GM Ending Production of Bolt EV, EUV Models

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

What better options?  The other guys don't have the range, performance, charge network, or software that Tesla has.  

Ford lost $60,000 on every Mach-E sold in Q1, and they had to lower the price because they have a 123 day supply on dealer lots.  They had to cut the price to get closer to the Model Y, and they just lost $3,750 worth of tax credit on it.  The Mach-E GT is still $5k more than the Model Y performance, and after tax credit it is $8750 more. 

GM can't scale either, they sold 2 Hummer EV's last quarter.  Tesla is still scaling up faster than GM or Ford are, thus GM and Ford aren't going to catch up.  GM I think will do better than Ford since they are planning way more models, where as Ford doesn't seem to have much in the pipeline.   And the Equinox is the big one for GM, because they are starting with $100k Hummers, Silverados and Sierras, at a time when full size trucks are piling up on dealer lots, and Cadillacs.   The expensive stuff doesn't give you scale or volume, the Equinox has to make that happen and that is really their most important product.  

The Blazer EV undercuts the base Model Y by about $3k, but it has less range.  The Blazer SS is $10k more than a Model Y Performance and is slower with less range.  The car is already behind a 4 year old Model Y.  And rumor is the Model 3 gets a big upgrade this year, Model Y next year. 

You continue to compare apples to oranges and FAIL to understand basic business or losses and eventual profits. I am sure since you quoted $60K that you read this story which is the only one I saw that says what you posted.

Ford Model E Division Lost $60K on Every Electric Vehicle They Sold in Q1 2023 - autoevolution

Yet lets take a look at Tesla, For 2020 Tesla LOST MONEY on every EV they built and sold, S, X, Y and 3. Everyone one lost money. Tesla Loses Money On Every Single Car: Here's Where The Profit Hides (motorbiscuit.com)

So based on your viewpoint then Tesla should have failed, closed up their doors and gone out of business.

CNN Business did a review of the History of Tesla and this is what they found: 

Tesla was unprofitable for years, but now it's poised to become a powerhouse | CNN Business

Up through 2020, Tesla lost money right and left. Pretty much 20 years of steady money loosing sales. Yet they finally slimed out a profit in 2021, 2022 and are expected to have a profit for 2023 but much thinner than in the past due to price cuts that are expected to eat into profits as Tesla attempts to stop the reduction in market share. 

Good Luck Tesla as with all things, as more and more EVs come to market, more and more folks will turn to choices over Tesla.

GM is scalling up and with the various EVs coming to market this year and the fact that they will equal if not possibly exceed Tesla in Battery Cell production, equals more EVs. Next year, GM is projected to lead the auto industry here in North America in Battery cell production. GM will have cheaper EVs than Tesla and as has been predicted, low cost EVs will deliver what the population is asking for to move to lower maintenance EVs.

GM has a lower average day of products on their lots than everyone else. So where do you get that the Hummers, Silverado's and Sierras are piling up on dealership lots?

In regard to you statement about Blazer EV being cheaper but less range. Y is only available in an AWD version now, there is no RWD version and as such, they ordering page has made it very clear that the Y also only comes with the long range battery pack that in performance mode drops to 303 miles. Yet Tesla has no cheaper version when they could if they build the RWD version.

Chevrolet will have that RWD versions that are cheaper and perfect for southern states. Tesla has chosen to take away options and only make more expensive models. Limited choices by Tesla, Expanded choices by GM. This is going to be a battle that will show you that Tesla days are numbered for being the EV king.

[smk4565]

13 minutes ago, David said:

Looking at the market, EVs are still making up a small percentage of the market, 7.2% to be exact for Q1 2023 in the U.S. https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q1-2023-ev-sales/

EV sales in the U.S. jumped 44.6% for Q1 2023 making the U.S. on track to surpass 1 million EV sales for the year.

Q1 for Tesla was helped in large part by Sizable price cuts. Tesla was up 24.6% for the quarter over the previous year. Yet their market share had dropped significantly to only 62.4% in Q1. Overall, Tesla for 2022 had a 64.2% market share but that is a huge drop from their 79% market share in the previous year.

Tesla has an image problem, Tesla CEO has made their product line polarizing and as such this will make it harder for Tesla in the U.S. to exceed the Legacy OEMs long term.

