GM Ending Production of Bolt EV, EUV Models

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

California has banned Tesla from calling their auto-pilot system as full self-driving.  In effect in 2023.

https://insideevs.com/news/628539/california-bans-tesla-from-marketing-its-evs-as-full-self-driving/

 

Mercedes' system or even GM's,  aint self driving let alone Telsa's and Rivian's and any other company that have dipped their stupid little toes in the waters like Google and Waymo.   They require human awareness.  Because the technology is far far far...FAR from being reliable.  For many many many...many many many...many MANY many...MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANy MANY...MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY (catch my breath) MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY reasons...

I dont know why we keep on mentioning self driving.  

Its a DEAD technology.    Supercruise and whatever Mercedes calls theirs along with Tesla's is..just a super intelligent cruise control thing.  Sure hands off could be had for a few seconds for  a maxed speed of who gives a shyte speed, WHEN the hands off accidents WILL continue to happen whether it be Tesla or GM or Mercedes because of fools NOT paying attenton to the road, eventually the litigious populace with the foaming at the mouth for money lawers WILL shut this shyte down.  And I personally give it another 5 years.  

Right now...its only Tesla that kills people with this shyte.  Just wait when GM and Mercedes get in on the action with the idiot driver self driving his stupid car killing people and see how fast thus shyte will cease to exist with the litigious populace and foaming at the mouth lawyers.. 

 Just my opinion.      But it will happen as I say. 

There were over 42,000 traffic deaths in the USA each of the last 2 years.  Human error, drunk drivers, drivers on phones, falling asleep, etc is what causes I would imagine 97% of this, maybe 2.5% for freak weather incidents, like tornado hitting a car or flood, and less than .1% mechanical failures.  Self driving cars would be far safer than humans driving cars.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, David said:

So now that you have been given the facts you divert by trying to say it is something else and then dive back into the original topic.

Yes from an MSRP standpoint, the Bolt is cheaper than the Equinox, but it is old technology and GM is wanting to move forward. 

As I have quoted, when you research the average selling prices, the Bolt is higher than the MSRP starting price of the Equinox. So from a common sense marketing standpoint the Equinox at starting MSRP minus the $7,500 is cheaper than the current average for the Bolt.

Yet I have also posted here links where GM is clearly working with their large Brazil division to not only make sure all EVs are Global in nature, but clearly shows that once the Brazil team gets a firm grasp of the Equinox, they will probably be the ones to build a sub-compact global EV and have that sold across the globe including the U.S. or GM could have their Korean Division as they are also per the posts I have made earlier working on the Equinox too and in the past the Korean Team has built many of GMs Sub-compact auto's for the U.S. market and other markets.

At the rate GM is going with building and expanding their EV portfolio and based on Tesla's track record of 3 to 5 years when they finally announce a new product before it hits the market, there is a good chance that GM will have a Cheap Sub-compact EV out before Tesla does.

In regards to your comment about VW not surviving compared to Tesla or Mercedes, that is not happening as just today as I posted here:

I am seeing ID.4 and ID.5 everywhere now, they are becoming very common as are many other EVs. Rivian, Tesla and VW I see all over the place in addition to the Chevrolet Bolt / EUV.

I think GM and VW will be okay, maybe less than today (with losses mostly coming in China) but there is a good chance VW and GM will still be top 5 car companies by volume in 10 years.  Tesla, BYD and Toyota making the other top 5, although Hyundai/Kia could knock GM or VW out of that top 5.  But it might also be Tesla, BYD and a distant 3rd place to Toyota or VW.

The companies that need to worry are the ones like Renault/Nissan, Stellantis, Honda, Subaru, Mazda, JLR.  Most of those don't have luxury business except for JLR which has dying sales, so there aren't big profit margin cars, they don't have the high end brands like Mercedes and BMW that do volume, and they are all behind on EV.  And legacy OEMs have a lot of overhead, if sales drop off 25-30% most of those factories start running at a loss.

[oldshurst442]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Self driving cars would be far safer than humans driving cars.

In a utopian world.  Id agree with you.

