GM and Ford and it looks like VW EVs WILL have equal or better technology than Tesla in the next couple of years, so...if Tesla, dont change their now outdated exterior design, they wont be selling shyte.  

And...when THAT happens, I dont care WHAT Wallstreet a$$hats think about GM and Ford and how they value stock prices, because I know one thing, SALES and PROFITS will ALWAYS dictate Wallstreet stock prices.  

What is happening now with Tesla stock prices  is just Wallstreet greed trying to profit from stocks changing hands for GREEDY part time traders...

When (and if) electric pick-up trucks start selling to rednecks and rednecks buy them, it aint Tesla that will be selling 1 million units per year. It WILL be GM and Ford.  Come talk to me then about Elon Musk's billions when HIS money is just calculated on Tesla stock prices and not actual liquid, physical legal tender.  

442,000 Model 3/Y sold in 2020, and 182,000 Model 3/Y sold in Q1 2021.   Tesla does not break down the split, but it has been said that the Y outsells the 3. 

14,805 Mustang Mach-E built in Q1 2021.  

GM and Ford don't have better tech than a Tesla Model Y now, what makes you think that all of a sudden they surpass them in a couple years?  The Ford Shelby GT500 is slower than the Model Y Performance.  But Ford can't make the Mach-E faster than the Shelby GT500, because then they make the Shelby GT500 look bad, so the Mach E has to be slower.  GM does the same thing with all other products have to be slower than the Corvette.  

As far as full size trucks go, Ford and GM with built in loyalty may be able to stay ahead of Tesla in electric truck sales, if they get a jump, which is why it is important to get the F150 Lightning on the market before or at least around the same time as the Cybertruck.  If they let Cybertruck get on the market for a year or 2 before the Lightning, I think they lose a lot of business.

10 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, missing the point by a mile (second paragraph)

 

And then there's this,

"Tesla will one day make money"

 

Thats really all I have to say at this point. 15 years without a profit on the actual product but "one day"...

Tesla is worth 11 times more than Ford now, imagine if Tesla turns some profit, they might be worth 20 times more.

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4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla already beats Cadillac, Lincoln, Infiniti, Jaguar, Acura, and Volvo...and Mercedes Benz 

Corrected for accuracy. 

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GM and Ford don't have better tech than a Tesla Model Y now,

The GM Ultium platform is better than anything from Tesla. I do enjoy that you find time to split that Kool-Aid between Benz and Tesla though. 

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5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is worth 11 times more than Ford now, imagine if Tesla turns some profit, they might be worth 20 times more

LMAO! A higher (and grossly overinflated) stock price does not mean said company puts out a better product especially when they don't even have a profit sustainable product YET. Guess by your logic Tesla is better than Benz. 

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 If they let Cybertruck get on the market for a year or 2 before the Lightning, I think they lose a lot of business.

HAAAAAAAAAA!!!

 

We have talked about vaporware before and before you toot that Tesla horn about the Cybertruck, maybe Tesla should actually sell said Cybertruck first before making such a laughable claim.

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46 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Corrected for accuracy. 

The GM Ultium platform is better than anything from Tesla. I do enjoy that you find time to split that Kool-Aid between Benz and Tesla though. 

Let's see how Ultium is in real world, they are still a year or year and a half way from even selling one.   Until it is on the road, we don't know if it is better than Tesla.  Plus I think people buy a car, not a battery.  People rarely pick a car for an engine, choosing a Mustang over a Camaro solely because they like Ecoboost better than Ecotec.  So if they aren't picking for the engine, they surely aren't going to pick for the battery.  GM still has to build a car around it, and put an interior in it, and GM interiors generally lag behind the competition. 

I actually hope Mercedes crushes Tesla.   But even I know that won't be easy for them.  GM and Ford basically have no chance.  

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I actually hope Mercedes crushes Tesla.   But even I know that won't be easy for them.  GM and Ford basically have no chance.  

