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Will Competition Destroy Tesla?


David

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8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Personally I hope Mercedes buries Tesla the way they did most of the other luxury brands.

They haven’t buried anyone to date and have no more a shot of burying Tesla than the competition does. Think about it before you misread that. It sure as hell wont start with the ugly EQS.

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13 hours ago, balthazar said:

I thought all that mattered was 0-60.

It is not all that matter.  The Model S is a freakishly fast car though, that is going to attract sales.  But the Model 3 Performance also is really fast for less money, and the Model S was dated.  Perhaps with this refresh the Model S will see an increase in sales.

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5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

They haven’t buried anyone to date and have no more a shot of burying Tesla than the competition does. Think about it before you misread that. It sure as hell wont start with the ugly EQS.

Mercedes is #1 in the world in luxury cars sales.  Mercedes has the Nurburgring record holder, and  7 consecutive Formula 1 championships. They are king of the mountain at the track and the sales chart.  Although Tesla and BMW beat Mercedes in the USA last year, so they need to get that sales title back.  

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5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

No. The Audi A6 and Lucid Air both will. You really need to educate yourself. 

A6 E-tron will probably come up short of 400 on the EPA rating, but still adequate range for sure.  Audi and Mercedes pose the biggest threat to Tesla.

Lucid Air claims over 400, let's see what happens, they never have even built a car yet.  And how is their quality going to be?  Probably where Tesla's was 10 years ago.   EQS is currently in production, as is the Model S.  These other guys are concepts, pipe dreams, and "coming soon" product.

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14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

So then since your adding the unreleased EQS to the list (European production for China does not count since they have not shipped yet there or here), lets as @surreal1272 stated the Audi and Lucid, plus since we are covering models that are stated to do 400 miles and yet are not released.

Rivian, Ford, GMC, Chevrolet just to mention a few more that have been announced, have mules out and about and will go into production and be out in 2022.

Seems lots of 400 mile BEVs will be available.

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Interesting, but in talking with @A Horse With No Name Chris today and his Family, it dawned on me as we were discussing auto's that Tesla has something that I doubt Mercedes-Benz will do. The official tear downs of the Tesla's by the guy that does reports on the auto build quality and sells it to other auto companies to compete.

Tesla has made their motors and Controllers built to Military grade spec. As such, while the Fit n Finish sucks and all the plastic inside the auto sucks, the powertrain and battery packs will last way longer than just about any other auto company.

I believe they took the military grade route to ensure their autos in these early days would drive and do well as we all know Military gear gets abused. Seems Tesla get abused and still keep running as we have seen many used Tesla's for sale with 400,000 miles on them.

I doubt Mercedes-Benz will build their EQS to this level of durability.

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22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A6 E-tron will probably come up short of 400 on the EPA rating, but still adequate range for sure.  Audi and Mercedes pose the biggest threat to Tesla.

Lucid Air claims over 400, let's see what happens, they never have even built a car yet.  And how is their quality going to be?  Probably where Tesla's was 10 years ago.   EQS is currently in production, as is the Model S.  These other guys are concepts, pipe dreams, and "coming soon" product.

Oh f@#king stop it. Their claim is as valid as Mercedes and the EQS which is almost assured to not keep the 400 miles range. It’s been well discussed as to why so just save it. 
 

As far as Lucid, their quality can be no worse than Tesla’s is TODAY. Screw ten years ago. 

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is #1 in the world in luxury cars sales.  Mercedes has the Nurburgring record holder, and  7 consecutive Formula 1 championships. They are king of the mountain at the track and the sales chart.  Although Tesla and BMW beat Mercedes in the USA last year, so they need to get that sales title back.  

So, in other words (and without the fanboy superlatives), they haven’t buried anyone. They can’t even beat BMW and Tesla at this point. That is not “king of the mountain” in sales but then again, fanboy logic. 

Edited by surreal1272
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18 hours ago, David said:

Interesting, but in talking with @A Horse With No Name Chris today and his Family, it dawned on me as we were discussing auto's that Tesla has something that I doubt Mercedes-Benz will do. The official tear downs of the Tesla's by the guy that does reports on the auto build quality and sells it to other auto companies to compete.