You are an insurance guy, amirite?

Id like to know what percentage of car accidents involve cars and trucks that have been maintained poorly?

Look at this:

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Human error, drunk drivers, drivers on phones, falling asleep, etc is what causes I would imagine 97% of this, maybe 2.5% for freak weather incidents, like tornado hitting a car or flood, and less than .1% mechanical failures.  

 

You did mention .1% in mechanical failure... But no insurance company calculates what percentage of cars speeding and failing due to poor maintenance.  Or in the human error part, how many cars could have performed better in accident avoidance but didnt because that lack of proper maintenance in brakes? Old tires that dont do the friction thing good because tires are bald?    The steering and suspension not making the car turn fast enough because loose steering?  

Now imagine all those radar and lidar and sensors on a whatever year old piece of shyte that has been neglected and the driver relying on the computer to do the self driving thing...    

NOBODY talks about that.

NOBODY.

The aviation industry in the Western world has implented all KINDS of strict maintenance mandates on Western airlines that these airlines HAVE to meet.    

There is NOTHING being talked about maintenance regs on cars today.  Even less for car of the future that will rely even more on electronics that seem to fail faster and easier than the old cars of just 30 years ago.   Emmssions yes.  But MOST states and provinces do NOT get shyte boxes off our roads.   

How many 8 year old Mercedes Benzes and BMWs and all other luxury cars have their idiot lights on and the owners of these cars, becuae they like to flaunt luxury dont actually repair their cars because its too expensive?

And how many of THOSE cars are involved in accidents and cause death BECAUSE their systems dont drive properly and accurately?   

A NEW Mercedes with brand NEW brakes and tires brakes at a certain distance.

A Mercedes with JOBBER brakes and bald tires do NOT brake at that same distance. And even with JOBBER brakes, the brakes are in bad condition...       

Again...equate THAT scenario with self driving electronics on a poorly maintained vehicle and get back to me...

And THAT rant...is ASSUMING that the technology actually works flawlessly to begin with brand new.

The technology is waaaaaaaaay far away from us to actually experience true self driving. And Im afraid we never will. 

 

I talked about the aviation industry.

Self driving has been a thing in that industry for 50 years.  Only in the last 15 do airplanes land themselves.  But even with that, pilots actually land...  Flying is on a closed circuit.   Driving is happening on an open circuit.   THAT in itself poses lots of problems. 

But back to the maintenance thing.    Airplanes get overhauled.   Cars never do.   In the aviation industry, its forced upon the airlines.  In the car indusrtry, NOTHING is mandated for the owner to maintain his vehicle.   

THAT should be an eye opener for you.  ESPECIALLY in the kind of profession you do...

But yeah, keep believing that self driving is a saviour to us...  LOL

 

 

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, David said:

So now that you have been given the facts you divert by trying to say it is something else and then dive back into the original topic.

Honestly, why bother with his bar moving nonsense?

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Self driving cars would be far safer than humans driving cars.

According to...?

 

I say to look at the issues ALREADY present with self driving tech (again, several articles detailing this on the previous page). Your utopian view clearly does not into line up with reality. It's that simple.

[oldshurst442]

When I mentioned JOBBER brakes....   I didnt mean the company JOBBER.   I meant automotive parts that are not OEM parts.   Although the company Jobber could very well be a target of my accusation easily...

I mentioned Mercedes when talking about brakes.   I used Mercedes as an example because despite what I usually say about Mercedes, their automobiles are engineered a certain way.  A way that appears to be of a superior quality of certain other lesser OEMS.  And they DO perform at higher standards.   BUT....in order for those performance metrics to be replicated,  original Mercedes parts, or better,  HAVE to be replaced when the parts need replacement.   BUT...those parts are expensive.   MOST of the USED Mercedes Benzes on the road, Im willing to bet my life's savings, is that original brakes, ball joints etc are of the cheap alternative.  On top of all that, even THOSE alternative parts, when THOSE need to be replaced, they do NOT get replaced when its time and needed because users of automobiles are cheap, lazy and over extended with other consumer consumption trinkets and...car repairs are NOT on their priority list AND even WITH cheaper alternative parts, automobile maintenance is expensive AF. 