Except mercedes has tried to sell themselves as ‘the best’ yet they’re a decade behind /beneath the mountain (some people think) Tesla has built. General Motors is fully invested in a way daimler is not, and they (in your eye) can only move up.
All Daimler’s minor efforts to date have been dismally poor, eradicating any momentum they could’ve had.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Let's see how Ultium is in real world, they are still a year or year and a half way from even selling one.   Until it is on the road, we don't know if it is better than Tesla.  Plus I think people buy a car, not a battery.  People rarely pick a car for an engine, choosing a Mustang over a Camaro solely because they like Ecoboost better than Ecotec.  So if they aren't picking for the engine, they surely aren't going to pick for the battery.  GM still has to build a car around it, and put an interior in it, and GM interiors generally lag behind the competition. 

I actually hope Mercedes crushes Tesla.   But even I know that won't be easy for them.  GM and Ford basically have no chance.  

Funny how that "we don't know if it is better than Tesla" criteria didn't apply to Mercedes EQS the other week. Also funny how you think folks don't choose cars based on engine choices. If that were the case then Cadillac would have no need to put out more powerful variants (a past complaint of yours) since, by your own admission, people RARELY pick a car for the engine.

 

And at least GM is using a refutable and we'll known source for their battery tech, LG, as opposed to Mercedes and their Chinese developed and sourced battery tech. The best or nothing right?

Edited by surreal1272
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38 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Except mercedes has tried to sell themselves as ‘the best’ yet they’re a decade behind /beneath the mountain (some people think) Tesla has built. General Motors is fully invested in a way daimler is not, and they (in your eye) can only move up.
All Daimler’s minor efforts to date have been dismally poor, eradicating any momentum they could’ve had.

Mercedes just built a factory in Germany just for the S-class and EV's (and EQS Is rolling off the line already), and are in the process of building a network of 9 battery factories in 7 location, some of which are already operational.  Daimler is spending $85 billion on EV R&D, plants and equipment from 2021 to 2025.   $85 billion seems pretty well invested.  Because they aren't just coming for Tesla, they still have to fend off Audi and BMW too.  

Plus Mercedes needs batteries for the hybrids that are the bridge to full EV, and all the AMG 63 cars are going to be hybrid 4-cylinder with 643 hp. 

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4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Funny how that "we don't know if it is better than Tesla" criteria didn't apply to Mercedes EQS the other week. Also funny how you think folks don't choose cars based on engine choices. If that were the case then Cadillac would have no need to put out more powerful variants (a past complaint of yours) since, by your own admission, people RARELY pick a car for the engine.

 

And at least GM is using a refutable and we'll known source for their battery tech, LG, as opposed to Mercedes and their Chinese developed and sourced battery tech. The best or nothing right?

EQS production already has begun, and the performance specs are out there, the interior people have sat in, people have driven it, etc.

Yes, vehicles need more powerful variants, but people don't go to a Cadillac dealer because the heard the LGX V6 is under the hood and that is the V6 to have compared to the Toyota V6 or the Honda V6.  People will buy specs, but regular consumers are not really going to care about what kind of battery is in a car.  If GM sold an Equinox with the Ultium battery and Toyota sold a RAV4 with a Panasonic batter, that Rav4 is still going to spank the Equinox in sales because the Rav4 is better and has Toyota build quality, Toyota resale, Toyota reliability, etc.  

 

And Mercedes patterned with CATL on research and design of their battery pack, but the Mercedes battery is made by Mercedes in Mercedes factories, they aren't buying the battery off someone else.  And it is the best or nothing, the battery tech is derived from their 7-time consecutive championship winning F1 car.

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5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

As far as full size trucks go, Ford and GM with built in loyalty may be able to stay ahead of Tesla in electric truck sales, if they get a jump, which is why it is important to get the F150 Lightning on the market before or at least around the same time as the Cybertruck.  If they let Cybertruck get on the market for a year or 2 before the Lightning, I think they lose a lot of business.

You seem to think the F-Series is akin to the cyber truck; the Tesla pick-up as shown is ONE singular model. The F-Series is more like 35 models. Tesla has no chance to approach Ford in sales in pick-ups. Zero.