Tesla has made their motors and Controllers built to Military grade spec. As such, while the Fit n Finish sucks and all the plastic inside the auto sucks, the powertrain and battery packs will last way longer than just about any other auto company.

I believe they took the military grade route to ensure their autos in these early days would drive and do well as we all know Military gear gets abused. Seems Tesla get abused and still keep running as we have seen many used Tesla's for sale with 400,000 miles on them.

I doubt Mercedes-Benz will build their EQS to this level of durability.

Teslas's do seem quite durable.  Mercedes used their Formula 1 powertrain team to help develop the EQS motors, and the new AMG plug-in hybrid powertrains.  Formula 1 parts have to be pretty durable.  

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Actually...

Racing cars are built ONLY to last THAT race...   

Balthy already stated that.

Engines, transmissions...are all rebuilt after EVERY race.  Tolerances are soooooo tight, that after running hard for a full race, the wear and tear on them in soooooo great that a rebuild is necessary because after a race, the tolerances are no longer in spec, wear and tear... therefore the engine is not making the full amount of horsepower that was engineered  into it and the transmission will fail...

The aeropackages on a race car are engineered to be just strong enough to do its job, but not as strong as to be too heavy....  In other words:  aeropackages and even the chassis, are NOT overengineered to last a lifetime, just strong enough to be as light as possible to accomplish the task at hand in that one race. Which is to be as light as it could possibly be...

Even the tires...are not 

Quote

Formula 1 parts have to be pretty durable

 

pretty durable...

Durable means they last 50-60 thousand miles, right?

Well...we all know that racing tires do NOT last but a handful of laps...

 

The only race cars I know that HAVE to be durable, are the ENDURANCE race cars that race for 12 or 24 hours...

But even THOSE...all THEY have to do is just outlast the competition and for only...that 12 or 24 hour period...

However, race cars are built sturdy...to handle  high G Forces and high speed impacts to protect the driver. 

But being built sturdy does NOT equal being built durable. 

Being built to high tolerances does NOT equal to being built durable.

Race cars are NOT built to be durable. 

Passenger cars are built to be durable. They are built to last a couple of hundred of thousand of miles...  and there is a usual warranty from the manufacturer of 5 years or 50 000 miles.  If only a race car could get 5 months and 5 000 miles...

 

 

 

 

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On 6/18/2021 at 9:28 PM, smk4565 said:

The Tesla Model S does it now, the Mercedes EQ S will do it.  End of list.

From what I've read, the EQS is estimated to be sub-400 miles on the US test cycle. 

On 6/19/2021 at 6:02 AM, surreal1272 said:

They haven’t buried anyone to date and have no more a shot of burying Tesla than the competition does. Think about it before you misread that. It sure as hell wont start with the ugly EQS.

Yeah, Mercedes botched the styling of the EQS and I'm usually a sucker for Mercedes styling. That thing just has not grown on me yet. I don't care that its function over styling. It's ugly. 

2022-Mercedes-Benz-EQS-34.thumb.jpg.b0b27b3344bc6c4b2b106b2228f3c060.jpg

No Way Smh GIF by Amazon Prime Video

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14 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pro-level race vehicles are completely gone through after EVERY RACE. Some motorsports rebuild the entire engine after every race. 

I would not choose to call that 'durable' as related to passenger vehicles.

F1 changed that awhile back as the top teams would rebuild/replace-with-new after every race but now they're required to last 7 races(sealed - cannot be touched) or they're penalized. But, your point still stands. 7 races is far from extreme durability as it's estimated to be only 1326 miles + practice and qualifying(add 15%..?). 

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Engines, transmissions...are all rebuilt after EVERY race. 

Not in F1. 

Edited by ccap41
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44 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

F1 changed that awhile back as the top teams would rebuild/replace-with-new after every race but now they're required to last 7 races(sealed - cannot be touched) or they're penalized. But, your point still stands. 7 races is far from extreme durability as it's estimated to be only 1326 miles + practice and qualifying(add 15%..?). 

