zetaman

that was easy... it's all downhill

Why would they do something like this? The fact checkers failed on this one.

sloppy work...high enviro creditials is highly valued and shouldn't be messed with. could damage the brand if you're not careful.

mind you, i did see this promotion some time back. There hasn't been any saab promotion for quite some time.

GM's impact in Australia is through Holden - without Holden there really isn't much to GM down here. Holden is the hero brand and for the sake of the local GM operation it should be protected - diluting Holden by introducing Chevrolet serves no one well.

Chevrolet is the everyman brand in the US... in Australia it means nothing. It would make no sense for Holden (GM) to introduce another brand to Australia. While Holden still exists in Australia as a part of GM the Volt can only be a Holden.

CPF will say no, because of CAFE, CO2, and build constraints within Elizabeth itself. And you know as well as I do GM will not build another plant in Australia, or the UAW will go to war and GM can't afford to take back the Health care cost.

Like your said this 2 door is old, but zeta itself is old if you go all the way back to when Mike Simcoe 1st started it, late 90's.

Age of the architecture has little to do with it. Your beloved Sigma (co-developed by Holden) is even older, what's your point?

You and what army will be putting me on this iceberg? As for this car, here are the facts, no business case, no export program, no signoff by CPF, not going to happen. This was built to steal the thunder on Ford's new products at Melbourne's auto show, and to celebrate various anniversaries within Holden, nothing more, nothing less.

All of that is true.. to a point. I wouldn't write off getting the Coupe60 produced just yet. The last Monaro started life exactly the same way as did the soon-to-be-released Camaro - design studies/show cars. Huge public reaction motivated the decision to build.

Coupe60 has elicited a phenomenal reaction here - enormous crowds and palpable excitement around the stand (and not just the Holden fans). Like the last Monaro, this is a car that transcends brand loyalty. Punters are alreading trying to place deposits at Holden dealers.

The decision may be forced on Holden due to capacity issues but I doubt they couldn't make a business case - the advantage of zeta architecture is the flexibility inherent in it's design that permits multiple configurations with minimal investment. It's a cheaper car to modify than even the previous platform - and that was made into many versions (sedan, coupe, 2dr ute, 4dr ute, 4wd, lwb, suv).

Holden's been sitting on this car for some time - since the Monaro/GTO project got canned a few years back, and they've been waiting for the chance to show it off. I bet the plan is to use the huge public response Holden knew would come in order to support the business case - Holden wants to build this car.

Holden apparently developed Monaro/GTO to rolling prototype prior to getting nixed by GMNA. This could just be a modified version of the prototype used for the birthday celebration but still without plans for production. My not-so-secret desire is to see this get the go ahead... Unfortunately, GM excels at managing expectations - it usually ***ps all over them

To tell the truth, the plan GM had to bring the wagon and Ute here together was a stinker. That plan called for the Ute to be all high-end V8s with the wagon nothing but V6 automatics.

That was a stupid plan.

I don't think we've heard the last of the wagon.

Wow... Is that right? A V6 only sportwagon is a bit of a misnomer and a V8-only Ute really limits the potential, unecessarily. A buyer could get very frustrated by the limited choices.

It's a bit like the carrot and the stick approach - dangle the carrot to draw the in customer by offering variety of body styles, and then whack them with a stick by telling them they can't get what they want.

You may be correct regarding the wagon - it wouldn't be the first time GMNA has backflipped over a zeta no-go decision. I've never considered a wagon before but I'm really looking forward to the Commodore Sportwagon - if it comes in a diesel I think I'm in.

I know the 4 door Crewman is going to be shown at Chicago, now I hear that the Ute may also only be shown in Chicago and not in NY. I also hear GM Bean Counters are looking at the pros and cons of bringing the Pontiac ST to the USA once again. Remember what happened when they looked at the Sportwagon? Just thought y'all should know so your not caught by the short hairs once again.

