NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

I like the grille on this STS. The interior that is a different story. Every small things helps to turn the tide and get more sales. That Chinese Cadillac SLS interior really would nice here.

Globalization is starting to make an impact. Not only do we have the possibility of Holdens coming to America as Pontiacs, we also have the possibility of Saturns from Europe. If GM can continue to globalize, it may help the advantage it needs. Toyota and Honda do it. They do it for platforms and for factories in other countries. the only thing I fear from this is loss of jobs here in the United States..

I thought about this looking at the photos. It is good, but it is sad too. Why? There was a point and time Cadillac did not stretch their cars and they were that roomy in standard form. Does this say Cadillac need to regain its postion with the biggest or roomiest car. I am not a total fan of DTS because I do not care for the headlight design ( it is not a quad headlight design) and the hood needs a stand up hood ornament. It looks stripped(outside). These are just my opinions.

GM could solve the minivan problem easy. The solution is in this thread. Chopped image (courtesy of familycar.com) That minivan in this thread would solve two problems. GM could create minivans off the crossovers and change the rear styling and add the sliding doors( minivan features). They could use the lambda platform as stated and the crossovers and minivans would occupy the same space on the dealer lots. It is cost effective too. The product would adjust whatever is popular in the market. Chevy would get a version which would be the minivan. The interiors would be similar for the minivans and crossovers. The set up would be: Chevy - minivan( the front end would be unique to Chevy, but share Saturn headlights)( interior would be very Chevy (akin to the new 2008 Malibu) Saturn minvan and crossover ( just like the photo in this thread). They would differ in the doors and the rear styling. Buick- minivan (share front end with Enclave and "some" interior features, but different rear styling.) GMC crossover(Acadia) The Chevy,Saturn and Buick would share the liftgate,the taillamps in the back. You could use the existing factory scheduled and other factory not being used. 3 minivans, 3 crossovers. A total of six vehicles off the same platform share partsa you do not see and some you do. AWD would be offered too.

I think it is interesting what is being said. Evok hit the mark with his Oldsmobile comments. Sixty Eight remembers Oldsmobile for what it was and longs for that Oldsmobile. The others who like the new Oldsmobile The new Oldsmobile failed. I do not like that it did, but it is something as an Oldsmobile enthusiast I had to accept. Out of those cars, it will be the 1995-1999 Aurora that is remembered. It already is when people think Oldsmobile. The others will be forgotten. Sometimes I feel and think GM wants to forget the 1997-2004 Oldsmobile too. I notice when it mentions Oldsmobile now it always shows one from the 1950's-1980's up to the early 1990's. Many will still say Intrigue should have been called Cutlass..... As an Oldsmobile owner and loyalist, I did not not go out and buy a Buick. Most have not gone to Buick. I can tell you where Oldsmobile owners went: 1. We have kept our cars and continue to drive them. 2. They moved on to other brands OUTSIDE GM and NOT to BUICK. *** If they had, Buick would be in a better position and those sales would have been absorbed and they were not. 3. They continue to buy used Oldsmobiles. 4. As the admin on Oldsmobile Forums, I can tell you we have younger members. They are buying older Oldsmobiles(Cutlass, Ninety Eight, Eighty Eight, Toronado and Ciera). 5. GM ASSUMED that we would go to other GM divisions. It did not happen. I know quite a few moved on to Lincoln( Town Car etc), Mercury(Grand Marquis and others), Acura and some other import brands. I can tell you I have seen most used Oldsmobiles at Nissan and Honda dealerships. This was the very thing GM did not want to happen. I even admit some of the Nissans and Mitsubishi styling cues remind me of Oldsmobiles(the rooflines, split grilles etc.) Pontiac and Buick are in a dilemma. It needs to be fixed. Time is of importance and it is something they do not have. I like all the GM divisions, and I want to see them succeed. I am a fan of past Pontiacs and some Buicks. The only way I see Pontiac and Buick making it is to become Holden North America. Think of Holden (Buick) and HSV (Pontiac). Now modify that to and extent for the American market. Holden is one line. Buick, Pontiac and GMC are fast becoming one line. The Buick and Pontiac people here are going through what the Oldsmobile people went through years ago. I was talked down to, talked at and told to get over it. Not the same thing when you experience it when it is happening to your favorite GM division is it? Be sure of one thing... When it is all said and done with Buick and Pontiac, some will not like what happens and takes place. Some will have to embrace what happens. Some will leave all together and not look back. Some will long for what was and not what is. The last Toronado was based on past Toronados. I ought to know because I was the one who sent them the idea the used. I can even tell what years it came from too. It was very Oldsmobile. I posted them on the old Cheers and Gears board along with the letter.