China and Europe are young markets for Tesla compared to North America. As such, growth there will be stronger than here.

So lets look at the #s for the EV market. Yes Tesla leads over all in EV sales right now. But when broken down by model we see the Tesla Y is a 95,362 SUV sales for the 2022 model year.

2023 U.S. Auto Sales Figures by Brand | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

No let's compare sales figures by brand for a better look.

Now to break this down by SUV sales. YES Tesla won for the first quarter of 2023, but 1 quarter does not make a trend. Looking at 2022 you can see that the RAV4, Jeep GC, Highlander, CR-V and Equinox beat Tesla Y. Toyota alone has two models that beat individually and combined the Y. 2023 US SUV Sales Figures by Model | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

If we look at Q1 2023 by Brand, Tesla has a ways to go here in the U.S.

Kelley-Blue-Book-EV-Sales-and-Data-Report-for-Q1-2023.pdf 498.01 kB · 0 downloads

All those numbers show the rise of Tesla, they were like 1% market share a few years ago.  The Model Y outsold the Explorer (heavily fleeted) and the Bronco combined.  There is no world that exists where the Mach-E will outsell Bronco and Explorer combined.  Toyota and Stellantis are losing volume, Nissan is a mess in general.  

And that is just in the USA.  Tesla is dominating in China which is a bigger market than the US, and #1 selling car in Europe.

Tesla in just March sold more Model Y's in China than Jeep sold Grand Cherokee's in the USA.

March was a huge month for them, but for Q1, Tesla is still top 10 in China and if they put a couple more big months in or had a cheep car, they can climb this list.  And I don't see any GM, Ford or Stellantis anywhere in China's top 10 and GM isn't in Europe.

 

 

[David]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

All those numbers show the rise of Tesla, they were like 1% market share a few years ago.  The Model Y outsold the Explorer (heavily fleeted) and the Bronco combined.  There is no world that exists where the Mach-E will outsell Bronco and Explorer combined.  Toyota and Stellantis are losing volume, Nissan is a mess in general.  

And that is just in the USA.  Tesla is dominating in China which is a bigger market than the US, and #1 selling car in Europe.

Tesla in just March sold more Model Y's in China than Jeep sold Grand Cherokee's in the USA.

March was a huge month for them, but for Q1, Tesla is still top 10 in China and if they put a couple more big months in or had a cheep car, they can climb this list.  And I don't see any GM, Ford or Stellantis anywhere in China's top 10 and GM isn't in Europe.

 

 

Yet you deflect to try and use China to justify the poor performance in the U.S. Another APPLE TO ORANGE comparison.

Fine, here is how Tesla will fail when you see non-auto reviews talking up how superior other EVs are and in this case 8 Things I Learned Driving the Kia EV6 GT Electric SUV (businessinsider.com) Kia is kicking Tesla butt.

Yet fine lets look at your China Love chart. BYD has not surpassed Tesla yet in a single model but considering that BYD is nipping at Tesla's heals.

• BYD Qin Plus is an EV
• BYD Song is a Hybrid
• BYD Yuan Plus is an EV
• BYD Dolphin is an EV

Tesla has the Model Y and 3 in China for a total sales of 76,663 in EV sales.

BYD has Qin Plus, Yuan Plus and Dolphin for a total sales of 95,809 in EV sales. Add on the additional 40,114 Hybrid sales and clearly BYD is the Market EV leader.

Not everyone can afford or wants a Tesla. Per your own chart BYD is pulling away from Tesla and that market has NOTHING to do with the U.S. market.

[smk4565]

39 minutes ago, David said:

Yet you deflect to try and use China to justify the poor performance in the U.S. Another APPLE TO ORANGE comparison.

Fine, here is how Tesla will fail when you see non-auto reviews talking up how superior other EVs are and in this case 8 Things I Learned Driving the Kia EV6 GT Electric SUV (businessinsider.com) Kia is kicking Tesla butt.

Yet fine lets look at your China Love chart. BYD has not surpassed Tesla yet in a single model but considering that BYD is nipping at Tesla's heals.

• BYD Qin Plus is an EV
• BYD Song is a Hybrid
• BYD Yuan Plus is an EV
• BYD Dolphin is an EV

Tesla has the Model Y and 3 in China for a total sales of 76,663 in EV sales.

