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Will Competition Destroy Tesla?


David

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2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I know the SLS had some beginnings when they were merged.  But Daimler never told Dodge they couldn’t build a new Viper, Daimler walked with all those other platforms, they could have spent their own money on a new Viper

Daimler LIMITED Chrysler's budget when they were merged together...

Daimler LIMITED and outright DENIED their choices...

The RWD Charger concept was postponed. Daimler denied further development of that RWD chassis. And when they greenlit the RWD LX cars, Daimler made them use the old E Class platform.  

I guess it was less expensive?  But YOU just said that Chrysler made money in the 1990s...

YOU GUESS???

OF COURSE THEY DID!!! 

THEY MADE MONEY HAND OVER FISTS WITH THE MINIVANS, THE CAB FORWARD LH CARS AS THESE WERE SMASH HIT SELLERS, WITH RAM AND JEEP AND OTHER SUVs LIKE THE DURANGO!!! 

Chrcyo made money even selling Lamborghini after Chryco had a little bit of a hiccup in those 1990s.

But...they had enough R&D money to start HUGE pet projects LIKE the Viper, the PROWLER, the RWD Charger that they wanted to bring out BEFORE there was a Daimler-Chrysler merger...

So...after the merger, when Daimler left Chrysler dead and gutted... where would Chrysler find the money?  

Its easy for Daimler to do an SLS...they USED STOLE Chrysler's already ADVANCED in R&D platform!!! The chassis was an all aluminum chassis. Something that Chrysler engineers learned to do when they owned Lamborghini and decided to experiment with the Prowler...

 

Nevertheless, that's precisely what happened, according to Inside Line. According to an unnamed insider, the all-aluminum chassis was already in the prototype stage and an all-new suspension design was in the works when Mercedes decided to put the also-in-development SLS AMG on the same path.

 

Ive posted THAT exact thing above but I highlighted other stuff....I highlighted other things here because you seem to want to gloss over facts...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/car-design/a27637/the-secret-history-of-the-plymouth-prowler/

 

.As it turns out, the car was far more than a 1990s spin on a 1933 Ford—it was Chrysler's largest-ever experiment in building aluminum cars, coming nearly 20 years ahead of the aluminum car revolution we're seeing today.

"The whole thing really was an exercise in research for how to use aluminum materials," Gale says of the Prowler. "At the time, Chrysler really didn't have a lot of applied research. So in my view, this was a great way to kind of force us to take a look at aluminum stamping, aluminum forming, extrusions, welding, and combining that with composite materials.

"Prowler was really more about that than it was the car itself, and I was kind of the one that pushed that. I was just anxious to see us have that kind of research," Gale says.

"At the time, we could see where things were going to go, especially if you looked at a long-term trend, with fuel economy and weight," Gale told me. "And yet we really didn't have the kind of expertise we felt we needed. So having [Prowler] happen, having the ability to bring [aluminum] panels into a production environment, definitely provided us with knowledge that we wouldn't have gained in other ways."

 

You are calling the Daimler-Chrysler CEO of Daimler stupid?

Why?

For merging with Chryco?

Chryco in the 1990s was a very high time for Chryco.  Something that Chryco hadnt seen since the 1950s and 1960s.   Chryco was on a styling hit parade in the 1990s like they were in the 1950s and 1960s.  Chryco didnt see that kind of engineering prowess since the 1950s and 1960s...

Chryco was on a roll in the 1990s and yes...that stupid CEO phoqued it all up for Chryco.   He did however advantage Daimler though through all that sabotaging he did against Chrysler...

You admitted without knowing it that Daimler WAS the cause for Chryco's demise in 2009.

The merger ended in 2007.  The downfall of Chryco WAS during the merger...BECAUSE Daimler was a shyte for nothing company...  BEFORE the merger...Chrysler was FLYING high! 

Mercedes though...BEFORE the merger...was in SHAMBLES.

BMW was kicking their ass!

AUDI was kicking their ass!  JOHAN was in command then!

SHYTE...even Lincoln was outselling Mercedes then! 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla has 4 too, and none of what Ford, VW or GM has is as good as what Tesla has right now.

The Ford F-150 Lightning and Mach-E greatly disagree with your half-baked assessment and for all of Fords flaws, both will be more reliable than any Tesla.