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15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You seem to think the F-Series is akin to the cyber truck; the Tesla pick-up as shown is ONE singular model. The F-Series is more like 35 models. Tesla has no chance to approach Ford in sales in pick-ups. Zero.

Agree, but I think Cybertruck will outsell the Lightning.  And even if Cybertruck sells 100k a year, that 100k units comes from GM, Ram and Ford market share.  And I think the new Tundra will take more sales, but Toyota needs more commitment in full size trucks.  Toyota should be selling at least 200k Tundras a year, probably 250k.  They need to step their game up.  

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I think Cybertruck will outsell the Lightning

You JUST said ‘people don’t usually buy what’s under the hood’!  How many F-Series buyers per year are there again???

The cybertruck is a dismal example of a pick-up, functionally. Stylistically, it’s the Aztek 2.0.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

EQS production already has begun, and the performance specs are out there, the interior people have sat in, people have driven it, etc.

Yet YOU have not and all of your backpedaling on the matter doesn't change that fact. Besides, according to you, folks rarely buy a vehicle based on what's under the hood lol.

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Agree, but I think Cybertruck will outsell the Lightning.

The entire state of Texas should read your comment if they ever want a good chuckle. Teslas ONE trim (and one ugly as F***) pick up against Ford and what is sure to be a half dozen variations of the Lightning? Yeah, that's a tough one to pick for most folks. Ford commercial business alone could sell more than 100K Lightnings if it wanted and its the commercial realm where Ford will absolutely trounce Tesla and add in GM and RAM to that as we'll because they all have an even bigger foothold in the commercial market than they do the consumer market.

Edited by surreal1272
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4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yet YOU have not and all of your backpedaling on the matter doesn't change that fact. Besides, according to you, folks rarely buy a vehicle based on what's under the hood lol.

 

Not engine type, engine parts or composition.  No one is going to care about GM's LG battery vs Tesla's Panasonic battery or Ford's battery.   Cadillac had the Northstar V8, people didn't flee Lexus, Mercedes and BMW that also had a V8 because Cadillac had "Northstar."   Just like people aren't going to say never mind to a Tesla, because GM has Ultium batteries, which is just a name they made up.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not engine type, engine parts or composition.  No one is going to care about GM's LG battery vs Tesla's Panasonic battery or Ford's battery.   Cadillac had the Northstar V8, people didn't flee Lexus, Mercedes and BMW that also had a V8 because Cadillac had "Northstar."   Just like people aren't going to say never mind to a Tesla, because GM has Ultium batteries, which is just a name they made up.

 

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 And Mercedes patterned with CATL on research and design of their battery pack, but the Mercedes battery is made by Mercedes in Mercedes factories, they aren't buying the battery off someone else.  And it is the best or nothing, the battery tech is derived from their 7-time consecutive championship winning F1 car.

 

If only you actually had a CONSISTANT  pattern to your thought process...

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is worth X times more than Ford now

That’s the LOAN valuation, not actual company value. Know who owns the vast majority of that loan? Not Tesla.

Edited by balthazar
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3 hours ago, balthazar said:

That’s the LOAN valuation, not actual company value. Know who owns the vast majority of that loan? Not Tesla.

Amazing how he doesn’t seem to understand the difference yet. 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Just like people aren't going to say never mind to a Tesla, because GM has Ultium batteries, which is just a name they made up.

Newsflash. All names are made up. Doesn’t change my argument nor make yours any more convincing but hey, let’s talk about names being made up lol. 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Amazing how he doesn’t seem to understand the difference yet. 

I still can't decide if it's willful ignorance or blind apologetic loyalty.

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3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I still can't decide if it's willful ignorance or blind apologetic loyalty.

Stocks. Only thing I can figure.

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On 5/15/2021 at 3:34 PM, smk4565 said:

442,000 Model 3/Y sold in 2020, and 182,000 Model 3/Y sold in Q1 2021.   Tesla does not break down the split, but it has been said that the Y outsells the 3. 

14,805 Mustang Mach-E built in Q1 2021.  

Tesla is over 3 months, that Q1 is over half a month. Lets see how Q2 goes since Mach-e is outselling Tesla in Europe as well as here based on the news.