And the second part of my rant explaining the first part is as authentic as it gets.  Its real.  Its not a figment of my imagination trying to poo poo on self driving. 

Actually, the pushers and wanters of self driving vehicles are the ones that are delusional and living in a fantasy world lying to themselves about the utopia of computers saving ourselves from ourselves.  

Edited May 3 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

In a utopian world.  Id agree with you.

You are an insurance guy, amirite?

Id like to know what percentage of car accidents involve cars and trucks that have been maintained poorly?

Look at this:

 

You did mention .1% in mechanical failure... But no insurance company calculates what percentage of cars speeding and failing due to poor maintenance.  Or in the human error part, how many cars could have performed better in accident avoidance but didnt because that lack of proper maintenance in brakes? Old tires that dont do the friction thing good because tires are bald?    The steering and suspension not making the car turn fast enough because loose steering?  

Now imagine all those radar and lidar and sensors on a whatever year old piece of shyte that has been neglected and the driver relying on the computer to do the self driving thing...    

NOBODY talks about that.

NOBODY.

The aviation industry in the Western world has implented all KINDS of strict maintenance mandates on Western airlines that these airlines HAVE to meet.    

There is NOTHING being talked about maintenance regs on cars today.  Even less for car of the future that will rely even more on electronics that seem to fail faster and easier than the old cars of just 30 years ago.   Emmssions yes.  But MOST states and provinces do NOT get shyte boxes off our roads.   

How many 8 year old Mercedes Benzes and BMWs and all other luxury cars have their idiot lights on and the owners of these cars, becuae they like to flaunt luxury dont actually repair their cars because its too expensive?

And how many of THOSE cars are involved in accidents and cause death BECAUSE their systems dont drive properly and accurately?   

A NEW Mercedes with brand NEW brakes and tires brakes at a certain distance.

A Mercedes with JOBBER brakes and bald tires do NOT brake at that same distance. And even with JOBBER brakes, the brakes are in bad condition...       

Again...equate THAT scenario with self driving electronics on a poorly maintained vehicle and get back to me...

And THAT rant...is ASSUMING that the technology actually works flawlessly to begin with brand new.

The technology is waaaaaaaaay far away from us to actually experience true self driving. And Im afraid we never will. 

 

I talked about the aviation industry.

Self driving has been a thing in that industry for 50 years.  Only in the last 15 do airplanes land themselves.  But even with that, pilots actually land...  Flying is on a closed circuit.   Driving is happening on an open circuit.   THAT in itself poses lots of problems. 

But back to the maintenance thing.    Airplanes get overhauled.   Cars never do.   In the aviation industry, its forced upon the airlines.  In the car indusrtry, NOTHING is mandated for the owner to maintain his vehicle.   

THAT should be an eye opener for you.  ESPECIALLY in the kind of profession you do...

But yeah, keep believing that self driving is a saviour to us...  LOL

 

 

I am an insurance estimator yes.  I'd say 25% of what I see are single vehicle accidents, and maybe split that in half for hitting a deer or animal and half just driver error, hitting fixed object or parked car or something.  And the other 75% are the 2 or more vehicle accidents, rear end, intersection, left turn, etc.  

And yes I do see cars with crap tires, but it is more the exception than the rule and I don't measure their brakes.   Maintenance could play a factor in some accident avoidance, but that would be hard to measure.  I also live in PA that has state inspections, so if your brakes or tires fall below 30% it doesn't pass, if you have a check engine light on, it doesn't pass.  In states with no inspections or rules, probably is a different story.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Maintenance could play a factor in some accident avoidance, but that would be hard to measure.

Maintenance DOES play a factor.  In ALL accidents.   Accident avoidance is probably the sole criteria a driver has 100% control over.  And maintenance is a huge part of that factor.  One could practice defensive driving (an important part of accident avoidance) and be 100% aware of his/her surroundings (another huge part of accident avoidance) but if the car he/she is driving isnt maintained properly, all the controls that steer and accelerate and brake the car cant do the thing that those parts are designed to do and well, accident is NOT avoided.    

