Telsa Model 3 pic

[Suaviloquent]

Almost 300k deposits of intent.

 

 

$300 million dollars pocketed - but it's restricted cash. But good reserve buffer. Can only recognize as revenue as deliveries commence.

[balthazar]

The Model S battery pack is $10,000 for 60 kW and $12,000 for 85 kW. 

 

If they can get the battery and electric motor down to like $5,000 then you are getting close to cost of a gasoline engine/transmission, etc.  They have work to do, but as cost drops look out.  The higher trim Model 3 is expected to do 0-60 in under 4 seconds.  So that is Corvette level performance in a $50,000 sedan that seats 5 and has 2 trunks worth of storage space.

That's what Tesla charges for it, but they don't charge what the whole car costs to build, so we're still spitting into the wind.

 

But as you've said many times, 'sedans are a dying breed', so the model 3 is already chasing a disappearing segment, right?

[balthazar]

Suaviloquent ~>>Tesla has already put a path forward to profitability.<<

What is it, exactly?

 

>>I don't see any big name automaker invest in America to make new facilities.<<

You haven't seen a DOZEN new assembly plants built in this country over the last 25 years??
You are aware Tesla is in an ex-GM plant, right? I know: you were talking about the battery plant, but still….

[Suaviloquent]

New facilities as of the biggest auto recovery since the recession. No. Not a single new automotive plant at all by the big three. SHAP got some big investment, but that's about it.

 

 

And the NUMMI plant was a failed joint venture. Except the structure of the facility, everything else had been liquidated.. But Tesla's totally revamped it, and I'd count it as a smart move. GM deserves no credit - and arguably the NUMMI venture is where GM finally learned how to make competent small cars. Guess who their partner was?

 

And Tesla expects to have full cost recovery 4th quarter 2016. For an all-electric marque, that's incredible.

 

But they make have to undertake more capex because Model 3 has more demand than expected. Interesting problem to have.

 

Tesla understands the market. They have created value. They just need to deliver it now. And then manage expectations.

[balthazar]

Theres understanding the market... and delivering to the market.

 

It's definitely an uphill battle...

[Suaviloquent]

The sad truth is that there are some morons all over who want to see this company fail, and fail it should - the mandate for electric vehicles is law now. No matter what.

 

By 2050. Say bye-bye to your prized Chevy SS's and Challenger Hellcats. 

 

The barriers to entry into the automotive market are immense. So in order to build a viable company, Musk sought out to create a whole new kind of company. 

 

Building a brand is more important than profits at the outset of a company. You can ask Fisker, you can ask all the failed new auto start-ups how they failed because they could not build awareness which after nurturing can lead to sales.

 

This is the only recent company to get this far. And every day it operates puts another milestone into the books. 

 

And it's not a fad.

 

I can surmise how the electric car market thinks like this.

 

via Imgflip Meme Maker

[Suaviloquent]

Full of win, that's Tesla.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/03/tesla-model-3-first-ride-yes-tesla-will-sell-a-ton/#4c4160af3893

[frogger]

A mile or so closer to downtown from where I am, driveways are the exception, never mind garages.. Million dollar+ homes but vehicle owners get by with street parking.  Then you get downtown and hundreds of condo highrise buildings are there, I cannot imagine the cost to retrofit their 6+ stories of parking spots with powered charging capacity but I'm glad to be around to see what happens..

[Suaviloquent]

I don't see how that's a problem for Tesla.

 

That's a problem for anything plug-in. And by those counts it's quite clear that the competition to this is even lamer, because they provide no strategy to address the infrastructure gap.

 

Atleast with the Tesla's cars, Powerwall and Solar city, you can go become net energy neutral, or perhaps even add power back to the grid.

[oldshurst442]

Full of win, that's Tesla.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/03/tesla-model-3-first-ride-yes-tesla-will-sell-a-ton/#4c4160af3893

 

 

From your link Suave...

“About 116,000 plug-in cars were sold in the U.S. in all of 2015. Tesla just pre-sold more than double that in 24 hrs,” said Max Zanan, CEO of IDDS Group, an automotive consulting firm, in an email sent to the media.

 

 

 

Yet somehow...somehow...

 

 

with new nay saying bullshyte....

 

116 000 EVs sold in total in the US for 2015...Nissan Leafs, Tesla Model S, Chevrolet Volts and Toyo Priuses, Ford Fusion hybrid EV etc....