BYD has Qin Plus, Yuan Plus and Dolphin for a total sales of 95,809 in EV sales. Add on the additional 40,114 Hybrid sales and clearly BYD is the Market EV leader.

Not everyone can afford or wants a Tesla. Per your own chart BYD is pulling away from Tesla and that market has NOTHING to do with the U.S. market.

BYD is the biggest player in China and has cheap cars also.  They have more cars to pick from, but that is why Tesla is adding more models.  And BYD is just getting into Europe and isn't in the USA yet.  I would expect in 2030, Tesla is #1 and BYD is #2 in global volume.  

There is no poor performance in the USA, Tesla has the #1 selling SUV and The Model 3 is one of the best selling sedans.  As they add the Cybertruck and next gen car that people can afford, then they start hitting a bigger pool of buyers and 

Kia EV6 sales are down in 2023, Tesla already took care of them.  Additionally, the Equinox EV is bigger than the EV6 and if GM delivers on $30k would be $18,000 less before a tax credit, which the Equinox is supposed to get, so that makes it $25,000 cheaper.   I didn't realize how big the Equinox EV is, for sure they can use a model or 2 that is smaller.

[David]

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

BYD is the biggest player in China and has cheap cars also.  They have more cars to pick from, but that is why Tesla is adding more models.  And BYD is just getting into Europe and isn't in the USA yet.  I would expect in 2030, Tesla is #1 and BYD is #2 in global volume.  

There is no poor performance in the USA, Tesla has the #1 selling SUV and The Model 3 is one of the best selling sedans.  As they add the Cybertruck and next gen car that people can afford, then they start hitting a bigger pool of buyers and 

Kia EV6 sales are down in 2023, Tesla already took care of them.  Additionally, the Equinox EV is bigger than the EV6 and if GM delivers on $30k would be $18,000 less before a tax credit, which the Equinox is supposed to get, so that makes it $25,000 cheaper.   I didn't realize how big the Equinox EV is, for sure they can use a model or 2 that is smaller.

I can only say your an Idiot at this point. 

BYD is building new expanding portfolio at the same time expanding into Europe faster than Tesla is and clearly leaving Tesla behind.

Tesla HAS NO NEW MODELS. They are struggling to get their Semi produced, They are Struggling to get their Cybertruck produced and in normal Musk manner he has only stated that Tesla will build a low cost EV, but nothing is actually being done and nothing has been offered to prove otherwise.

Tesla has a DATED and aging product line. Tesla has NO NEW battery cell production coming online, Tesla is living on dated, aged old tech.

• PROVE where is this new product?
• PROVE where are the updates of existing 4 models?
• PROVE where are the increasing battery cell production plants or expansion of existing plants?

I have shown you time and time again the facts of Tesla reducing sales numbers, Tesla reducing market share. Tesla is the Leader NOW but the last 3 years have shown they have peaked and are reducing every year.

You refuse to wake up to the fact that EV6 sales are down as they change from built in Korea to built in the USA for the rebate. You have nothing to stand on here. This has been debunked as FUD from you. Genesis, Hyundai and Kia are all expanding auto production plants and battery production plants here to take advantage of the rebates. Once production comes online sales will increase as consumers will take advantage of their EVs quality, price and rebate.

GM has the Equinox, Blazer and Sierra coming out this year. GM as I have posted already has committed to building sub-compact EVs at price points below $30,000 and is doing this by using their Korea and Brazil divisions to learn the Ultium platform and help develop additional Global EVs.

Tesla is sure not doing this. 

As it stands, YES Tesla is the EV sales leader here and GM has moved into 2nd place with Hyundai, then Kia, then Volkswagen and Ford in 5th place.

How this all plays out will be an interesting thing to watch. VW has committed to battery plants in Canada and the U.S. with increased production just as Hyundai/Kia/Genesis has and Genesis just started their EV production here in the U.S. so sales will increase as production ramps up.

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, David said:

I can only say your an Idiot at this point

And I can only say that we have clearly been wasting our collective breathes trying to debate with a “Paid by the word by Elon Musk” bar mover who will never admit his faults. He just wash, rinses, and repeats the same easily debunked nonsense so maybe it’s time to let him just talk to himself and no longer directly engage the brick wall.  