Nice to see the spy photos. I look forward to the Holden Statesman/Caprice photos. That car also looks shorter than the current model. The reason why Holden is doing more European styling instead of Amercian styling is because the Australian market has become quite competitive. It is not enough to be rear drive and have a V8. You have to either stand out or make something that is just as competitive. The market is changing there. At least Holden is not sitting still or making the mistakes GM American did. Holden wants younger buyers too.

Interesting how this conversation is going. The point is.. Pontiac cannot be Pontiac of the 1990's. It has to be something more focused and something that it is known for. That may mean a smaller division with a focused line up. Pontiac has not built a "successful" Toyota Camry or Accord. Maybe Chevy and Saturn can sell that kind of car.( Malibu/Aura) Look at the big picture: Pontiac has to have: 1. Got to have products 2. Cars that are somewhat exclusive to Pontiac 3. Cars that appeal to the passion of the buyer as they once did. Lets be honest... If GM is going to give each division distinction: There is no need for G6 when you have Malibu and Aura. There is no need for Montana when you have Relay and Uplander There is no need for Torrent when you have Equinox and VUE and Outlook Eventhough some many not like it, Saturn is getting ready to play a bigger role in the scheme of things. Saturn has something Pontiac does not have.. baggage and a image to contend with. Ask your self honestly with Pontiac means... Once you see that, it does not mean: midsized front drive sedans and coupes, minivans, suv's, or crossovers. It does mean sporty yet athletic vehicles....... Saturn can at least get people to look at a midsized sedan or car that would woo some import owners. Solstice when you think about it is like a modern day Fiero. So you can easily have one sedan to fill the Grand Prix and Bonneville slot One car to fill the Grand Prix coupe and GTO coupe spot. One car to fill the Firebird/Trans Am slot Throw a rear drive sport wagon in there too boot. No other GM division has one. When you put a smaller for defined Buick with a smaller more defined Pontiac along with a truck/crossover/suv based GMC you have one full line division. We must stop thinking of Pontiac as it was. Over twenty years of bad management destroyed that. GM wants to give Pontiac a chance for survival. Feeding it every GM platform when the vehicle is not to distinct from another GM car is pointless.... Pontiac 2006-2007: Pontiac Torrent- Chevrolet Equinox- Saturn VUE Pontiac G6- Chevrolet Malibu Pontiac Grand Prix- Chevrolet Impala/Buick LaCrosse Pontiac G5- Chevrolet Cobalt Pontiac Vibe Other than the Vibe and the Solstice and a twin kidney grille and the sporty wheels and chrome rimmed analog red backlight analog gauges, what is distinct about Pontiac? What stands out to you as saying... That's a Pontiac!!!! GTO was not listed because it is head out to pasture... People do not realize Pontiac was not only fighting inside GM,but inside the division. Lets go back. Pontiac 6000 was fwd and when Grand Prix went fwd in 1988, they were close in size and more. Pontiac 6000 was killed. The Grand Prix grew and was so close to Bonneville, it rendered Bonneville useless. You have two fwd sedans close in size and one carrying a higher price tag without much difference. The same thing happened with Grand Am and Sunfire. They were close in size and then Grand Am won that battle. Then add to that Pontiac was fighting outside the division with other GM divisions for similar cars. GM has spent so much time fighting with in that they have not been able to fight outside GM. I remember back in the late 1980's it got so bad other GM divisions would mention other GM cars in their ads! Buick had the same problem. LeSabre Limited got too close to a base Buick Park Avenue Century got to close to the Regal If you think I am kidding look what they did to Buick Regal and Cutlass Supreme in 1995. They put the same interiors in the cars!! Add to that the character lines the cars once had. GM just started changing grilles and wheels and some things on the inside saying it was a different car.. People expected that from Ford and Chrysler, but not from GM. That is how Mercury got into trouble too. GM started making a heavy practice of this. The victims of this: Pontiac, Buick, and Oldsmobile. You what to know what is really sad... At one time Pontiac, Buick, and Oldsmobile all were selling the same cars!! The only thing that was different: Buick and Oldsmobile did not have an F body, and Pontiac did not have a E or a C body. That my friends is distinction that was lost over time.

To make my point: 1960's Pontiac commercials: and versus this: late 1980's Pontiac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNmvEGFr15E&search=pontiac and late 1990's Pontiac The mission is quite clear what Pontiac was and what it should be...

WOW......... That is saying something.. That is interesting they fondly remember Oldsmobile as we still do. Hopefully GM will one day see this too.