116 000 EVs IN TOTAL...

 

The Chevrolet Bolt gets announced and...

 

The Tesla Model 3 gets announced...

 

Breaks the phoking internet...ALL NIGHT LONG...orders keep coming...

 

Only all night long???

 

The Tesla Model 3 orders is rocking around the phoking clock!!!!

[oldshurst442]

This comparison Im gonna make...its not exactly the same thing...

In 1964...Ford sold 100 000 Mustangs the first 3 months...in 12 months Ford sold 400 000 Mustangs and in 18 months...1 000 000.

 

• Tesla does not have the car...its Vapor Ware...
• These are only pre-orders
• But...no other car since 1964 has garnered this kind of frenzy
• say what you will, its pretty impressive for Tesla to get this kinda thing going on at a time when there are many many many types of cars, brands, models and companies in 2016....as opposed to GM/FoMoCo/Mopar/Studebaker in 1964...and Studebaker was sputtering in 1964....

 

No matter how one feels about Tesla's future....we must be amazed at how in 2016...a car maker has managed to at least compete in the same manner how the Mustang sold in 1964...

 

Every known car related entity is still in awe with the 1964 sales success of the Mustang....

In my eyes....in 2016...the Model 3 has come close to that...

[balthazar]

The Tesla Model 3 orders is rocking around the phoking clock!!!!

 

Can I get your specific opinion on a specific scenario here?

 

When 50 Shades of Grey was released, it had a HUGE buzz. The first print run was 1.25 million books. One week later, the publisher ran a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th print run, bringing the total copies up to 2.1 million. The public ordered/bought, and the printer produced immediately.

 

There were 30,000 Model X pre-orders, but only 2100 cars were built (not sold) in 4 months (after it went on sale). 

That's a rate of 6300 for the year. At that rate, it would take 4.8 years just to fill the pre-orders initially placed.

 

Is this a real problem?

 

 

People HAVE to understand the difference between orders and production. They do, don't they? I mean, if they think about it a minute?

[Suaviloquent]

No one has sidelined the issue.

 

Of course production is going to be one hell of a bitch.

 

But Tesla is too valuable of a brand now. It's not too big to fail yet. But it's too valuable to lose.

 

And quite frankly - what they have done is crush the credibility of the incumbents to deliver the kinds of products that can compete against this.

 

And to answer your question Balth, Tesla will deliver 80 to 90k vehicles this year.

 

With split of about 60/40 S/X.

 

They will fulfill all of the pre-orders this year.  Delays are unfortunate. And it is an uphill battle.

 

But unlike the companies that do nothing but follow - I want Tesla to succeed because they try harder. 

[oldshurst442]

What Suave said...

 

Tesla...

They started out with a Lotus car.

"Hey babe, what is a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? Lets get out of here. Lets go to a place where we could feel each other out, shall we?"

 

Then foreplay happened...

Heavy petting....the Model S.

Cunnilingus and fellatio might have been stale...the Model X...but penetration is about to happen....

What sort of wild and crazy sex will we see with the Model 3?

The script has not been written yet, but it seems that the lady friend is wet all over, excited and ready for all kinds of sexual positions...doggy, boring missionary, etc...

 

Yeah...I tied that in with 50 shades of grey...

 

A book that closely relates to the 1980s  movie  9 1/2 weeks with luscious Kim Basinger and Mickey Rourke...

 

 

50 Shades of Grey...

The 1960s sexual revolution has come and gone in America...yet  waspy (white anglo saxon protestant) puritan bitches are just now discovering their deepest sexual fantasies....FINALLY!!!!!!!!!

 

Took them long enough....but then again...waspy white anglo puritan lovers are not exactly what dreams are made of...

 

Remember Balthy, Im Greek.

Aphrodite aint just the Goddess of Love and beauty...she has other titles too...

 

Eros...yeah little cutesy cupid...is the God of LUST!

 

Dionysus...God of Wine...and DEBAUCHERY...

 

Zeus...cant get more of a horn dog than him...

 

And THAT is why 50 shades of gGrey was popular...

 

But...that shyte is old news in Greece...in India (Kama Sutra)

French Canadians in Quebec...the French in general in France....50 Shades of Grey...or 9 1/2 weeks in the 1980s....barely had an erection...not even a semi...

 

Tesla...has created a product line that people all over the world are truly excited about.