[Drew Dowdell]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

GM can't scale either, they sold 2 Hummer EV's last quarter.

The Hummer had a stop sale order.

 

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is still scaling up faster than GM or Ford are, thus GM and Ford aren't going to catch up.

No. Tesla still only has 4 models and only the Cybertruck on the horizon. The "Model-2" is still far off.
GM has Lyriq, Bolt (for now), Equinox EV, Blazer EV, Silverado EV, Sierra EV, Hummer EV, Hummer Truck EV, an XT4 EV, and more that I'm sure we don't even know about. GM has been building battery capacity that rivals Tesla.

Hyundai/Genesis/KIA is even further ahead of GM in that regard, and the Ioniq 6 and EV9 will eat Tesla's lunch. The only, and I mean only, issue with the Ioniq 5 is the hatchback form factor that Americans don't like, but it is a more comfortable and better appointed car than the Model-3. I'd take any electric Genesis over any Tesla every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Hyundai isn't my favorite manufacturer, but they know how to assemble a car with quality better than Tesla does.

Ford rushed out their Lightning in order to claim first in the segment, and while it's a fantastic truck to drive, it is still very much a Version 1.0.  The Silverado/Sierra bests the Lightning in every published metric, so I expect it will be even better than the Lightning.  The Mach-E had two main flaws, both of which are fixable in a refresh. One, the ride is too harsh for US drivers... harsher than the Model 3, which is also a bit too harsh. Two, they didn't include a heatpump for HVAC. This caused the range concerns.

The only thing Tesla has is their brand reputation.  IF they fix their build quality issues, they might coast on that for a while like Toyota does. If not, eventually, they'll be more like GM of the 80's, burning their reputation with customers by building shoddy products and alienating customers.

The companies that should be the most worried are Toyota and Honda. They made a wrong choice years ago to not pursue EVs. Honda is so far behind that they are relying on GM's tech to build their EVs. Toyota apparently forgot how to build cars with their first EV attempt and the wheels fall off.

Telsa woke two sleeping giants with Hyundai and GM.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Hummer had a stop sale order.

 

No. Tesla still only has 4 models and only the Cybertruck on the horizon. The "Model-2" is still far off.
GM has Lyriq, Bolt (for now), Equinox EV, Blazer EV, Silverado EV, Sierra EV, Hummer EV, Hummer Truck EV, an XT4 EV, and more that I'm sure we don't even know about. GM has been building battery capacity that rivals Tesla.

Hyundai/Genesis/KIA is even further ahead of GM in that regard, and the Ioniq 6 and EV9 will eat Tesla's lunch. The only, and I mean only, issue with the Ioniq 5 is the hatchback form factor that Americans don't like, but it is a more comfortable and better appointed car than the Model-3. I'd take any electric Genesis over any Tesla every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Hyundai isn't my favorite manufacturer, but they know how to assemble a car with quality better than Tesla does.

Ford rushed out their Lightning in order to claim first in the segment, and while it's a fantastic truck to drive, it is still very much a Version 1.0.  The Silverado/Sierra bests the Lightning in every published metric, so I expect it will be even better than the Lightning.  The Mach-E had two main flaws, both of which are fixable in a refresh. One, the ride is too harsh for US drivers... harsher than the Model 3, which is also a bit too harsh. Two, they didn't include a heatpump for HVAC. This caused the range concerns.

The only thing Tesla has is their brand reputation.  IF they fix their build quality issues, they might coast on that for a while like Toyota does. If not, eventually, they'll be more like GM of the 80's, burning their reputation with customers by building shoddy products and alienating customers.

The companies that should be the most worried are Toyota and Honda. They made a wrong choice years ago to not pursue EVs. Honda is so far behind that they are relying on GM's tech to build their EVs. Toyota apparently forgot how to build cars with their first EV attempt and the wheels fall off.

Telsa woke two sleeping giants with Hyundai and GM.

It isn’t about GM having 5 EV models or 10 EV models, it is how many can they build?  Can they build 1 million Equinox EV’s per year?  Because Tesla can build 1 million Model Y’s.  And same goes for Hyundai or Ford, can they produce at big volume and can they make a profit?  
 

