GM Ending Production of Bolt EV, EUV Models

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

This is what my gut tells me, there will eventually be a cheaper Bolt replacement. 

Uhhh maybe when all of their factories are up and running for EVs..? 

Also, have you not paid any attention to the Bolt? When it came out it was priced at 37,500. Today a Bolt is 26,500. 

Because GM was losing money on every one they sold.  Which is probably why it is gone, they don’t need the CAFE or emissions credit if they have other EVs.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Because GM was losing money on every one they sold.  Which is probably why it is gone, they don’t need the CAFE or emissions credit if they have other EVs.

Where are you getting your information that the Bolt was never profitable? Or, what information do you have that says they didn't reduce costs and weren't losing money on it in the end? 

Yeah, we all read they were losing money when it first came out but sales were low and the tech was fairly new. Fast forward 7 years and it's a whole new game. Tesla wasn't profitable 7 years ago when the Bolt came out either and now look at them. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Where are you getting your information that the Bolt was never profitable? Or, what information do you have that says they didn't reduce costs and weren't losing money on it in the end? 

Yeah, we all read they were losing money when it first came out but sales were low and the tech was fairly new. Fast forward 7 years and it's a whole new game. Tesla wasn't profitable 7 years ago when the Bolt came out either and now look at them. 

They lost money on it throughout but that's not the issue I see here. The issue I see is where SMK now says that was the reason they stopped making the Bolt. However, he spent previous posts here asking "Why GM? Why?". More of that patented bar moving/trolling. 

 

The Ultima platform corrects the Bolt shortcomings and underpins future EVs with literally better everything while hopefully driving real profits for them. 

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Where are you getting your information that the Bolt was never profitable? Or, what information do you have that says they didn't reduce costs and weren't losing money on it in the end? 

Yeah, we all read they were losing money when it first came out but sales were low and the tech was fairly new. Fast forward 7 years and it's a whole new game. Tesla wasn't profitable 7 years ago when the Bolt came out either and now look at them. 

Bloommberg had reported Chevy was losing $9,000 per Bolt in 2019, that is the before the battery recall that cost GM about $1 billion and LG about $1 billion.  And before they lowered the price by $10,000 from the original price.  That car had to lose money the whole time.  GM has said they don't think their EVs will turn profit until 2025, and the Bolt is like 99% of their EV volume last year.

[oldshurst442]

Lets not forget that GM will stop producing those Bolt batteries since the Ultium battery system is very very different.  

The Bolt is obsolete in other words. 

Ultium is profitable at all price points as we speak with the various sales projections that are intended for each model.

And when all Ultium platforms come on line,  including the C8 Hybrid which is this summer, GM could slash prices left right and center and lose a few bucks.   The 100 year plus history of GM has done this before.  The 30-40 different EV models that Ultium is going to spawn NOT including Brightdrop's production and Honda's licensing affords GM that luxury allows GM to do something like that.  Lets NOT forget that GM also sells and will continue to sell all KINDS of ICE trucks and SUVs INCLUDING the fullsizers.  And THOSE are CASH COWS for GM.  Tesla is experiencing this now with slashing of prices with a drop of cash flow and investors are having a bit of a panic...

Why?

Tesla needs billions upon billions JUST to refresh the now old 4 models they have.  They will need billions more to replace them. No signs of the 18 wheeler either...   

GM nixing the Bolt is really not an issue.   The Equinox EV hits the streets in 6-8 months from now.   The Equinox EV will probably be a hit.  Tesla will feel the hit on its Model 3 and Model Y EVs in about a year from now.   Lets talk about how Tesla will have really really restricted cash flow when the Equinox EV hits the streets...

 

Edited April 27 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

No signs of the 18 wheeler either...   

This is already in a few company's hands. I believe Frito-Lay and Pepsi both already have some. 

[oldshurst442]

30 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This is already in a few company's hands. I believe Frito-Lay and Pepsi both already have some. 

Thanx.   Walmart too I believe.  

After all those delays on it, I simply forgot that it has been in service since just before XMAS and got caught up with the dissing.  

[ccap41]

8 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Thanx.   Walmart too I believe.  

After all those delays on it, I simply forgot that it has been in service since just before XMAS and got caught up with the dissing.  