The author of 50 Shades...just copy and pasted an Ancient Book from India where people in and around that region don't view sex as a sin (Muslim countries excluded)...unlike the good 'ol Bible Belt of America (which sometimes sex is view in the same way as some Muslim countires...) 

 

Look at Ted Cruze...and his supporters trying to "slut shame" The Donald's trophy wife...

Edited April 4, 2016 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

276,000 pre-orders. Unheard of demand.

[ccap41]

I have a friend of mine who graduated a few years ago with an engineering degree and has been rocking an older WRX and is deciding between a Model 3 or a Focus RS as his next car. He's about to be one of those 276,000 as of the other day. Not sure where he stands right now but I know I'd love to be the one making that decision. Model 3/RS..hmmm...

[ccap41]

I know this is a Model 3 thread but while reading on the Model X this little paragraph stood out to me, 

 

"We’ll stop right there for a second. Zero to 60 in 3.2 seconds makes this not only the fastest SUV we’ve ever tested but also puts the Model X in some pretty serious company. It’s 0.2 second quicker than a Ferrari Enzo to 60 mph. Any questions?" 

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-tesla-model-x-p90d-ludicrous-first-test-review/

[Suaviloquent]

They're probably going to make another equity offering now.

 

The share price has rebounded.

 

Their brand value is currently off the charts. 

 

If they announce a year from now the model Y, a crossover - you know for like $45,000....

 

What are they going to get, like 500,000 orders in the span of a week?

 

It's a movement, it's a phenomenon, it's something no one has seen before. 

[oldshurst442]

It may be a movement and a phenomenon...

And I want it to never end...

 

But Ill ground my enthusiasm as Peter De Lorenzo also does not like this type of hype and frenzy...

http://www.autoextremist.com/

 

Yet another doesnt think that Tesla will deliver the goods...

 

But he thinks they will eventually deliver the goods, just not on time.

 

The Model X was a disaster launch....

Hopefully the Model 3 does not suffer the same fate.

 

This is where Tesla's game is theirs to lose....

If they dont drop the ball with the Model 3 in any way, they are home free.

[Cory Wolfe]

So, I've contemplated putting my own deposit down. It's one of those cars where the product exceeds expectations. The biggest problem I see, is how Tesla is going to deliver on each pre-order. Without a breakthrough, its been estimated that many people won't see their car until 2020. In fact, best case seems to indicate late 2019 for anyone who isn't a current Tesla owner. That is what keeps me from throwing my own $1k in (that and an imminent move).

 

By all accounts, Tesla has hit a homerun as a product, and as a business model. The sheer fact that any car can garner this many pre-orders is unheard of. People don't just line up down the sidewalk for a new Prius or a Camaro, nor the forthcoming Bolt for that matter. But, Chevy is still going to beat Tesla to production by at least a full year. Who's to say that GM can't match the Model 3's specs by that point? Would that even make a difference when the Tesla is something to behold, rather than just something to get you from point A to point B? This is where the original Volt concept could have really been the differentiator. 

[balthazar]

Let's say it reaches an even 500,000 pre-orders.

 

 

THEN WHAT??

[oldshurst442]

Let's say it reaches an even 500,000 pre-orders.

 

 

THEN WHAT??

Then Tesla better be able to deliver on that pro-order promise....that's what!!!!

 

But...you've got to admit....close to 300 000 pre-orders 3 days later is pretty impressive mojo that Tesla has got going on....

 

yes yes...continuing on with the 50 shades of gray theme...

[balthazar]

Orders are one notch away from meaningless…. if there's no product coming in a timely & volume manner.
The iron is HOT NOW… the car is -by company estimates- 2 years away!

[oldshurst442]

Orders are one notch away from meaningless…. if there's no product coming in a timely & volume manner.

The iron is HOT NOW… the car is -by company estimates- 2 years away!

But people are very well aware of the fact that the car is 2 years away...

They knew this before the lines opened up for bids.

They knew this when there were 116 000 orders.

They knew this when Musk said that the California market will be served first.

 

They knew this when the orders hit 200 000 units.

At this point, they now know that their Model 3 is probably 3 years away and not just 2.

Yet...an additional 80 000 units were placed on order with a $1000 deposit...and counting...

 

These people know...that a Chevy Bolt is coming less than a year away....yet these people dont care about the Chevy...they want a Tesla...

 

 

Im guessing the iron will stay hot for quite some time.

Again, that is if Tesla does not fumble the ball in some way...