I hope this becomes a reality. Pontiac should have been the way they are thinking a while back. I was looking recently at Pontiac of the past in the thread about "Everything Old is New Again on the GM News Section, and I noticed something.. No one fondly remembers the Pontiac of the 1990's or the late 80's. It was not until recently people became excited about Pontiac with the Solstice. all too often on this board and other places, I hear to it referred to as front wheel drive crap. No one will fondly remember the early 1990's Grand Prix sedans. They will fondly remember the Pontiac 6000 STE. It is what the Toyota Camry is now. It is the Pontiac of the 1960's the 1970's and early 1980's they fondly remember. People fondly remember the: Firebird/Trans Am Grand Prix Bonneville/Grand Ville/Parisienne/Catalina/Grand Safari GTO Grand Am(the one from the 1970's and early to mid 1980's) Grand LeMans and Luxury LeMans (1960's and 1970's) Fiero Honestly... look at the interior of the 1977-1987 Grand Prix. Then look at the current Grand Prix. I like the current Grand Prix, but it comes up short. Pontiac used to use wood trim and distinct interiors and exteriors. The reason why they started with all that body cladding in the 1980's was they needed to stand out from other GM divisions. They then became dependent on that as a crutch. Pontiac then became style and no substance. I am here to tell you.. If the last Bonneville 2000-2005 was rear wheel drive and had more interior room and a different instrumentation panel it would have been a different story. They finally started getting it right in 2004-2005 and it still came up short because it was front wheel drive. The Grand Prix is suffering right now for the same reason. GM is starting to figure it out people. The last time GM was truly successful was in the 1980-1986 era. That is when most divisions were rear drive and were distinct and semi independent. All of them were making a profit and selling at least 700,000 cars a year. GM was putting more cars on fewer platforms in the 1960's and 1970's. By the 1980's and 1990's they had too many platforms and not enough distinction. That whole consolidation businesss of 1984 under Roger Smith and then the business of the 1990's and early part of the 21st Century under Zarella did not help. Holden has Commodore, UTE, Statesman, Caprice, Calais, Aventra and a few others off the same platform. All are rear drive. GM got in trouble for the same reason Ford did. 1. Quality 2. Missing the point and not having a sense of the market and buyers. 3. MOST IMPORTANTLY( trying to out Japanese the Japanese.) They spent at 20 years and lost time trying to do that. Several have said it here before: You bring a car to the market copying someone else, by the time you get it to market, they competition has moved ahead to the next level. Rear wheel drive is no longer a compromise and you can have rear drive that handles just as well as a front drive car. I can only hope that they are realizing this with Buick. Do I think Pontiac can be saved?? Yes, but it takes time and a clear image and effort and money like they did with Cadillac. The new GM is starting to shape up. It is clear what Chevrolet is. It is clear Saturn is Opel/Vauxhall North America. It is clear what Cadillac is It is also clear what SAAB is also. What Pontiac and Buick and GMC will be has to be shaped out. It may become Holden North America with three distinct product offerings from three different brands marketed as one. I also still feel Oldsmobile could have been saved. I also still feel someday they could be revived. If it did return, it would not be the 1997-2004 Oldsmobile either. It would not be a full line division either. I am glad GM is realizing it has rich history and heritage and a foundation to work with. This is something the Asian imports do not have. 1. Design is first 2. Quality is second 3. perception is third. At one point and time, Pontiac used to define performance. Why can't it be that way again. In order to understand what Pontiac should be, go look at the 1960's- early to mid 1980's Pontiac.

Sad thing indeed to witness. This is why have to be careful what we say to people in our daily lives and online. You never know who you are talking to and how they will take things. People do not realize the power of their words and the impact they have. That is why they say do not go to bed angry and tell your loved ones how much you love them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QaxwrexTk...h=5th%20gear%20

I am so sorry Satty. I am glad you are okay and walked away. You were fortunate. Most people do not. I am glad that you did and that things worked out well for you on the physical side. Thankfully your brother had a spare vehicle and you still have that. Good luck on your vehicle quest.

Sadly, that photo is of the Chinese Buick LaCrosse.

Walt I remember that footage.. I remember when I sent those videos out.. I am glad to see you still have it and use it to make a point. As for that second generation Aurora, the story is.. A Oldsmobile engineer asked GM not Cadillac to use Sigma because they felt they had a case because Oldsmobile was great with rear drive cars. Some GM excutive said no, and soon after that Oldsmobile was gone. The 2nd generation Aurora was supposed to be called Anthem and it was going to replace 88 and 98 and LSS. That is why the 2nd generation Aurora looks like a redesigned 88. GM was either tight on money or something and they went back and modified Anthem to become Aurora. It seems the 2nd generation Aurora fairs better than the 1st generation in terms of relability and quality. Most people who own them keep them.