Edited by surreal1272
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6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Cybertruck is nothing but showmanship.  And if that is the best of what Tesla could do...it has already lost...  

The Roadster 2.0 

Tesla's Roadster delayed until 2022

should have been out already...selling to folk that are buying the CURRENT ICE C8 Corvette...

But the longer Elon is stalling it, the more time Chevy has got to perfect and out perform the Tesla Roadster 10 fold with the EV Stingray and the 1000 HP full on tri motor EV C8 Zora...

2023 Chevrolet Corvette E-Ray: Everything We Know About the Hybrid

 

Like I said... Elon has FAILED to take Tesla on to the next level.  He ALLOWED his competition to get close to him and even surpass him...

Instead of getting the Roadster out when the ICE C8 came out and embarrass Chevrolet with its dinosaur ICE sports car, Musk allowed Chevy to showcase that ICE is NOT dead, ICE is still very fast, affordable.  Musk allowed GM and Chevy to gain MORE fans for the Vette, and Musk allowed Chevy engineers to tell the world that if you think this BASE ICE Corvette is fast...wait until the EV Vette hits the showroom.  IT WILL BE FASTER AND AFFORDABLE TOO!!!

While everyone was waiting for the Roadster 2.0 because we thought that was fast,   Musk allowed THAT momentum to slip through his fingers and now the EV C8 Corvette is the one we are eagerly awaiting for...

Cybertruck will be on sale before the F150 Lightning or the electric Silverado, and Cybertruck does some cool stuff, I think people will buy it.

The Tesla Roadster is 3 times the cost of a Corvette, also anyone that is a Tesla fan, won't buy an ICE car, so they aren't buying Corvettes, plus the Model S is faster around a track than a C8.

Also when is the Corvette going to take the Nurburgring record?  Right now it is 42 seconds a lap slower than the AMG GT Black series, which in a few months will be Mercedes 2nd quickest car.  

Corvette has good performance per dollar, always has, but it isn't some world killer sports car.  The Veyron has a 275 mph top speed, the Corvette's is like 200.   The Corvette does 0-124 mph in 12 seconds, the AMG One does it in under 6.   And even if they build a 1,000 hp Corvette in a few years, the Rimac Nevera is on sale now with 1,900 hp and an 8.6 second 1/4 mile time.  

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14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cybertruck does some cool stuff, I think people will buy it.

No they wont.

The world saw what the Hummer looks like, so they will stay the PHOQUE away from it.  Only rabid Tesla fanboys will buy that. And ONLY the ones that have the room for one. THAT equals to NOT many...  The Hummer is also huge...but it has a more BROADER appeal.

The Hummer H1 and H2 were PREMATURELY canceled.  With the EXPLOSION of Jeep SINCE the cancelation of HUMMER ICE and the introduction and SUCCESS of the Ford Bronco only tells me that the HUMMER EV willl TROUNCE the Cybertruck in sales.  They are indeed in the same category those two...

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Tesla Roadster is 3 times the cost of a Corvette, also anyone that is a Tesla fan, won't buy an ICE car, so they aren't buying Corvettes, plus the Model S is faster around a track than a C8.

Again...GLOSS over the fact that in 2022...an EV HYBRID Vette is gonna appear. 

GLOSS over the fact that the C8 YOU are referring to is the BASE PHOQUING CORVETTE THAT COSTS HALF THE PRICE OF A PHOQUING PLAID MODEL S...

YOU JUST ADMITTED THAT ONLY TESLA FANBOYS ARE GONNA BUY THE ROADSTER OVER THE C8 EV...BUT THE VETTE HAS 1000% MORE FAN BASE THAN THE ROADSTER HAS AND EVER WILL!!!

AND...THE VETTE EV HYBRID WILL EMPLOY SOME C8 Z06 TRACK SUSPENSION...   I SERIOUSLY THINK YOU SHOULD STOP THE SHYTE CONVERSATIONS...THE CORVETTE'S MISSION AT THIS POINT IN TIME IS TO BE A TRACK BEAST...ITS A SPORTS CAR YOU DUMMY!   THE C8 YOU SEE NOW IS A BASE MODEL!!!

IT IS ITS MISSION IN LIFE TO BE A TRACK BEAST!!!

YOU THINK THE MODEL S WITH ITS 5000LBS WEIGHT IS GONNA STILL BE A TRACK WINNER WHEN A LIGHTER, MORE CAPABLE SPORTS CAR WILL COME OUT??? IF YOU THINK THAT, YOU ARE STUPIDER THAN I THOUGHT!!!