Like I said, this is Tesla's game to lose....if they do mostly everything right, they got the game in the bag.

 

Lets not pretend like having 300 000 pre-orders is a bad thing...

Edited April 5, 2016 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

It's NOT a bad thing……. unless you aren't able to deliver.

Then the groan of discontent is all the louder.

 

Model 3 people may or may not care about the Bolt, just as Bolt people may or may not care for the Model 3. 

[David]

Seattle the evergreen state and one of the largest markets for Electric behind California is now being hit by another item. Those in the news that feel the $7500 credit by the feds and the no sales tax on electric auto's in this state is an $11,000 freebie that is NOT Needed and should be done away with.

 

Dori: Tesla hubbub is an $11,000 'scam' on Washington taxpayers

It is an interesting read and one that hits some honest real points. Should the people be subsidizing the EV auto?

 

I honestly love the Idea of an EV Auto and am excited to test drive a BOLT.  Wife is loving the idea for it as her normal commuter auto and errand runs auto. Tesla is just a Soulless looking Jelly Bean of an auto that sits way to low to the ground for me.

 

I am happy for Tesla and hope they do well but am more excited by the CUV Bolt than the Tesla 3 car.

[David]

CNET has an awesome write up by a reporter that has driven both the BOLT and the Tesla 3 and he is very positive on both. This drives home the LoveFest as he calls it of the two auto's and that Musk probably does not see the BOLT as a competitor to his Tesla 3 as he is known to support getting more EVs out to the public. It is an interesting piece for sure. I think many of us agree that the BOLT will come fully loaded with minimal if not no options. This compared to the Tesla 3 that will have options and retail much higher than the BOLT.

 

Currently Tesla is on track to cross the 200,000 EVs sold by spring of next year which means there will be NO Federal Incentive for the Tesla 3. This car will sell for more than the BOLT.

 

I am interested in seeing the Real World driving tests as you know the auto Magazines are going to compare and test against each other the Bolt to the 3 and declare a winner even though this is an apple to orange comparison.

 

I will say that GM needs to also list out all the incentive benefits available for auto purchases like Tesla Does:

 

EV Incentives

 

Thought I do see this is not updated as they do not have the Washington state listed with it's free Chargers in homes.

[Suaviloquent]

You're comparing a FWD Toad to a RWD sedan.

 

The Tesla should BE commanding $10,000 premium in its base model. 

 

You know we have quite a few posters here who scream RWD! Value! Excellence at that price!

 

And the Bolt is not excellence. It's just the first good compliance car.

 

And the federal incentives ARE marginal.

 

Which means its gets cut in half first.

 

And defending the Bolt because it'll be a poor seller to customers - retail customers at that is a terrible excuse. Suddenly it's great it'll be a blip on the radar.

 

I want electric cars to come off the tax credit teet. Tesla being the first automaker to do so already gets my respect because they take this new trend seriously. 

 

What does it say about GM if they have to through the kicthen sink into the Bolt, and it still isn't desirable? It's a wasted effort, because they have confused customers. Here's a Volt that's the best solution against range deficient EV. Now let's build an EV that's not range deficient! Wonderful - the rest of the competing EVs will no longer be range deficient! 

[oldshurst442]

Well, would you look at that...

 

Tesla's top brass realize the severity of delivering the Model 3 on time, they realize the snafus with the Model X, and this is what they had to say about it:

 

 

In a release, Tesla has assured that the problems that caused the Model X crossover to be delayed by more than a year will not be repeated when the Model 3 launches. The automaker has so far received more than 300,000 reservations for the Model 3, which was unveiled last Thursday night at Tesla’s California design studio.

Tesla has admitted that one of the root causes for the Model X’s delay was the company’s hubris in including too much new tech for the crossover’s initial launch. The automaker also said that insufficient supplier capability and not having enough internal capability to manufacture the parts in-house contributed to the delays. Just half a dozen out of more than 8,000 unique parts were affected by the delays, but that was enough to slow down the entire production process, according to Tesla.

 

 

Link to Motor Trend.com where that quote was taken from : http://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-says-issues-delayed-model-x-wont-repeated-model-3/

 

 

So...will the deliver or will they fail?

Time will tell...and only then can we talk about it...

For now...they have upwards of 300 000 pre-orders, and counting, to fulfill.

I think Tesla is professional enough to make it happen...

 

I hope that GM could sell that many Bolts as well because Im a fan of the electric vehicle.