I agree Toyota and Honda are in trouble, Nissan, Subaru and Mazda are in even more trouble.  Toyota at least has a ton of cash and being the largest car maker, they can probably spend their way out of trouble and they may shrink but they won’t go bankrupt.  
 

GM is shrinking in China, down 25% in Q1, with Buick, Cadillac and Chevy anll down over 30% and GM isn’t in Europe.  GM is on a path to be more of a North and South American company not really a global giant.  Hyundai is growing in volume but they make like $700 per car in profit.  

[David]

42 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It isn’t about GM having 5 EV models or 10 EV models, it is how many can they build?  Can they build 1 million Equinox EV’s per year?  Because Tesla can build 1 million Model Y’s.  And same goes for Hyundai or Ford, can they produce at big volume and can they make a profit?  
 

I agree Toyota and Honda are in trouble, Nissan, Subaru and Mazda are in even more trouble.  Toyota at least has a ton of cash and being the largest car maker, they can probably spend their way out of trouble and they may shrink but they won’t go bankrupt.  
 

GM is shrinking in China, down 25% in Q1, with Buick, Cadillac and Chevy anll down over 30% and GM isn’t in Europe.  GM is on a path to be more of a North and South American company not really a global giant.  Hyundai is growing in volume but they make like $700 per car in profit.  

Tesla has Struggled to get where they are in production ignoring proven production methods all for the ego of Musk who thinks he can do everything better than everyone else. 

Why do you think GM cannot scale production as they bring battery production online?

The only reason for the stop orders on Hummer was an error by the 3rd party supplier on battery sealing the battery packs. That has now been corrected and production is resuming. Clearly all the OEMs can build plenty of EVs if they have the battery cells / battery packs. Nothing is stopping any of the companies you have mentioned form building if they have the right parts in stock and ready.

Your question makes no sense when they have proven they can out build Tesla and GM is going to have the battery production online this year which is what is holding up the new EVs coming later this year.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

GM Tops Industry on R&D Spending as Share of Revenue

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2023/05/gm-tops-industry-on-rd-spending-as-share-of-revenue/

 

[David]

26 minutes ago, NINETY EIGHT REGENCY said:

GM Tops Industry on R&D Spending as Share of Revenue

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2023/05/gm-tops-industry-on-rd-spending-as-share-of-revenue/

 

This is a great read and is very enlightening as it shows VW #1, GM #2 and Mercedes #3 in R&D spending for EVs/New Technology. Surprising is that Tesla is so far behind when they used to lead the industry and they have no new models.

The lack of R&D spending will play a major role in who gets left behind in the auto business.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, David said:

Tesla has Struggled to get where they are in production ignoring proven production methods all for the ego of Musk who thinks he can do everything better than everyone else. 

 

Stop arguing against his phantom numbers. His "1 million" Equinox claim is about the dumbest damn thing I have read from him on this thread, and that is saying something. Why "1 million"? Tesla doesn't build that many of any ONE model. The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country and doesn't hit those numbers. The Equinox sure as hell won't nor does it need to because, again, PHANTOM NUMBERS. His whole post is pure bunk and we know it so why continue to indulge the non-sense?

[David]

34 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Stop arguing against his phantom numbers. His "1 million" Equinox claim is about the dumbest damn thing I have read from him on this thread, and that is saying something. Why "1 million"? Tesla doesn't build that many of any ONE model. The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country and doesn't hit those numbers. The Equinox sure as hell won't nor does it need to because, again, PHANTOM NUMBERS. His whole post is pure bunk and we know it so why continue to indulge the non-sense?

Cause he reminds me of WWI and how stupid everyone was in thinking war was gentlemanly. 

Specifically the movie Gallipoli (1981) - IMDb

His constant pounding of the same message while ignoring the actual facts is just amazing to me. Eventually those that won were those that continue to evolve based on facts and changed their tactics. 

Eventually people either go away or wake up to the truth.

Plus it can be fun if you take it with a lite hearted approach of banter. Helps me pass the day to rebut his crazy FUD.

Thank you for the discussion, always enjoyable too. 

I hope everyone has a great end of the work week, enjoy some good food, drink, friendship and relax.

Quick review of the latest stories does not bode well for Tesla.

Tesla China Deliveries Drop in Sign Price War Is Taking Its Toll (msn.com)

Great to see that Wireless charging for Autos is moving forward.