 

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

but it isn't some world killer sports car.  

YES IT IS!!!

THE VEYRON EXISTS BECAUSE IT WANTS TO DEFEAT SPORTS CARS LIKE THE CORVETTE!!!   THE CORVETTE IS THE PRIMARY CAR THESE HIGH EXOTICS TRY TO BEAT YEAR AFTER YEAR...

BTW...IT WOULD BE SILLY IF BUGATTI BUILT A ONE MILLION DOLLAR CAR THAT GETS TROUNCED BY A SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLAR ONE.  AND IT NEARLY DOES WITH HALF THE HORSEPOWER...

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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The Model S and now the Plaid is a testament on what Tesla could do.  No doubt. 

The Roadster 2.0 when Musk showed it, it took the world by storm.  And rightfully so! 

These are amazing machines.

But to simply prop them up only to shyte on the competition is wrong.  Its wrong because the competition HAS caught up to Tesla.  

The Roadster 2.0 was unveiled in 2017 and it was supposed to come out in 2020. Well, in 2017, the competition for EVs from the legacy automakers was DISMAL!  THAT is why we could put Tesla on SUCH a HIGH pedestal...then

There was NO Corvette C8 let alone a HYBRID Mid -Engined one that is gonna be out for sale in 2022. next year.

The Roadster was supposed to be out LAST year.  The Roadster 2.0 is not even planned to come out in 2022...

In 2017, there was NO Mustang Mach -E to show us that even Ford for phoque's sake could bring out an EV that RIVALS a Tesla product.  

There was NO EV F150 concept to tell us what FoMoCo has planned.   THE biggest F150 news in 2017 was  GM STILL bitchin' and whining on their ads that an aluminum  bed is bad for business.  

The Porsche Taycan was still a pipe dream...

There was NO Audi E Tron GT.  If the Taycan was a pipe dream, the E Tron GT was semen still stuck in the balls of a limp penis VW Group not even ready to shoot and fertilize an egg...

THAT is how advanced Tesla was OVER its competition in 2017...

In a short 4 years...EVERYBODY has caught up to Tesla...

The next update to the Taycan and the Plaid Model S will be an insignificant blip... which by Porsche standards not liking to lose to its competition...will probably BE in 2022...

The Corvette Hybrid C8 will bury the Roadster in news and performance. 

The Cybertruck will be a farce while the Hummer EV will be the NEW star in rap videos.]

And ALL THAT is happening in the next 2 years or less...  

YES...Tesla has got 4 models.  4 OUTDATED models...with a 5th outdated model, the Cybertruck, ready to be laughed at BECAUSE Elon Musk has smoked his braincells to death...  

 

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45 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

IT IS ITS MISSION IN LIFE TO BE A TRACK BEAST!!!

 

 

Corvette C8 Nurburgring time:  7:29.9

Corvette C7 Z06 Nurburgring time:  7:13.9

Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series Nurburgring time:  6:43.6

 

Get back to me when the Corvette beats the AMG GT.   

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7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Corvette C8 Nurburgring time:  7:29.9

Corvette C7 Z06 Nurburgring time:  7:13.9

Mercedes-AMG GT Black Series Nurburgring time:  6:43.6

 

Get back to me when the Corvette beats the AMG GT.   

It will...soon.  

PS:  

YOU are comparing a BASE PHOQUING CORVETTE TO A HIGH END BLACK SERIES GT...

Edited by oldshurst442
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27 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

But to simply prop them up only to shyte on the competition is wrong.  Its wrong because the competition HAS caught up to Tesla.  

 

 

How many sedans on market today do 0-60 in under 2 seconds?  Or forget sedans, just cars in general?  The Rimac in Europe but not here yet and the Model S.  How many EV's have a 400+ mile range?  Only the Model S.  How many even hit 325 miles or more?  Only Tesla's.   No one has caught up yet.  And they might, but Tesla won't stand still either. 

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

It will...soon.  

Better be fast because Mercedes is going to break that 6:43.6 record in the next couple months.

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If Tesla remains static, they will be surpassed and falter.
And IMO, if they stop making vehicles and merely supply batteries/motors to other manufacturers, they failed.
They've certainly made missteps (who hasn't); they should never have dumped the Roadster, then announced a return almost 5 years ago now. All those potential roadster buyers are long gone.