Yep. I mean, it is Tesla so it is surprising something ACTUALLY made it to production. I have no clue how many have since made it to clients' hands. I would have to thing they can produce one a week..? 

@Drew Dowdell do you have an professional insight to this? Do you know how many may have reached customers' hands or how many they can produce? 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Yep. I mean, it is Tesla so it is surprising something ACTUALLY made it to production. I have no clue how many have since made it to clients' hands. I would have to thing they can produce one a week..? 

@Drew Dowdell do you have an professional insight to this? Do you know how many may have reached customers' hands or how many they can produce? 

What I do know is that Pepsi (who owns Frito-Lay) is only using the trucks on long haul for the Frito-Lay products, but even then, they are self-limiting to 425 mile round trip routes.  When hauling soda, Pepsi limits the route to 100 miles.... but that is a Pepsi limitation while they are still testing the performance of the Semi. 

This may shock some of you, but Musk also fudges the numbers a bit. He says the Semi has a 500-mile range with a gross vehicle weight of 82,000 pounds... but that includes the weight of the semi. Tesla doesn't publish the weight of the semi, but as it is estimated to have the equivalent of 10 Tesla Model-S Plaid battery packs, it is entirely likely that the tractor weighs more than a diesel equivalent. Thus total payload capacity is lower than a diesel rig. This is probably why Pepsi is being more cautious when hauling soda. 

To the best of my knowledge, PepsiCo is the only customer to take delivery of the Semi, and they have 36 of their 100 unit order as of earlier this month.

[ccap41]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

What I do know is that Pepsi (who owns Frito-Lay) is only using the trucks on long haul for the Frito-Lay products, but even then, they are self-limiting to 425 mile round trip routes.  When hauling soda, Pepsi limits the route to 100 miles.... but that is a Pepsi limitation while they are still testing the performance of the Semi. 

This may shock some of you, but Musk also fudges the numbers a bit. He says the Semi has a 500-mile range with a gross vehicle weight of 82,000 pounds... but that includes the weight of the semi. Tesla doesn't publish the weight of the semi, but as it is estimated to have the equivalent of 10 Tesla Model-S Plaid battery packs, it is entirely likely that the tractor weighs more than a diesel equivalent. Thus total payload capacity is lower than a diesel rig. This is probably why Pepsi is being more cautious when hauling soda. 

To the best of my knowledge, PepsiCo is the only customer to take delivery of the Semi, and they have 36 of their 100 unit order as of earlier this month.

I believe ALL semis have to go by the GVWR including the truck itself. I do recall reading a bunch of sites trying to estimate the difference between Tesla's semi vs "conventional" semis. The additional weight the electric semis have is why they're allowed an additional 2000lb gross weight, because the rest of the ICE trucks "only" have 80,000lb maxes. 

Thanks for the 36/100 deliveries. I had no clue they already had that many. 

This is such an intriguing market for EVs. I think once companies realize the long-term savings they'll have, the whole market will be making this shift. I'll be really curious how this market will shift in the next 10-20 years.

[David]

@NINETY EIGHT REGENCY @Drew Dowdell @oldshurst442 @ccap41 @surreal1272 @regfootball @smk4565 @trinacriabob

Thank you 98 Regency as I had a start of a story on this but this week has been hell for me. I am glad someone got this up to discuss.

GM has already stated that the plant producing the Chevrolet Bolt and Bolt EUV will stop production end of December 2023 so that it can convert over to build the Chevrolet Silverado EV pickup while adding additional employees.

Media has been covering this plenty of the end of the Bolt is the end of a cheap EV. Yet Chevrolet seems ready to replace the average priced Bolt EV at $32,777 with a Equinox EV starting at $30,000 before the $7,500 federal tax credit.

I did a search west of the Mississippi river and while I did not find much inventory, the lowest prices on Average was $32,777 and I did not find any under $30,000.

I found 259 in a 1,390-mile radius of my zip code. 