[David]

You're comparing a FWD Toad to a RWD sedan.

 

The Tesla should BE commanding $10,000 premium in its base model. 

 

You know we have quite a few posters here who scream RWD! Value! Excellence at that price!

 

And the Bolt is not excellence. It's just the first good compliance car.

 

And the federal incentives ARE marginal.

 

Which means its gets cut in half first.

 

And defending the Bolt because it'll be a poor seller to customers - retail customers at that is a terrible excuse. Suddenly it's great it'll be a blip on the radar.

 

I want electric cars to come off the tax credit teet. Tesla being the first automaker to do so already gets my respect because they take this new trend seriously. 

 

What does it say about GM if they have to through the kicthen sink into the Bolt, and it still isn't desirable? It's a wasted effort, because they have confused customers. Here's a Volt that's the best solution against range deficient EV. Now let's build an EV that's not range deficient! Wonderful - the rest of the competing EVs will no longer be range deficient! 

-1

 

So your post is totally confusing!

 

No one has tried to hide anything. Yes Tesla 3 is a RWD and the Chevy BOLT is FWD. Neither auto is out yet and so there is no way to really JUDGE either one. Nether auto is excellent or good. They are exciting but then all new technology is.

 

If FWD is so bad then I guess Audi and all the others that build FWD auto's build terrible products.

 

FWD has NOT stopped the world from buying an auto and FWD versus RWD is more a preference than one being superior over another.

 

Who ever was defending the bolt as a poor seller? The auto is not even available for sale yet. I do think GM could have done a presale of the BOLT, not sure how many would plunk down $1000 for one but I do like the idea of getting customer commitment.

 

In regards to the coming off federal tax credit. Tesla is forced to as they have almost already approached their 200,000 allotment. So why should GM or others also not have the same use case. For transparency, then all need to be treated equal and have the same benefit of using the fed deduction.

 

How do you know the BOLT is not desirable? I know many who desire the BOLT and cannot stand the ugly jelly bean steril Tesla. So you are trying to make your own feelings into statements of fact which is also not valid.

 

In regards to throwing in the Kitchen sink. I think this is a smart way for GM to build their first long range EV. Build it with all the desired bells and whistles that people want. Why nickel and dime them to death like Tesla is doing. Build it complete with everything from the start and state the single price of the auto. I think most people will be happy to buy it as is.

 

Volt is a great solution but still burns petrol, for those that want a petrol free auto, the BOLT or Tesla 3 will be a good choice.

 

Here are the videos of the drives they did at the Tesla Event.

 

 

 

[Suaviloquent]

How are they even comparable given all they share is an electric drivetrain! that's the point I'm raising!

 

Am I supposed to start comparing something like a Focus ST or Verano 2.0T to Cadillac ATS 2.0T? 

 

Just because one shares a similar drivetrain, doesn't mean they're comparable. The Bolt and Model 3 are not in the same league. PERIOD.

 

And yes, compared to the Tesla, the Bolt isn't as desirable. I've already said I don't like any electric vehicle. But it's not even close. GM has also said they're not in it for real - they don't have a strategy to develop EV infrastructure. 

 

The Bolt is just a compliance car. Compare it to the incoming Leaf. But the Tesla is going after bigger game. The Bolt is indeed more practical. But that doesn't reconcile the fact that we NEED to remove the powertrain - namely being electric out of the mix.

 

I can't fathom now starting to say somehow say a Cadillac ATS and Chevy Sonic now compete. People buying electric, they're forced to choose from slim pickings. Okay. But once the electric car options flesh out, it'll appear just nonsensical to compare the two cars - when they speak to totally different customers.

 

And for the price gulf, the Model 3 even starting below the Chevy Bolt is just a huge victory. 

[David]

How are they even comparable given all they share is an electric drivetrain! that's the point I'm raising!

 

Am I supposed to start comparing something like a Focus ST or Verano 2.0T to Cadillac ATS 2.0T? 

 

Just because one shares a similar drivetrain, doesn't mean they're comparable. The Bolt and Model 3 are not in the same league. PERIOD.

 

And yes, compared to the Tesla, the Bolt isn't as desirable. I've already said I don't like any electric vehicle. But it's not even close. GM has also said they're not in it for real - they don't have a strategy to develop EV infrastructure. 

 

The Bolt is just a compliance car. Compare it to the incoming Leaf. But the Tesla is going after bigger game. The Bolt is indeed more practical. But that doesn't reconcile the fact that we NEED to remove the powertrain - namely being electric out of the mix.