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On 5/16/2021 at 12:14 AM, smk4565 said:

And even if Cybertruck sells 100k a year, that 100k units comes from GM, Ram and Ford market share.

So now suddenly market share numbers have importance?

I don't think more than a handful of GM or Ford truck buyers are going to jump into the tin foil Tesla; it'll be new-to-truck Tesla owners who think a 'truck might be fun'.

On 5/16/2021 at 12:14 AM, smk4565 said:

I think the new Tundra will take more sales, but Toyota needs more commitment in full size trucks.

toyoter has been hammering at the gates of Truck World for over 2 decades, and as much as they straight up copy the leaders, they still have no idea how to get the job done. The should immediately take watever money they're wasting on NASCAR and dump every penny into the tundra. Then again, toyoter still thinks hydrogen is where it's at.
 

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@smk4565 the more one RESEARCHES the industry of truck buyers and how they view the Cybertruck, the more one realizes that the CYBERTRUCK is a FAILURE among truck buyers. A Winner among NON-TRUCK buyers.

Tesla Cybertruck loved by non-truck owners, less so by truck owners, says survey - Electrek

TO QUOTE:

Among non-truck owners surveyed, the four trucks were pretty much tied. Cybertruck got 25.8% of interest, with Rivian at 24.8%, and Ford and GM tied at 24.7%

But among truck owners, traditional brands won out. Strangely, the GM electric truck came in first by quite a bit, being picked by 35% of respondents. This is odd, given that the F-150 is the most popular vehicle in America and has been for quite some time. Ford came in second with 28%, with Rivian fairly close behind at 23%. The Cybertruck was in fourth place with 14%.

Even Rivian is much more desired by the Truck Buyers of America than Tesla. 

Surprising is GM came in first and Ford second.

This is a great read showing why the CyberTruck FAILS as a TRUCK.

Sorry Tesla Fam: Your Cybertruck Isn’t a Truck, It’s an SUV | Torque News

Yes, a 5th wheel trailer WILL NOT work with the CyberTruck design.

This write up is why the CyberTruck will FAIL in it's original design and I would DOUBT ever come to market as is. The lack of Pedestrian safety design. As such, CYBERTRUCK is ILLEGAL as designed in Europe and many places in Asia. Even here in the US, there are certain issues with it from a Safety standpoint. 

Yes it has been seen driven around California, but that is due to it being a concept, custom built one off BEV that is allowed via special permit.

Tesla Cybertruck: Here's why it couldn't be legal in Europe | Autoblog

TESLA is loosing people right and left due to two main reasons according to this story:

Quarterly price increases on the trucks going farther and farther away from the cheap intro price given and lack of actual detailed delivery, final feature set, etc. Rivian, GM and Ford have all released more info on their trucks and will have them on the market way before what ever legal version of the CyberTruck is revealed.

Interesting in this story is that in 2019 27% of pre-orders were canceled. 2020 had 35% of pre-orders canceled. 

How to Cancel Tesla Cybertruck Order? 9 Facts You Should Know (trucksauthority.com)

End Result, not when but IF Tesla can actually deliver an electrical pickup truck, one has to question if they can actually make a profit due to R&D costs, crazy feature set and price. It will NEVER be cheap. Having standard armor plated body, windows, etc. cost money as well as cost range on the battery pack due to weight. Then add in the standard BIO-Hazard filtration system and I get the feeling Musk is thinking the world is on the cusp of a Zombie Apocalypses with bio warfare.

Plenty more writeups on the TESLA Truck and why it will not win over traditional truck buyers that are buying Millions of trucks a year compared to a paltry 100,000.

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Very cool press release as I can see Ford doing something like this once they start shipping the Ford F-150 Lightning pickup truck.

Ocean to Ocean Reimagined: Mustang Mach-E Pays Tribute to Iconic Transcontinental Journey with Coast-to-Coast Drive | Ford Media Center

Starting in DC and ending in Seattle Ford will do an Ocean to Ocean drive across America reproducing the same drive the Model T did ending at the Worlds Fair in Seattle. This time it will be done with the Mach-E.

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