We'll have to watch & see what happens.

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10 hours ago, balthazar said:

If Tesla remains static, they will be surpassed and falter.
And IMO, if they stop making vehicles and merely supply batteries/motors to other manufacturers, they failed.
They've certainly made missteps (who hasn't); they should never have dumped the Roadster, then announced a return almost 5 years ago now. All those potential roadster buyers are long gone.

We'll have to watch & see what happens.

To be fair, the original roadster never sold well for the same reason it wouldn't sell well today. Outside of the Miata, no one wants those type of cars anymore. That niche died (for the most part) in the 90s, if you ask me.

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11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

How many EV's have a 400+ mile range?

In the next year, there will be a half dozen models making that claim. As others have told you a thousand times already, the competition is closing in and closing in fast and they are going to provide a far more reliable product, in most cases. Also, show us the take on the long range models and you might have an actual argument. Until then, it's just more pom pom waving. 

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23 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

In the next year, there will be a half dozen models making that claim. As others have told you a thousand times already, the competition is closing in and closing in fast and they are going to provide a far more reliable product, in most cases. Also, show us the take on the long range models and you might have an actual argument. Until then, it's just more pom pom waving. 

Who all is claiming 400+ miles of range? I'd love to see it but that's a hell of a distance. 

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3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Who all is claiming 400+ miles of range? I'd love to see it but that's a hell of a distance. 

Whether there will be or not...

THERE IS NO PHOQUING NEED FOR 400 MILE RANGE...(if one has a charger at home...if and WHEN charging times drop....when there are ENOUGH charging stations at every street corner...)

gasoline powered cars barely have over 400 mile range...   

But...gasoline powered cars cant be filled up at HOME... 

Its the SAME old tiring argument...

 

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I read a comment somewhere where a poster was commenting on range for EVs...

He said:

"there is no need for a 400 mile range battery and more in an EV"

why?

"A gasoline powered car lugs around 400 plus mile of range in the form of gasoline. gasoline is heavy, but ONLY when  the tank is full. When its empty, it aint heavy.  We also dont drive with a full tank of gas all the time. Its only full once. We drive the first mile and its no longer full and its 1 mile less heavy. And we dont rush to fill 'er up the next day either.  Some of us dont even fill 'er up all the way. Some of us wait until we squeeze the last fume out of the gas tank before we gas up again.   A battery powered car lugs around that heft ALL the time REGARDLESS if on a full charge or a 0% charge.  When charging times drop to the levels of gasoline fill-up times, there wont be a need to lug around all that heft."

 

Think about that for awhile...

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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33 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Whether there will be or not...

THERE IS NO PHOQUING NEED FOR 400 MILE RANGE...(if one has a charger at home...if and WHEN charging times drop....when there are ENOUGH charging stations at every street corner...)

gasoline powered cars barely have over 400 mile range...   

But...gasoline powered cars cant be filled up at HOME... 

Its the SAME old tiring argument...

 

WUT? 

I'm not arguing for or against a needed 400 mile range or "filling up" at home.

I was simply asking what manufacturers are coming out with 400 mile range vehicles. 

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42 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Who all is claiming 400+ miles of range? I'd love to see it but that's a hell of a distance. 

Even though it's an outlier, the Lucid Air is claiming over 500 miles of range. I'd have to see that to believe it, to be honest though. There is an Audi A6 variant claiming 400. I may have overstated the one year claim but I do believe within 5 years, 400+ mile range will be more the standard than the exception. 

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8 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Even though it's an outlier, the Lucid Air is claiming over 500 miles of range. I'd have to see that to believe it, to be honest though. There is an Audi A6 variant claiming 400. I may have overstated the one year claim but I do believe within 5 years, 400+ mile range will be more the standard than the exception. 

I had to Google the EQS, they're targeting 478 miles on the Euro cycle but it's estimated to be under 400 in the EPA's cycle. 

500 miles is insane. I only see a need or even a want for something like that in a long-haul truck, be it a semi or dually 3500/350's(loaded rating or something similar). 

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41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

WUT? 

I'm not arguing for or against a needed 400 mile range or "filling up" at home.

I was simply asking what manufacturers are coming out with 400 mile range vehicles. 

True...but I wasnt questioning you or your stance REGARDING 400 mile range either...