 

I can't fathom now starting to say somehow say a Cadillac ATS and Chevy Sonic now compete. People buying electric, they're forced to choose from slim pickings. Okay. But once the electric car options flesh out, it'll appear just nonsensical to compare the two cars - when they speak to totally different customers.

 

And for the price gulf, the Model 3 even starting below the Chevy Bolt is just a huge victory. 

 

I understand the points you are stating and no one would compare an ATS to the Focus.

 

The point I am making is that the Tesla 3 is a compact RWD Sedan EV and the BOLT is a Compact FWD CUV EV. Right now the Tesla is NOT the cheaper of the two as they will not have any fed discount.Yes the BOLT will have some options but for the most part GM has said it would be pretty much loaded from the start $37,500 or $30,000 with fed discount. Tesla 3 on the other hand will be stripped at $35,000 and you option it up to $45,000 from the info they have released. 

 

Also no where do I read that GM is only making this as a compliance car. The BOLT is what forced Tesla's hand to finally deliver the model 3 after years of delays and GM has forced Nissan to move up their Generation 2 Leaf that will have between a 200- 250 mile battery. 

 

How do you figure this is compliance only and not game changer when others are responding with like auto's in range and pure EV powertrain? Nissan and Toyota never built out any infrastructure and while Tesla Supercharge locations are stated as being available to everyone, I know that the locations in Seattle are clearly marked as Tesla owners only. So I have not seen any true public infrastructure by Tesla.

 

Now yes West Coast is ahead of much of the US in terms of building out public charging setups but that has not stopped many other auto companies from building or announcing EV's that are coming.

 

So this takes away your Compliance issue also.

 

Tesla is a Niche Player that is growing much like Apple, but their are far more people who do not use Apple and there will be far more people that will not use Tesla for various reasons.

 

You like Tesla 3 style, Great go for buying one and enjoy supporting an American Auto company.

 

I like BOLT style and will support another great American auto company. 

 

Either way America wins.

[Suaviloquent]

But no I don't like the Model 3's style.

 

Do people really forget what I post. Lemme grab an anecdote for ya....

 

Nope I don't like the way it looks. Wrong again. Oh my... but the Bolt is mash-up of what many commentators sin on other vehicles.

 

But the way Mary Barra answered the question of them attempting to develop EV infrastructure she flat out said that GM has no EV strategy beyond marketing their cars.

 

And DFelt, I going to assume you've mixed how the federal discount works... It's marginal. Which means when you pass the quota, you still get a rebate, but it is reduced in half. Then you sell another block amount, and its cut in half again. After that block amount. which is a lot of sales, it finally goes away.

 

I'm going to slam it home that the Bolt and Model 3 don't compete against each other. 

 

And that is a notion that makes the Bolt look better. Because it alleviates itself from having to live up to the expectations of the Model 3.

 

And it's truly a compliance car. GM needs to increase it's corporate FE. Tesla doesn't. Any traditional automaker is still making compliance cars.

 

And I truly believe that GM does not want the Bolt to be a wild success. It's because they want no part in helping it succeed. The Bolt will sell becauase of what it says on brochure - it'll comply to the new standards.

 

The Model 3 - it speaks for itself. The people have spoken, a huge chunk of would-be alternative vehicle buyers are voting with their wallets as we speak. And remember - Tesla only needs to convert half or even less of the pre-orders to make it into the big leagues.

 

Plus, I like how the most expensive component; with the Panasonic/Tesla partnership, will result in batteries made in America. The Bolt can have it written in the fine print, that the most expensive component is from Korea.

 

Now...I gotta be honest, I'm not wowed by the styling. But it's purely function over form. How some people say it looks sleek, well it's a happy accident that it appears to be so.

 

[ccap41]

I'm not sure if you guys have looked into the 7500 tax credit or not but I came across it awhile ago while looking into the whole EV thing.

 

" Will I be ineligible to claim the credit if my income is too high?

There is no maximum income limitation for claiming the New Plug-in Tax Credit.  As long as a taxpayer otherwise qualifies for the credit and has a sufficient tax liability for the year, the taxpayer can claim the New Plug-in Tax Credit to reduce that tax liability down to zero (but not below zero). After the taxpayer has reduced his or her tax liability to zero, the taxpayer will lose any remaining excess New Plug-in Tax Credit, assuming the vehicle was used solely for personal driving. "

[Suaviloquent]

So again, the tax credit can only be used up to the full amount of liability, not excess.