Even if speeding is being done with a car that can handle the high speeds, even if the roads are not ideal for high speeds,  a properly maintenance vehicle meant for high speeds COULD POSSIBLY avoid an accident. Maybe.   But a poorly maintained vehicle in the same situation with the same type of vehilce that can handle high speeds WILL NOT avoid the accident because the systems are in fail mode from the get go.  Physics and all other hazards being equal and not counted  in my rant as OBVIUOSLY speeding on public roads is a disaster in the making,  Im saying that a vehicle NOT maintained the way it should WILL fail adding another hazard to the many other hazards...

But yeah...I agree with you, it WOULD be very hard to measure.

BUT...we (as in society) could bypass all those  equations of what percentages of lack of maintenance equate to by implementing on what PA does and owners would actually repair their vehicles and garages would actually repair cars and not try to cut corners (either to rip off their customer or by customer's demant to by pass) just to get the car barely to pass the tests.   State inspections SHOULD be a thing across ALL of North America.

In Quebec, I think our politicians are pushing for it.  But its not law yet.  

Paul Walker's (and the driver Rodas)  death and was said to be because the Porsche Carerra GT had old tires and could not grip the road properly losing traction and losing control and crashing into the tree.  Sure the high speeds were a factor.  Maybe the road had some slickiness to it as it might have rained earlier and the oil residue of just being there because roads are usually greasy all the time but rain or dew brings out that greasiness to the surface.   But...IF the tires were not expired, maybe just maybe, the car  might have gripped and the corrections being made to avoid the curb would have been made and curb and tree avoided.   maybe.  

But even millionnaire owners like Rodas and Walker skimp on little things like tires.  And they might skimp on tires because Porsche Carerra GT tires are expensive AF.   

 

[David]

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Maintenance DOES play a factor.  In ALL accidents.   Accident avoidance is probably the sole criteria a driver has 100% control over.  And maintenance is a huge part of that factor.  One could practice defensive driving (an important part of accident avoidance) and be 100% aware of his/her surroundings (another huge part of accident avoidance) but if the car he/she is driving isn't maintained properly, all the controls that steer and accelerate and brake the car can't do the thing that those parts are designed to do and well, accident is NOT avoided.    

Even if speeding is being done with a car that can handle the high speeds, even if the roads are not ideal for high speeds, a properly maintenance vehicle meant for high speeds COULD POSSIBLY avoid an accident. Maybe.   But a poorly maintained vehicle in the same situation with the same type of vehicle that can handle high speeds WILL NOT avoid the accident because the systems are in fail mode from the get-go.  Physics and all other hazards being equal and not counted in my rant as OBVIUOSLY speeding on public roads is a disaster in the making, I'm saying that a vehicle NOT maintained the way it should WILL fail adding another hazard to the many other hazards...

But yeah...I agree with you, it WOULD be very hard to measure.

BUT...we (as in society) could bypass all those equations of what percentages of lack of maintenance equate to by implementing on what PA does and owners would actually repair their vehicles and garages would actually repair cars and not try to cut corners (either to rip off their customer or by customer's demand to bypass) just to get the car barely to pass the tests.   State inspections SHOULD be a thing across ALL of North America.

In Quebec, I think our politicians are pushing for it.  But its not law yet.  

Paul Walker's (and the driver Rodas) death and was said to be because the Porsche Carrera GT had old tires and could not grip the road properly losing traction and losing control and crashing into the tree.  Sure the high speeds were a factor.  Maybe the road had some slickness to it as it might have rained earlier and the oil residue of just being there because roads are usually greasy all the time, but rain or dew brings out that greasiness to the surface.   But...IF the tires were not expired, maybe just maybe, the car might have gripped, and the corrections being made to avoid the curb would have been made and curb and tree avoided.   maybe.  

But even millionaire owners like Rodas and Walker skimp on little things like tires.  And they might skimp on tires because Porsche Carrera GT tires are expensive AF.   