Not in F1. 

I get what you are saying. And yes, you are not arguing against what Balthy and I are saying, but only correcting the information at hand...which is cool. And necessary for mis-information not to be reproduced.

Thank-you.

It is quite recent, this rule, I believe. I think 2018?

But even before 2018, sometime between the 1980s when it was carefree and 2018, the engines had to last 4 engines per driver for the whole season  or 5 races per engine.  In other words, some sort of durability was and is applied to F1 engines and gearboxes.  Which is nice to know.  

 

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/promoted-how-f1s-engines-survive-the-punishment-of-a-long-season-5285414/5285414/

The relevant sections of the Formula 1 technical regulations written by the FIA (motorsport's governing body) decree, in short, that each driver may use only three engines per season to cover every practice session, qualifying and race.

Article 23.3 (a) of the 2018 FIA sporting regulations states: "...each driver may use no more than three engines (ICE); three motor generator units-heat (MGU-H); three turbochargers (TC); two energy stores (ES); two control electronics (CE) and two motor generator units-kinetic (MGU-K) during a championship season.

Long gone are the carefree, spendthrift days of the mid-1980s (pictured below), when the likes of BMW specialised in producing 'qualifying grenade' motors, capable of pushing out around 1500bhp... before internal components melted and the engines were scrapped.

Now, with only three PUs permitted per driver, each of them has to last seven races, whereas previously it was four per driver, or five races per engine. The requirement for PUs to last an extra two race weekends was "a significant step", in the words of one engineer, but the change was made to help reduce the cost of supply to the customer teams.

 

 

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We'll I honestly do not think any other auto company, here in the US, Europe or Asia has gone the route of Military Grade for the power train, controllers and batteries like Tesla. This was talked about since 2018.

Tesla Model 3 is 'military-grade tech years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (yahoo.com)

Tesla Model 3 is 'years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (cnbc.com)

And we have not seen any other auto company offer a Bio-Weapon filtration system.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

If Tesla can do this, and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the standard of the world, why does the new EQS not have this filtration system or Military Grade hardware for moving the auto?

Right, not willing to spend the money!

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Maybe they shouldn't be military-grade if they want to turn a profit..? 

Mercedes is a profitable company, Tesla is not. 

I think this right here is what absolutely kills the car for me. This ratio being off messes with everything else. 

EQS.JPG

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3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Maybe they shouldn't be military-grade if they want to turn a profit..? 

Mercedes is a profitable company, Tesla is not. 

I think this right here is what absolutely kills the car for me. This ratio being off messes with everything else. 

EQS.JPG

Agree that is a big issue and goes with the bunker style of you cannot see out of the auto very well, just sucks along with the overall jelly bean look.

In regards to Military Grade, they have been building their motors, controllers and battery packs this way from the beginning, I see no reason they cannot continue in this robust way but improve the manufacturing process of the auto's and quality. 

If Musk would only embrace the things that the Legacy makers do right such as turning out a truck every few seconds, AKA the assembly line process rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, they would do so much better. Then again their assembly of the auto is one of the most cost expensive ways since they do build way too many small parts to be assembled such on the Model Y.

The Giant Casting machine for the Model Y will greatly improve assembly quality along with reducing cost of manufacturing. Going from 70 pieces to assemble to 1 giant cast unit will help with quality.

I remember when this first came to Light in 2020.

Cast Parts On The Model Y: Specialists Talk About What It May Have (insideevs.com)

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7 minutes ago, David said:

In regards to Military Grade, they have been building their motors, controllers and battery packs this way from the beginning, I see no reason they cannot continue in this robust way but improve the manufacturing process of the auto's and quality. 

And they haven't made a yearly profit since the beginning either so you're requesting higher quality in other places which only increases costs even more. That sounds like a formula to lose more money. 

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3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And they haven't made a yearly profit since the beginning either so you're requesting higher quality in other places which only increases costs even more. That sounds like a formula to lose more money. 