 

Which means if you owe more tax, you benefit more.

 

Which still means people will pay sticker before the incentives have any part to play.

[smk4565]

More will be revealed at Part 2 of the Model 3 reveal.  I think we'll have a better idea of the car then, but Tesla does not make slow cars.  That will be the big difference between the Model 3 and the Bolt.  Doesn't look like the Bolt will offer all wheel drive, the Tesla will.  And a lot of the price upgrade on a Tesla is bigger battery and adding the second motor.  Elon probably said $42,000 is typical price because he figures many will get the dual motor car with a higher range.

[smk4565]

The Bolt and Model 3 don't compete because one car has 300,000 pre-orders, the other has squat.

[ccap41]

So again, the tax credit can only be used up to the full amount of liability, not excess.

 

Which means if you owe more tax, you benefit more.

 

Which still means people will pay sticker before the incentives have any part to play.

That is correct. And if they are getting a load for the full amount(not sure if that's even possible..) then you would be getting a loan for the full 37500(plus TTL) for the Bolt and hopfully you know your tax situation and then you'll know how much you should get back but your still in for the full amount up front. 

[Suaviloquent]

No matter what price you pay for the Bolt, you only get a 200 mile range.

 

But with the Tesla offering closer to 300 miles of range in optional upgrades, and at the same time sport sedan rivaling (or given how the Model S is the quick sedan on the planet) or beating speed, how much of the price of the Tesla actually hot air?

 

None. The $42,000 typical option range could perhaps include dual motors and like 240 miles of range. I just see Tesla being a far more credibile brand for electric vehicles, because atleast they're not worried about their gasoline vehicles poaching the sales potential of their plug-in electric vehicle.

 

Or worried about quashing the premise of their premier plug-in hybrid to exist.

 

The Bolt gets rid of range anxiety for the most part and is more practical. If GM used their scale as such a large automaker to impact the charging infrastructure rate of development, the Volt would be completely lacking any real reason to exist. 

[balthazar]

And DFelt, I going to assume you've mixed how the federal discount works... It's marginal. Which means when you pass the quota, you still get a rebate, but it is reduced in half. Then you sell another block amount, and its cut in half again. After that block amount. which is a lot of sales, it finally goes away.

Incorrect : the phaseout of the rebate goes by the calendar, not sales volume.

 

 

It also goes by manufacturer, not model. Tesla is going to surpass the 200K unit mark before the Model 3 goes into production.

IMO, a few Model 3 owners will see $1875 in a rebate, but zero will see $7500.

 

I wonder how many depositors were counting on that full $7500 in their budgeting.

[Suaviloquent]

Okay, my bad. I read a different source what made that obliviously erroneous claim.

 

It still doesn't matter even if the Tesla can't get the credit. It surely affects the deposits for sure.

 

Closer to production may have like 500,000 orders. Again, even turning 30% of them is huge for Tesla, an single EV car on its own.

 

Because the two vehicles are not comparable. One is a a bona-fide premium car. The premium being RWD and being a Tesla, being sold for a very fair price.

 

And even $42,000 for a typically optioned Model 3, being a car only 20% smaller than the Model S yet being perhaps half as expensive is a huge breakthrough.

 

It's pretty clear though. Lump vehicles with the vehicles they actually compete with. It'll be Bolt v Leaf. For Tesla is Tesla v. everyone else. And with those, it's no contest.

 

You know I did read an article about a 2017 BMW 330e today. 12 miles of electric range. Plug-in. I laughed at it. How incompetent the roundel has become....

[Suaviloquent]

Plus the Volt just recently sold 100,000 copies. Add a couple thousand plug-in Sparks, and this year's full sales of Volt, and by the time the Model 3 starts the first real bulk of deliveries...

 

Any potential pricing aid AFTER taxes the Bolt will have will be most likely be limited too. 

 

And the way Tesla has planned production, the highest trim, loaded models will make the initial production runs. So I think people buying the Tesla are not as sensitive to price.

 

Again. I would refrain from comparing the cars. Because they just can't be compared if the only basis of comparison is base model range.