Wireless charging for EVs is coming soon — and you'll love it (msn.com)

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Stop arguing against his phantom numbers. His "1 million" Equinox claim is about the dumbest damn thing I have read from him on this thread, and that is saying something. Why "1 million"? Tesla doesn't build that many of any ONE model. The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the country and doesn't hit those numbers. The Equinox sure as hell won't nor does it need to because, again, PHANTOM NUMBERS. His whole post is pure bunk and we know it so why continue to indulge the non-sense?

Tesla is going to sell over 1 million Model Y this year.  The Model 3/Y sold 412,000 in Q1 and that is usually the slowest quarter.  Even just multiplying by 4 they are at 1,648,000 of them together this year, and more likely will be 1.8 million.  And the Model Y would thus be about 1.2 million of that and Model 3 600,000.  

That is why GM should be targeting 1 million Equinox global sales.  That's just to be 2nd place.  And 2nd is good, if GM can take 2nd to Tesla and stay ahead of BYD, VW and Toyota, good on them.

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That is why GM should be targeting 1 million Equinox global sales.  That's just to be 2nd place.  And 2nd is good, if GM can take 2nd to Tesla and stay ahead of BYD, VW and Toyota, good on them.

Told you it wasn't going to be explained to you again but you go on ahead and wash, rinse, repeat the nonsense. Let me just leave you with this fact. If sales of GM and the competition increase to where EVs like the Equinox sell 1 million a year, Tesla will no longer be selling that many. See where this is going or are phantom numbers your only game? Tesla enjoys the numbers they do because of scale of manufacturing while others are still crashing up. When everyone else is up to scale, Tesla no longer sells in those numbers. That is the end of the discussion, because I am tired of explaining simple facts to you.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

Cause he reminds me of WWI and how stupid everyone was in thinking war was gentlemanly. 

Specifically the movie Gallipoli (1981) - IMDb

His constant pounding of the same message while ignoring the actual facts is just amazing to me. Eventually those that won were those that continue to evolve based on facts and changed their tactics. 

Eventually people either go away or wake up to the truth.

Plus it can be fun if you take it with a lite hearted approach of banter. Helps me pass the day to rebut his crazy FUD.

Thank you for the discussion, always enjoyable too. 

I hope everyone has a great end of the work week, enjoy some good food, drink, friendship and relax.

Quick review of the latest stories does not bode well for Tesla.

Tesla China Deliveries Drop in Sign Price War Is Taking Its Toll (msn.com)

Great to see that Wireless charging for Autos is moving forward.

Wireless charging for EVs is coming soon — and you'll love it (msn.com)

You keep talking about what GM will do, not what they have already done.  GM sold 970 Ultium cars in Q1, Tesla sold 422,875 cars.  Tesla is already running at scale, GM is not.  GM might scale up fast, but they haven't actually done it yet and GM has made dozens of empty promises in the past.  Cadillac was supposed to overtake BMW and Mercedes through 4 or 5 difference reboots and it never happened.  Bob Lutz said Pontiac was going to be the American BMW, and the brand was killed off 3 years later.  

GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, etc all have a plan, they all talk a good game of what they have coming 2024 to 2030 but we don't know yet who will actually execute and who will come up short.

And the wildcard is the Chinese, and whether or not they start selling cars in the USA.

BYD Seagull $11,400

BYD Dolphin $16,000

BYD Seal with a 340 mile range and costs $32,000

A Hyundai Ionic 6 with that sort of range is $45,000.  A Hyundai Sonata starts at $25,000, are all those buyers going to magically pay $45,000 for the Ioniq 6?  the Ionic 6 is $7,000 more than a Cadillac CT5, I don't see where the volume comes from when you charge above Cadillac pricing for Hyundais.  And that is where I think most legacy OEMs are screwed, they will price so many people out of the market, their sales will fall off.   And Tesla, BYD and the other Chinese companies will move in.  And GM may deliver on $30k Equinox, $25k Trax EV and not be at risk, but they won't all do that.

[smk4565]

13 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Told you it wasn't going to be explained to you again but you go on ahead and wash, rinse, repeat the nonsense. Let me just leave you with this fact. If sales of GM and the competition increase to where EVs like the Equinox sell 1 million a year, Tesla will no longer be selling that many. See where this is going or are phantom numbers your only game? Tesla enjoys the numbers they do because of scale of manufacturing while others are still crashing up. When everyone else is up to scale, Tesla no longer sells in those numbers. That is the end of the discussion, because I am tired of explaining simple facts to you.