I was just stating that there might NOT be a need for 400 mile range and COMPLIMENTING your post rather than questioning it...

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Who all is claiming 400+ miles of range? I'd love to see it but that's a hell of a distance. 

But YOU are quite defensive there...

Is it because you are sooooo comfortable if phoquery posts?

Like you want to mess with my mind because I cant take an adolescent  joke about a phoquing your mother joke when my mom passed away just a few months prior.

When we are ALL NOT adolescent's anymore and chances are at OUR age, a parent might pass away because...parents DO get older and DO NOT live forever?

I mean....sex with your momma jokes...  do they EVER get stale?  

Like never?

Stop the phoquery!!!

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16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cybertruck will be on sale before the F150 Lightning or the electric Silverado, and Cybertruck does some cool stuff, I think people will buy it.

The Tesla Roadster is 3 times the cost of a Corvette, also anyone that is a Tesla fan, won't buy an ICE car, so they aren't buying Corvettes, plus the Model S is faster around a track than a C8.

Also when is the Corvette going to take the Nurburgring record?  Right now it is 42 seconds a lap slower than the AMG GT Black series, which in a few months will be Mercedes 2nd quickest car.  

Corvette has good performance per dollar, always has, but it isn't some world killer sports car.  The Veyron has a 275 mph top speed, the Corvette's is like 200.   The Corvette does 0-124 mph in 12 seconds, the AMG One does it in under 6.   And even if they build a 1,000 hp Corvette in a few years, the Rimac Nevera is on sale now with 1,900 hp and an 8.6 second 1/4 mile time.  

WRONG, Tesla has stated the Tesla Y will be the first auto in production at GigaFactory Texas starting end of 2021 followed by the Cybertruck early 2022 the same time that Ford F-150 Lightning EV is scheduled to go into production. Musk keeps saying Cybertruck 2021, but he has ZERO credibility in actually staying on with delivery dates. He says things to keep folks interested, but has yet to actually deliver on schedule.

See Massive Progress At Tesla Giga Austin: March 12, 2021 (insideevs.com)

I can tell you Tesla will not have the options Ford will offer or Chevrolet for their EV truck.

image.png

Tesla has ZERO real world details let alone test mules running compared to Ford has had test mules running for the last half of year and has clearly posted their actual specifications for the Lightning EV.

image.png

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23 hours ago, balthazar said:

Why are U.S. Model S sales down 50% from 3 years ago?
Are people moving on from just 0-60 numbers?
Is the now 10-year old Model S just too out-of-date?

Because they can get a Model 3 or Y for cheaper and the Model S is old.  I think Model S could use a bigger update than it got, the did a mid cycle refresh a few years back, and when it was time for a new one, they did another mid cycle refresh.

12 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

In the next year, there will be a half dozen models making that claim. As others have told you a thousand times already, the competition is closing in and closing in fast and they are going to provide a far more reliable product, in most cases. Also, show us the take on the long range models and you might have an actual argument. Until then, it's just more pom pom waving. 

Personally I hope Mercedes buries Tesla the way they did most of the other luxury brands.  I am not a Tesla fan.  I am just being realistic that it isn’t going to be so easy.  

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Who all is claiming 400+ miles of range? I'd love to see it but that's a hell of a distance. 

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

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12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Whether there will be or not...

THERE IS NO PHOQUING NEED FOR 400 MILE RANGE...(if one has a charger at home...if and WHEN charging times drop....when there are ENOUGH charging stations at every street corner...)

gasoline powered cars barely have over 400 mile range...   

But...gasoline powered cars cant be filled up at HOME... 

Its the SAME old tiring argument...

 

Agreed but some will want a longer range so I think it is smart to offer a 400 mile option.  All these EV’s are best served with a 200-250 mile range, any more than that is  just hauling extra battery weight for no reason.  But easy enough to sell a long range option.

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8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because they can get a Model 3 or Y for cheaper and the Model S is old.  I think Model S could use a bigger update than it got, the did a mid cycle refresh a few years back, and when it was time for a new one, they did another mid cycle refresh.

Personally I hope Mercedes buries Tesla the way they did most of the other luxury brands.  I am not a Tesla fan.  I am just being realistic that it isn’t going to be so easy.  

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

No. The Audi A6 and Lucid Air both will. You really need to educate yourself. 

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