Valid point, but one does have to question the crazy poor leadership of Musk. He bought out his brothers or relatives, who ever it was Solar Panel business and seems to get distracted in so many ways about building Tesla Auto's. 

We also have talked about how after the multiple decades of building the Charger/Challenger how it is pretty much paid for, so after a decade and half of building the motors/controllers/battery packs to Military grade spec, one would think they should have it down for a profitable build now.

Yet, we all know they are not making money especially when taking the carbon credits into account. So where is the real expense?

Is it the distraction of solar panels, Wall Power, Space X, etc., etc., etc.,

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23 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pro-level race vehicles are completely gone through after EVERY RACE. Some motorsports rebuild the entire engine after every race. 

I would not choose to call that 'durable' as related to passenger vehicles.

F1 gets 3 engines,  MGU-K, MGU-H and transmissions per year and have 20-23 races a year.  So their engine has to do 7 races and most of those laps are 70-80% full throttle at 15,000+ RPM.  No passenger car could run 2 hours around a track near redline 80% of the time without everything over heating and the engine probably dying, let alone do that in 7 races, 7 qualifying sessions and 21 practice sessions.  

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4 hours ago, David said:

We'll I honestly do not think any other auto company, here in the US, Europe or Asia has gone the route of Military Grade for the power train, controllers and batteries like Tesla. This was talked about since 2018.

Tesla Model 3 is 'military-grade tech years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (yahoo.com)

Tesla Model 3 is 'years ahead of peers' but still expected to lose money (cnbc.com)

And we have not seen any other auto company offer a Bio-Weapon filtration system.

Putting the Tesla HEPA Filter and Bioweapon Defense Mode to the Test | Tesla

If Tesla can do this, and Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be the standard of the world, why does the new EQS not have this filtration system or Military Grade hardware for moving the auto?

Right, not willing to spend the money!

The EQS's air filtration system is as good as a hospital operating room.

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20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

F1 gets 3 engines,  MGU-K, MGU-H and transmissions per year and have 20-23 races a year.  So their engine has to do 7 races and most of those laps are 70-80% full throttle at 15,000+ RPM.  No passenger car could run 2 hours around a track near redline 80% of the time without everything over heating and the engine probably dying, let alone do that in 7 races, 7 qualifying sessions and 21 practice sessions.  

Corvette with passenger can easily do this!

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13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS's air filtration system is as good as a hospital operating room.

Where is this stated on MB web site? Media Site? Press Release as I have not seen it or read it.

Nothing posted here: Daimler Global Media Site

Nothing posted here: Mercedes-Benz Cars - Daimler Global Media Site

Nothing posted here: Mercedes-EQ - Daimler Global Media Site

Especially here seems nothing in rereading this about that level of air filtration: ‘This is for you, world’ - the marketing campaign for the EQS - Daimler Global Media Site

Looking through this I cannot seem to find it either: The new EQS - Mercedes me media (mercedes-benz.com)

No mention of it in the streamed live press release: Mercedes-Benz – Livestream.

Finally found it, no mention of at good as a Hospital operating room, only states the EQS has a Hepa filter system which is an optional item on the EQS: Comfort features in the new EQS - Mercedes Me media (mercedes-benz.com)

Before you point to the line in the EQS link above, yes I read the following:

image.png

Now if someone can find this imagenary ZG 250-1 certification of Viruses and bacteria that would be great since I can only find this as a statement on MB web site, NO CDC, New England Journal of Medicine or any other official health site seems to have this certification. MB also DOES NOT seem to quote where this fictional cert comes from unlike the other * items listed at the bottom of the web page. So NO it does not count as a bio-hazard filter system equal to Tesla.

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https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/The-new-EQS-ENERGIZING-AIR-CONTROL-Plus.xhtml?oid=49404671

Filter removes over 99.65% of all particles.

https://www.motoring.com.au/mercedes-eqs-cabin-air-as-good-as-operating-theatre-127936/

"So proud of the clean air achieved by its new climate control, Mercedes has had its filtration system certified according to the stringent DIN EN 1822 standard, with the car-maker claiming no other car currently on sale offers cleaner cabin air."

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