 

Totally agree with you.

Driving is a Privilege earned and not a Right!!!

As such, part of auto ownership is proper maintenance and that can very well include 3rd party parts that meet OEM specification. 

The big problem I see is not holding auto owners to their responsibilities of auto maintenance.

Washington State at the start of the Pandemic finally closed down all their emission testing stations. I believe they should re-open them not as emission testing, but as safety check stations if they do not want to hold mechanic shops accountable for doing safety inspections. 

This should be a Federal Government standard that is held across all the U.S. states to ensure that lights are all working, that damage to an auto, especially missing bumpers is properly repaired, etc. I see to many autos especially from southern states that are not repaired. 

Part of this is to stop paying the cash directly to individuals who then spend it on other things rather than fix their auto. The payments especially from accidents should be paid to the auto repair shop.

Again, not everyone will agree with me, but driving is a privilege earned not a right and as such, auto ownership should be held to a higher standard of safety as you are driving a machine that is capable of easily killing others.

[David]

BOLT / BOLT EUV of Subject I have seen many more stories on the ending of a very popular EV selling for Chevrolet / GM and it has been made very clear by GM that they are going to ensure that the Equinox starting at $30,000 will have a nicely featured auto and that Brazil and Korea will now play a critical role in developing Ultium EVs that are in the compact to sub-compact level for the global market which means we have not seen the lowest priced EV based on Ultium platform yet.

@oldshurst442 @smk4565 @trinacriabob @NINETY EIGHT REGENCY @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @Drew Dowdell @ccap41 @regfootball

To remind Folks as memories can be short with all the stories out there, but February 4th, 2022 Mary Barra CEO of GM stated that a replacement to the Bolt that would slot in below the Equinox will come out as a sub- $30,000 EV replacement that is based on the Ultium Platform rather than the old tech of the Bolt product line.

GM planning a sub-$30,000 Ultium-based EV below the Equinox EV - Autoblog

QUOTE:

Barra took a dig at startup EV automakers (Tesla, Lucid, Rivian, et al) and threw the Bolt under a GM Cruise autonomous taxi when she said, "The efficiencies created by the Ultium platform are a key reason why we will be able to deliver truly affordable EVs like the Equinox. Affordable EVs are part of the market that start-ups aren't targeting, but they are key to driving mass adoption of EVs, which is a national and a global priority. That's why we plan to follow the Equinox with an even more affordable EV."

[surreal1272]

10 minutes ago, David said:

I see to many autos especially from southern states that are not repaired. 

You can add the desert southwest to that list as well.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Bolt was "micro-USB" while the rest of the company has moved on to "USB-C".

They'll put something new in that space with the new technology.  I just hope it looks less dorky.

[Robert Hall]

Maybe a Trax EV as their entry level EV... I could see that fitting w/ the Equinox EV and Blazer EV.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Will We Ever Get Chinese EVs in the U.S.?

https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a43772942/will-we-ever-get-chinese-evs-in-the-us/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_aut&utm_medium=email&date=050423&utm_campaign=nl31377002&user_email=c6e26c0d721b3ed914b0951dad8a6e100c8ea63f2db2d5f71f3e0e89d6d24ed2&GID=c6e26c0d721b3ed914b0951dad8a6e100c8ea63f2db2d5f71f3e0e89d6d24ed2&utm_term=TEST- NEW TEST - Sending List - AM 180D Clicks%2C NON AM 90D Opens%2C Both Subbed Last 30D

[Robert Hall]

I'd assume there will be Chinese Buick EVs here sooner or later...

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Maybe a Trax EV as their entry level EV... I could see that fitting w/ the Equinox EV and Blazer EV.

That could work, they have to have something under the Equinox because Tesla will make a sub $30k car.

[Drew Dowdell]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That could work, they have to have something under the Equinox because Tesla will make a sub $30k car.

No they won't. Elon has missed all of his goals of hitting every "sub-$XX" goal he has promised, and in the rare instances it was offered on the website, the price was quickly raised and they built expensive ones instead.