So GM has stated the following: Customers to Benefit from Full $7,500 Clean Vehicle Purchase Incentive Across GM’s Entire EV Fleet Under MSRP Cap

QUOTE:

Today, we are thrilled to share a further update that we expect that Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV will continue to qualify for the full $7,500 credit after Treasury’s proposed guidance on the critical minerals and battery component requirements take effect on April 18. This means that qualifying customers will have access to the full $7,500 credit across our entire EV fleet under the MSRP cap in 2023:

• Cadillac LYRIQ
• Chevrolet Bolt EV
• Chevrolet Bolt EUV
• Chevrolet Equinox EV SUV
• Chevrolet Blazer EV SUV
• Chevrolet Silverado EV

Fleet customers including for BrightDrop and the Chevrolet Silverado EV will benefit from the $7,500 commercial incentive.

By the end 2026 GM is committed to having installed 40,000 Level 2 Chargers across North America.

GM partners with car dealers to grow an EV charging network | Automotive News (autonews.com)

Then we have Chevrolet statement of the Equinox EV.

2024 Equinox EV: An Affordable, Functional and Stylish EV (chevrolet.com)

If the 1LT with 250 miles of battery pack sells for a starting price of $30,000 -$7,500 discount you have an EV with a price of $22,500 that is cheaper than the Bolt and a modern updated EV platform.

So, I see no reason why @smk4565 has an issue except for the fact that Mercedes has NOTHING that can compare to or compete with the Chevrolet EVs. On top of this, with the latest announcement with Samsung GM will by the end of the 2026 will have 160 GWh of battery capacity leading North America auto industry in battery production and this even includes Tesla.

General Motors and Samsung SDI Plan to Invest More than $3 Billion to Expand U.S. Battery Cell Manufacturing (gm.com)

At this point, if people want to bitch, they are going to bitch. GM is starting to ramp up and will be a very competitive force in the EV game.

I have no concerns about Tesla, the one that is to keep an eye on is Genesis, Hyundai and Kia.

[David]

Based on what GM is planning to deliver, by next year, they will have the largest North American Made EV fleet of any auto company. A growing charging infrastructure, yes Tesla is bigger at this.

Tesla has two types of public charging stations: Superchargers and Destination Chargers¹. Superchargers are fast-charging stations that can charge a Tesla in under an hour¹. Destination Chargers are slower but more widely available at hotels, restaurants, and other places¹. As of August 2022, Tesla operates 36,165 Superchargers in 3,971 stations worldwide². There are 1,621 stations in North America, with almost 1,200 in the US²³. There are also over 19,000 Destination Chargers in North America¹.

how many charging stations does tesla have - Search (bing.com)

For 2023 GM will have 6 EV options to buy compared to Tesla 4 options. Next year GM brings more online and Tesla still tends to average 3 to 5 years before delivery of new models with a very aged fleet of EVs.

Is there really any other auto company that is on par to compete with Tesla let along surpass them other than GM?

[smk4565]

GM will have a decent shot, as does Hyundai/Kia are doing well in EV’s. Hyundai doesn’t make much profit per car though as a company.  
 

I think Tesla is unstoppable though because all the other guys are still spending money on ICE products and Tesla isn’t and Tesla is ahead on full self drive (Mercedes is there with them tech wise) and I think Tesla will monetize full self driving better than others.  
 

Basically Tesla will go from 0.1% market share to 20% global market share from 2015 to 2035.  And the overall car market might shrink with self driving. But that 20% share comes at someone else’s expense so I think some car companies will be bankrupt and gone in 2035.

[surreal1272]

"I think Tesla is unstoppable though because all the other guys are still spending money on ICE products and Tesla isn’t and Tesla is ahead on full self drive"

 

Also Tesla:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/02/tesla-shareholder-suit-says-musk-and-co-lied-about-full-self-driving-safety/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/technology/tesla-autopilot-investigation.html

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/12/business/tesla-fsd-autopilot-lawsuit/index.html

 

But okay @smk4565. At least you still have your favorite brand and their awesome "up to 35MPH" self driving experience.

[ccap41]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:54 PM, David said:

I found 259 in a 1,390-mile radius of my zip code. 

Are you saying we're exactly 1,390 miles away from each other? I'm currently less than a mile from the Mississippi River.. Hahaha

[David]

23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Are you saying we're exactly 1,390 miles away from each other? I'm currently less than a mile from the Mississippi River.. Hahaha

Yup, we can meet some day in the Middle.

[ccap41]

33 minutes ago, David said:

Yup, we can meet some day in the Middle.