This is why I drive the car I drive. This is why those two Cadillac video threads got responses. They are what people want. The Chrysler LX car s are hits for the reasons so many have said. If GM can get us more of these cars in the fashion we want, they may increase sales. The Lucerne looks great, but it has an international appeal. The Buicks in China look more American than ours do. They use stand up hood ornaments. You only see that one car in this country that is American. That is the Lincoln Town Car. No, we should not lose our identity for the same of globalization. We should embrace it and sell what we know to the world. The reason why GM and Ford lost so much time and market share was not just due to poor products, but poor product planning. I recently read or heard the last rear drive Buick (The Roadmaster) was a success, but what killed it was the fact GM stop building cars like that. I prefer the large cars like mine. My Ninety Eight may not use a V8, but the V6 is just as strong. It is the values of what it stands for that sold me.

Bring it here. I do not see why not. You already have cars from the import automakers in that segment being sold here. It helps Saturn and GM out. That is good business.

Thank you for your comments. As far as that Chevy and Cadillac comment, I based it on what I saw. I stood at the car show next to the XLR. Almost every person called the XLR and overprice Chevrolet Corvette and said it was the same thing. I do not agree with that, but it is the perception that people have.

Badge engineering will not die as long as there are cars and there needs to be a cheap version and a expensive version of something(Chevrolet Corvette/Cadillac XLR). It will not die as long as there has to be a business case to produce a car. For example.. common parts sharing. Take the business case for the Camaro. There has to be something else on that platform to jusify the production of that car other than Holdens which are not sold here other than the departing GTO.. If you can spread the costs across the car lines, it makes a business case. That is why you have Solstice, Sky and Opel GT. There has to be: cost effectiveness common parts sharing a plant that can build different cars in the same factory a marketing plan a need in the market for that vehicle. There has to be a profit to be made if one falls short or because as in the case for most badge jobs some people do not see themselves buying cheap versions of this or that because of perception. That is why some buy Mercury's and not Fords. Toyota does it: Cheap= Camry Expensive= Lexus ES Some times, badge engineering is a stop gap measure so a company can stay in a segment. In Mexico's case it is because they drive smaller cars more than we do, and Pontiac is sold there and they need a car in that segment. As far as Pontiacs other badge jobs and marketing in the United States, right now with Chevy and Saturn on one side and Buick on the other, Pontiac is getting the squeeze in the United States. Pontiac does not have one car you can say.. "That's a Pontiac." Solstice and Sky Torrent and Equinox G6 and Malibu Grand Prix and La Crosse and Impala Montana SV6 and Relay, Terazza, Uplander G5 and Cobalt This is why Pontiac has no clear market or distinction because it has no cars of its own. Anyone can put a sport package on a car. What does Pontiac mean to people? You have to ask that question first before it can be clearly defined what makes a Pontiac a Pontiac. The only reason people buy Pontiacs is because of the name Pontiac not because of a product(Solstice is the only exception for now). These are GM loyal and Pontiac loyal buyers not import buyers or conquest buyers. Toyota sells because of a reputation for quality. Honda sells for the same reason. The thing is.. they have no style. Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger and Dodge Magnum are basically the same car with three different variations. They sell because style and appeal factor. It is cost effective, but Chrysler is making money off the same car three times over. They now will add a muscle car to the mix. GM is bigger and is different from others. The other companies spread a car or a platform across two lines. GM in most cases spreads it across three or four just to sustain market share. GM cannot continue to sustain or grow by competing against itself in the market. Saturn is the only case where I have seen it may work for the benefit of the whole. By selling Opels here and throwing in a few American GM cars, Saturn will get those import buyers and do it by having an image as an import fighter. Saturn does not have baggage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdrqRgkNqIA...r%20commercials

Congrats on your purchase. Enjoy it and have fun..

Most impressive!! I must say I am impressed with your work. You know that is the thing about some of the older luxury cars I like.. You get one you are willing to invest to fix it up to make it really nice. I know I did a few things to my Ninety Eight. Good for you. I was really interesting in that material you used to fix that leather. Mine is not cracked or broken, but I often wondered how could you fix cracked or broken leather.

Four door convertible DTS: http://images2.auction123.com/sizequalityp...pg?webimage001l http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...5&pic=2&pCnt=28 http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...5&pic=3&pCnt=28 http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...5&pic=7&pCnt=28 http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...5&pic=8&pCnt=28 http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...&pic=20&pCnt=28 http://www.auctionadmin.com/ImageViewer.as...&pic=28&pCnt=28

SAAB Sonnett anyone?? If it should come to pass.....

1989 Riviera: 1990-1992 Oldsmobile Toronado: Ahead of their time.. GM was first....