It isn't only about scale, GM has plenty of scale, they had scale on the Cruze which sold a few hundred thousand, yet the Corolla sold 1 million worldwide.  GM sells 300,000 or so Equinoxes, the Rav4 globally is closer to 900,000.  You still have to have the product people want and distribution channels.  

GM could sell 1 million Equinoxes and Tesla sales could still go up.  Subaru, Mazda and Honda combined sell about 6 million cars a year, those brands could be 50% of what they are now by 2030, there is 3 million units up for grabs right there.  Renault/Nissan/Mitsubishi alliance is usually around 9 million, when they lose half their business because they have bad product and over priced EV's then there is another 4.5 million units up for grabs.

This is pretty easy to see, the price leaders are going to win, the overpriced cars won't sell.  And the luxury market is different, if people want a Porsche or a Mercedes, they will buy that brand, the price isn't as important.  But when the Equinox EV is $30,000 (if it happens) and the smaller Kia EV6 is $48,000, I think $18,000 is a lot of money to the middle class car buyer and thus the Kia doesn't sell.  

To wash, rinse repeat what I have stated before, the EV6 is Kia Sportage size, but nearly double the price.  The EV6 is about Cadillac XT4 size and about $12,000 more money.  If Kia were EV only today, they would be pricing themselves above Cadillac and similar to Mercedes and BMW, the EV6 is GLC pricing at the same size of vehicle.  Mercedes can charge that because they are Mercedes, if Kia priced their line like that, they drop under 500k units per year world wide, and all their lost sales get picked up by the Chinese, GM, Tesla's upcoming cheap car, etc.

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

You keep talking about what GM will do, not what they have already done.

And you do the SAME DAMN thing with Tesla so just sit your double standards out of this one.

 

Oh and it is 100% about scale of manufacturing, a point you have made in Tesla's sales success so again, double standards and full sit out of this one.

 

Again, just more wash, rinse, repeat nonsense with a side of phantom issues and numbers.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It isn't only about scale, GM has plenty of scale, they had scale on the Cruze which sold a few hundred thousand, yet the Corolla sold 1 million worldwide.

We are talking US sales FFS. Of course Toyota can sell 1 million Corollas because they are made and sold WORLDWIDE. US only Apples to worldwide oranges. The rest of your post is irrelevant knowing that simple fact.

 

Again, we are talking about US SALES, not worldwide so set the bar down and try to stick to the main point(s).

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And the wildcard is the Chinese, and whether or not they start selling cars in the USA.

And NONE of those cars will make it over here nor will they be anywhere close to those prices here. It is baffling that this has to explained to you. Skip the part where BYD will probably never be allowed to even sell that junk here in there first place.

 

And stop comparing ICE cars to EVs as far as pricing goes. You are just all over the damn place and now you are just back to the same apples to oranges BS you have been using for years now. The price of a gas powered CT5 has jack $h! to do with the pricing of an Ioniq 5. Besides, your pricing "logic" applies to your own favorite brand (EVs being priced $10K+ MORE than their ICE counterparts) but I noticed that you left out those examples. I wonder why.

Edited May 6 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@smk4565

This is all I have to say to you from here on out because I already lied about responding to your BS yesterday so what I have said here is just a P.S. type of response. You spout the same BS about everyone NOT from Germany, except for Tesla which I can only assume is because they are paying you by the word. You get debunked at damn near every turn yet come back a week later spouting off the same BS you said before like it never even happened. That is not "debate". That is you trolling at every turn because of your one brand fandom and bowing down to Elon Musk at every turn now and it's old. It's just ridiculous at this point so have fun being wrong for years to come here because I am out. Between your bar moving posts and one sided fanboy logic, who wants to discuss a damn thing with you at this point (other than David lol)?

[smk4565]

I am not a Tesla fan, I would take a Mercedes over Tesla.  I am just stating the fact that the Model Y is the #1 selling vehicle in the world.  And those who have global scale and can make affordable EV’s will take the market share, those who can’t scale or price EV’s at twice the price of ICE will be gone.