Hahaha DEAL! 

I was looking for a decent "shake on it" GIF and thought this was PERFECT for David The Giant(6' 6") and me The Short One(5' 8"). 🤣

[David]

30 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Hahaha DEAL! 

I was looking for a decent "shake on it" GIF and thought this was PERFECT for David The Giant(6' 6") and me The Short One(5' 8"). 🤣

[oldshurst442]

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The Short One(5' 8"). 🤣

Im shorter! 

So...this would be me?

 

No diapers though.  Im only 50.  I got at least another 30 years to go before the diapers come back on... 

[smk4565]

On 5/1/2023 at 7:40 AM, surreal1272 said:

"I think Tesla is unstoppable though because all the other guys are still spending money on ICE products and Tesla isn’t and Tesla is ahead on full self drive"

 

Also Tesla:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/02/tesla-shareholder-suit-says-musk-and-co-lied-about-full-self-driving-safety/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/technology/tesla-autopilot-investigation.html

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/12/business/tesla-fsd-autopilot-lawsuit/index.html

 

But okay @smk4565. At least you still have your favorite brand and their awesome "up to 35MPH" self driving experience.

Mercedes Drive Pilot is authorized for up to 40 mph, that is regulatory thing, not a system limitation.  The system can actually work at 130 km/h or 80 mph, so eventually it will get there.  

But a big difference is Tesla is going to monetize self driving better with fleets I suspect, because Tesla's target is not Mercedes, it is volume brands like VW, Toyota and GM and the commercial markets.  And Tesla can then basically sell the cars at $0 profit because they will make money on FSD and they also operate the largest charge network.  And if Tesla doesn't need to turn a profit on the car, they can substantially undercut others on price.  

 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes Drive Pilot is authorized for up to 40 mph, that is regulatory thing, not a system limitation.  The system can actually work at 130 km/h or 80 mph, so eventually it will get there.  

Way to miss the joke there. Way to also sidestep the current situation to inject your "analysis" which is completely devoid of the current circumstances. Elon would be proud of such deflection.

[David]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes Drive Pilot is authorized for up to 40 mph, that is regulatory thing, not a system limitation.  The system can actually work at 130 km/h or 80 mph, so eventually it will get there.  

But a big difference is Tesla is going to monetize self driving better with fleets I suspect, because Tesla's target is not Mercedes, it is volume brands like VW, Toyota and GM and the commercial markets.  And Tesla can then basically sell the cars at $0 profit because they will make money on FSD and they also operate the largest charge network.  And if Tesla doesn't need to turn a profit on the car, they can substantially undercut others on price.  

 

WRONG WRONG WRONG, here is the actual regulations if you actually wanted to go with facts rather than delusional made-up crap.

NHTSA defines vehicle automation as having five levels:

No-Automation (Level 0): The driver is in complete and sole control of the primary vehicle controls – brake, steering, throttle, and motive power – at all times.

Function-specific Automation (Level 1): Automation at this level involves one or more specific control functions. Examples include electronic stability control or pre-charged brakes, where the vehicle automatically assists with braking to enable the driver to regain control of the vehicle or stop faster than possible by acting alone.

Combined Function Automation (Level 2): This level involves automation of at least two primary control functions designed to work in unison to relieve the driver of control of those functions.  An example of combined functions enabling a Level 2 system is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering. 

Limited Self-Driving Automation (Level 3): Vehicles at this level of automation enable the driver to cede full control of all safety-critical functions under certain traffic or environmental conditions and in those conditions to rely heavily on the vehicle to monitor for changes in those conditions requiring transition back to driver control. The driver is expected to be available for occasional control, but with sufficiently comfortable transition time.  The Google car is an example of limited self-driving automation.

Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4): The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.

Click here to view NHTSA’s statement of policy on automated vehicles.

U.S. Department of Transportation Releases Policy on Automated Vehicle Development | US Department of Transportation

Based on this information from the actual NHTSA that regulates the self-driving, it is clear MERCEDES is NOT Comfortable with allowing their auto's to self-drive and as such have limited them to their own SELF-CERTIFIED driving limits now at 40 mph, earlier last year was 30 MPH which even you quoted then.

California and Nevada have also been the only states to accept their self-certified testing of their driving system.