34 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I'd assume there will be Chinese Buick EVs here sooner or later...

They'll be American built because of the way the tax incentives are structured.

[David]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That could work, they have to have something under the Equinox because Tesla will make a sub $30k car.

Right now Musk track record sucks at delivering anything on time let alone at a low price. Right now even his vaulted Cybertruck has been removed from the main website and you have to go through submenus to get to the website now.

Cybertruck | Tesla

With this, they have removed all information of the base model through the 4-motor top end model and pricing. 

At this point, it would seem to be that as Musk did state at Investors Day that the Cybertruck would start at the high end of 6 figures before moving down to lower price options. So I would HIGHLY DOUBT he will deliver on a $39,900 starting priced EV Truck.

This makes the ability to have even a Sub $30,000 EV from Tesla a doubtful auto delivered anytime soon.

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No they won't. Elon has missed all of his goals of hitting every "sub-$XX" goal he has promised, and in the rare instances it was offered on the website, the price was quickly raised and they built expensive ones instead.

It's gets a little tiring explain those simple facts to him...over and over again because he continues to act like they will ever do what he says they are going to do. Just like the Cybertruck nonsense. 

[ccap41]

32 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No they won't. Elon has missed all of his goals of hitting every "sub-$XX" goal he has promised, and in the rare instances it was offered on the website, the price was quickly raised and they built expensive ones instead.

YUP. I think the Model 3 was only a 35k car for 5 months. 

[Drew Dowdell]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

YUP. I think the Model 3 was only a 35k car for 5 months. 

If you could even get one made that way.

[David]

16 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

YUP. I think the Model 3 was only a 35k car for 5 months. 

 

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

If you could even get one made that way.

I just finished a search and so far have not found any base Model 3 produced. I would highly doubt Tesla ever honored those cars. I know of two people here in Seattle that wanted the base Tesla 3 and finally after a few years canceled their reservations and went with Hybrids. Tesla had a Tesla 3 standard range with reduce software locked battery capacity, but even Forbes states that https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2021/05/23/with-the-low-cost-35000-tesla-model-3-gone-price-creeps-up This was a $38,000 auto that Tesla was not happy even selling and once they yanked the option on the website the price immediately went up on the standard to $39,900. As such it would appear that Tesla never really honored the $35,000 base model or built any.

[smk4565]

And yet the Tesla Model Y is the #1 selling vehicle in China in 2023, #1 selling vehicle in Europe in 2023 and estimated that it is outselling the RAV4 for #1 selling SUV in the USA in 2023.   Model Y will be the #1 selling car in the world in 2023.  
 

And Tesla is planning a smaller cheaper vehicle to add to the line up.  That should at least double Model Y sales.  They are way out in front.  
 

The only thing up for debate is how much market share is each legacy OEM going to lose when Tesla gets to 20 million units per year.  

[David]

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And yet the Tesla Model Y is the #1 selling vehicle in China in 2023, #1 selling vehicle in Europe in 2023 and estimated that it is outselling the RAV4 for #1 selling SUV in the USA in 2023.   Model Y will be the #1 selling car in the world in 2023.  
 

And Tesla is planning a smaller cheaper vehicle to add to the line up.  That should at least double Model Y sales.  They are way out in front.  
 

The only thing up for debate is how much market share is each legacy OEM going to lose when Tesla gets to 20 million units per year.  

WOW, Europe and China are younger markets than Northa America. Musk is a polarizing figure that is driving people away as better EV options are hitting the market. 

Ford has lowered their Mach-e prices again to compete and the Mach-e is rated better than a Tesla Y.

I can promise you we will revisit this at the end of the year to see if the Tesla Y is the best selling SUV or not. Right now, I would not bet all my eggs in one basket with that. If Tesla does take top sales crown great, but they are living on borrowed time as better options, better managed and EV produced options are coming.

Tesla is not going to EVER hit 20 million EVs a year as long as Musk is CEO. WHY, easy Musk is the problem, quality of their builds is the second problem and third, Legacy OEMs are going to be catching up and surpassing Tesla. 