[smk4565]

Agreed about the Volt sales.  GM will use up a lot of their plug-in and EV credits too.  Maybe the 2017 Bolts have a credit, but in 2018 they will probably have used their credits up too.   Then you get down to how good is the vehicle for the sticker price, with no incentives to buy it.  That favors Tesla well.  People talk about the $42,000 Model 3 like it is a lot of money to Tesla fan base, it isn't really.  There are Toyota Avalons and Audi A4s selling for $42,000, the Model 3 could eat their lunch.  

 

Think of the $55,000 Model 3 that could be faster than a Corvette or BMW M3.  Then the Tesla looks like insane value.  We really need to see part 2 of the reveal and get the other info.  I am excited about the car though.

[David]

Bolt advertised 200 miles and then GM clearly states that the battery takes 9hrs to fully charge at 25 miles per hour so the battery is really a 225 mile range battery. Tesla states 215 miles but has not stated anything else about actual charging time or amount of miles per charge.

 

Yes I know you say you do not like any EV but that the BOLT is less desirable so you imply the Tesla is, so you like the tesla more than the bolt.

 

The reader is the one who will be left with the implied meaning based on how one writes their words.

[Suaviloquent]

The biggest telling clue is that when we do a thought experiment where every car and truck available was already fully electric anyways and the Bolt and Tesla were just among two of the new models, would they still be comparable?

 

Absolutely not. 

[Suaviloquent]

Bolt advertised 200 miles and then GM clearly states that the battery takes 9hrs to fully charge at 25 miles per hour so the battery is really a 225 mile range battery. Tesla states 215 miles but has not stated anything else about actual charging time or amount of miles per charge.

 

Yes I know you say you do not like any EV but that the BOLT is less desirable so you imply the Tesla is, so you like the tesla more than the bolt.

 

The reader is the one who will be left with the implied meaning based on how one writes their words.

 

Yeah, but we don't know if that is the average charge rate. Because chargers start to reduce current and ultimately the closer to 100% you get, the more the charge is a trickle.

 

 

And the Tesla is more desirable. It just is. I don't actually consider the car to myself to be desirable to me. Remember, the pennies in the piggy are waiting for either a Camaro or CT6 or if I'm deluded, Continental. But I wholly enjoy how every automaker has been so complacent which has caused this defection to Tesla.

[smk4565]

The defection to Tesla thus far has been in the $100,000 sedan segment.  This hurts the M5 or CTS-V which are a small % of the overall line, and it hurts cars like the A8 and S-class.   For most automakers, Tesla has yet to make an impact.  Once they get into the $40k segment, they will start to feel it, even more so if Tesla makes a $30,000 car.  Once they hit the mainstream, the establishment is in for a wake up call.  

[Suaviloquent]

Yup and that's huge. Because those top cars represent brand image. They represent the secret cause of those automakers.

 

No one bought the Tata Nano because it had the image of a poor person's car. Or rather India's car for the masses. 

 

"Car for the masses" branding ends up failing because being everything to everyone means being nothing to no one.

 

Like I said before. Tesla is not too big to fail yet. But they're just too valuable to lose.

 

They're going to do most likely another equity offering, but their shareholders on the secondary markets quite frankly are easily pleased. Show a vehicle concept and boom! Total rally on the exchanges.

 

They might do this. 1. Equity offering soon. 2. Before phase 2, do a stock split. 3. Report 2016 FY earnings. Highlight cost recovery in Q4. 4. Phase 2 reveal, watch the stock rally once more. 5. Yet another equity offering.

 

6. Launch car, and so begins the ascension.

[PurdueGuy]

The biggest telling clue is that when we do a thought experiment where every car and truck available was already fully electric anyways and the Bolt and Tesla were just among two of the new models, would they still be comparable?

 

Absolutely not. 

 

You would be correct if this were the case. It isn't, and you aren't - the Bolt and base Model 3 DO compete with each other.  Want some proof? I'm seriously considering an all-electric car for my wife's commuter vehicle in a few years, and I'm comparing the Bolt to the base Model 3.  They are competing with each other for my money.  If there were dozens and dozens of options, that would be a different market.  And I fully acknowledge that for some buyers, it's no competition. Whether it's styling, or some specific feature, or RWD vs FWD, or perceived quality, or whatever the reason, for some people one or the other vehicle isn't even a consideration, and they're not competing for that buyer's money.  But for some people, they are competing, and your feelings on it doesn't make that any less true.  

I would agree that there's essentially no competition between the Bolt and a mid-range or loaded Model 3.

[ccap41]

They're only competing because they are both electric though, right? That is literally the only thing bringing them to comparisons.