Mercedes Shows Off Real, Live Level-3 System You Can Buy (autoweek.com)

Plenty of stories like above, but it is not a Government limit on the speed thing.

[smk4565]

That Level 3 availability and speed max will go up over the next couple years.  All these systems start small and roll out.

But I think Mercedes level 3 is more about being a luxury feature, where as Tesla wants to make full self driving cars so they can basically replace Uber and Lyft, taxis, some public transport, etc.  

And as far as the Bolt goes, it is still cheaper than the Equinox EV's alleged price, and GM is still going to need to make an EV for people that don't want an SUV.  So either need a next-gen Bolt or an EV Malibu or some type of car.  Unless the plan is to make the Equinox the base model GM product and focus on mid-size and full size SUVs and pick up trucks.  

[David]

32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That Level 3 availability and speed max will go up over the next couple years.  All these systems start small and roll out.

But I think Mercedes level 3 is more about being a luxury feature, where as Tesla wants to make full self driving cars so they can basically replace Uber and Lyft, taxis, some public transport, etc.  

And as far as the Bolt goes, it is still cheaper than the Equinox EV's alleged price, and GM is still going to need to make an EV for people that don't want an SUV.  So either need a next-gen Bolt or an EV Malibu or some type of car.  Unless the plan is to make the Equinox the base model GM product and focus on mid-size and full size SUVs and pick up trucks.  

So now that you have been given the facts you divert by trying to say it is something else and then dive back into the original topic.

Yes from an MSRP standpoint, the Bolt is cheaper than the Equinox, but it is old technology and GM is wanting to move forward. 

As I have quoted, when you research the average selling prices, the Bolt is higher than the MSRP starting price of the Equinox. So from a common sense marketing standpoint the Equinox at starting MSRP minus the $7,500 is cheaper than the current average for the Bolt.

Yet I have also posted here links where GM is clearly working with their large Brazil division to not only make sure all EVs are Global in nature, but clearly shows that once the Brazil team gets a firm grasp of the Equinox, they will probably be the ones to build a sub-compact global EV and have that sold across the globe including the U.S. or GM could have their Korean Division as they are also per the posts I have made earlier working on the Equinox too and in the past the Korean Team has built many of GMs Sub-compact auto's for the U.S. market and other markets.

At the rate GM is going with building and expanding their EV portfolio and based on Tesla's track record of 3 to 5 years when they finally announce a new product before it hits the market, there is a good chance that GM will have a Cheap Sub-compact EV out before Tesla does.

In regards to your comment about VW not surviving compared to Tesla or Mercedes, that is not happening as just today as I posted here:

I am seeing ID.4 and ID.5 everywhere now, they are becoming very common as are many other EVs. Rivian, Tesla and VW I see all over the place in addition to the Chevrolet Bolt / EUV.

[oldshurst442]

California has banned Tesla from calling their auto-pilot system as full self-driving.  In effect in 2023.

https://insideevs.com/news/628539/california-bans-tesla-from-marketing-its-evs-as-full-self-driving/

 

Mercedes' system or even GM's,  aint self driving let alone Telsa's and Rivian's and any other company that have dipped their stupid little toes in the waters like Google and Waymo.   They require human awareness.  Because the technology is far far far...FAR from being reliable.  For many many many...many many many...many MANY many...MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANy MANY...MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY (catch my breath) MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY reasons...

I dont know why we keep on mentioning self driving.  

Its a DEAD technology.    Supercruise and whatever Mercedes calls theirs along with Tesla's is..just a super intelligent cruise control thing.  Sure hands off could be had for a few seconds for  a maxed speed of who gives a shyte speed, WHEN the hands off accidents WILL continue to happen whether it be Tesla or GM or Mercedes because of fools NOT paying attenton to the road, eventually the litigious populace with the foaming at the mouth for money lawers WILL shut this shyte down.  And I personally give it another 5 years.  

Right now...its only Tesla that kills people with this shyte.  Just wait when GM and Mercedes get in on the action with the idiot driver self driving his stupid car killing people and see how fast thus shyte will cease to exist with the litigious populace and foaming at the mouth lawyers.. 

 Just my opinion.      But it will happen as I say. 

Edited May 3 by oldshurst442