GM is already by the end of this year to be equal to if not pass Tesla in Battery Cell production and by the end of 2024 will be leading as the GM/Samsung battery cell plants come online. Tesla has strong head winds hitting them now and they will only get stronger moving forward.

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, David said:

WOW, Europe and China are younger markets than Northa America. Musk is a polarizing figure that is driving people away as better EV options are hitting the market. 

Ford has lowered their Mach-e prices again to compete and the Mach-e is rated better than a Tesla Y.

I can promise you we will revisit this at the end of the year to see if the Tesla Y is the best selling SUV or not. Right now, I would not bet all my eggs in one basket with that. If Tesla does take top sales crown great, but they are living on borrowed time as better options, better managed and EV produced options are coming.

Tesla is not going to EVER hit 20 million EVs a year as long as Musk is CEO. WHY, easy Musk is the problem, quality of their builds is the second problem and third, Legacy OEMs are going to be catching up and surpassing Tesla. 

GM is already by the end of this year to be equal to if not pass Tesla in Battery Cell production and by the end of 2024 will be leading as the GM/Samsung battery cell plants come online. Tesla has strong head winds hitting them now and they will only get stronger moving forward.

What better options?  The other guys don't have the range, performance, charge network, or software that Tesla has.  

Ford lost $60,000 on every Mach-E sold in Q1, and they had to lower the price because they have a 123 day supply on dealer lots.  They had to cut the price to get closer to the Model Y, and they just lost $3,750 worth of tax credit on it.  The Mach-E GT is still $5k more than the Model Y performance, and after tax credit it is $8750 more. 

GM can't scale either, they sold 2 Hummer EV's last quarter.  Tesla is still scaling up faster than GM or Ford are, thus GM and Ford aren't going to catch up.  GM I think will do better than Ford since they are planning way more models, where as Ford doesn't seem to have much in the pipeline.   And the Equinox is the big one for GM, because they are starting with $100k Hummers, Silverados and Sierras, at a time when full size trucks are piling up on dealer lots, and Cadillacs.   The expensive stuff doesn't give you scale or volume, the Equinox has to make that happen and that is really their most important product.  

The Blazer EV undercuts the base Model Y by about $3k, but it has less range.  The Blazer SS is $10k more than a Model Y Performance and is slower with less range.  The car is already behind a 4 year old Model Y.  And rumor is the Model 3 gets a big upgrade this year, Model Y next year. 

Edited May 4 by smk4565

[David]

Looking at the market, EVs are still making up a small percentage of the market, 7.2% to be exact for Q1 2023 in the U.S. https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q1-2023-ev-sales/

EV sales in the U.S. jumped 44.6% for Q1 2023 making the U.S. on track to surpass 1 million EV sales for the year.

Q1 for Tesla was helped in large part by Sizable price cuts. Tesla was up 24.6% for the quarter over the previous year. Yet their market share had dropped significantly to only 62.4% in Q1. Overall, Tesla for 2022 had a 64.2% market share but that is a huge drop from their 79% market share in the previous year.

Tesla has an image problem, Tesla CEO has made their product line polarizing and as such this will make it harder for Tesla in the U.S. to exceed the Legacy OEMs long term.

China and Europe are young markets for Tesla compared to North America. As such, growth there will be stronger than here.

So lets look at the #s for the EV market. Yes Tesla leads over all in EV sales right now. But when broken down by model we see the Tesla Y is a 95,362 SUV sales for the 2022 model year.

2023 U.S. Auto Sales Figures by Brand | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

No let's compare sales figures by brand for a better look.

Now to break this down by SUV sales. YES Tesla won for the first quarter of 2023, but 1 quarter does not make a trend. Looking at 2022 you can see that the RAV4, Jeep GC, Highlander, CR-V and Equinox beat Tesla Y. Toyota alone has two models that beat individually and combined the Y. 2023 US SUV Sales Figures by Model | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

If we look at Q1 2023 by Brand, Tesla has a ways to go here in the U.S.

Kelley-Blue-Book-EV-Sales-and-Data-Report-for-Q1-2023.pdf