Shameless scaremongering, PCS!! Really, that’s almost beneath you :AH-HA_wink: Btw, your sig: TICK-TOCK! Don't forget GM is a business, it's not here for anyone's personal self gratification! is a little odd. Aside from the fairly obvious pleonasm don't you think good business fulfills a need and makes the customer feel gratified? Shouldn't that be GM's mission?

A user on another site, MonaroSS, has produced a few chops of how a Crewman might look – def worth a look

MonaroSS Crewman renderings

Some of you guys have got a thin grasp of reality and some of you are just making stuff up.

1) VE (or zeta) is not a pig, even when compared to smaller cars

2008 Cadillac CTS curb mass = 3,872 (V6 automatic).

It's a full size smaller than G8. 2008 CTS: Length / Width / Height: 191.6 in / 72.5 in / 58 in

G8 GT curb mass = 3,995 (V8 auto)

G8: Length / Width / Height: 4982 mm (196.1 in) / 1899 mm (74.8 in) / 1465 mm (57.7 in)

So there seems little advantage in weight-saving by expanding Sigma into larger models.

2) Zeta was never delayed

Holden was developing zeta independant of GMNA and their endless indecision. Holden never stopped development of VE

3) It's unlikely Alpha will be designed for V8. In order to make Alpha lightweight it's being designed for I4s and V6s without the required added weight being engineering for the high torque outputs of V8s. It's not in any way intended as the zeta replacement.

4) VE (the original zeta) has a 6 year lifecycle after which the replacement will likely continue on a modified zeta - Zeta is not heading to trucks

You don't need a gun to subdue a target, at least not the ones I go after. There are many ways to skin a cat. :AH-HA_wink:

mmmeeeeooowwwww! puuuuuurrrrrrr....puuuuuuuurrrrrr..... :AH-HA_wink:

Agreed.

More on this over at CZ28.com:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread...d=1#post5104484

I'm feeling pretty good about this despite what PCS has to say.

Thanks for the link, Camino, I feel a little more confident knowing more of Reuss' experience. If Reuss is really a "car guy" rather than an accountant (no offense, PCS :AH-HA_wink: ) then it could indeed be good for Holden. Car guys have been good to Holden - Peter Hanenberger was Chairman & MD (and a GM Group VP) until 2004, and is largely credited with the development of VE as well as radically overhauling the manufacturing capacity and processes.

With his performance background, maybe Reuss is a good fit - No doubt we'll soon see.

As I said, the assimilation begins. I take no particular glee in that, other than the fact there is only one GM. GM needed unity, it was a conflicted organization. With this perhaps there will be a single direction now.

A single direction? While I agree that GM needs better focus I believe the unintentional consequence of being a fractured organisiation is that GM does niche models better than anyone else - Great cars like CTS, Corvette, VE, most of the Opels and soon the Volt.

Toyota does "single direction" really well but look at the product.... in the most part homogenised appliances without much soul but appealling to the masses. Hopefully GM doesn't lose sight of their strengths, and then learn how to capitalise on these strengths.

It's not a dual role. His position as a GM AP VP is MD of Holden. His position is analogous to Hans Demant's as GM Europe VP and MD Adam Opel. More significant is that the head of GM Holden is just a GM AP VP, while the head of GM Daewoo is a full GM VP (but not Group VP), even though all both report to Nick Reilly, GM Group VP in charge of GM Asia Pacific.

Thanks for the additional info too. My concern, as previously stated, is simply that this is a reflection of Holden being drawn into the GLobal business. Holden is no longer a small GM subsidiary, quite different to the rest of the GM group (producing a single large architecture for local consumption) and the decision to continue or discontinue platforms/facilities is no longer really their own. Not so long ago Holden was pretty much left to it's own devices so long as it remained a viable operation.

Or alternatively, maybe this really means nothing at all ....who knows

I hate to say it, but this post will make PCS' day.

True, I suppose. But neither my post, or PCS glee will affect the reality one way or another - no matter how influential he claims to be... :AH-HA_wink:

That may have been, but not this time.

Perhaps that's true but 6 months is a very short stint in any role.

My greatest concern is the dual role - VP GMAP & MD Holden. PCS, as you well know Holden values it's isolation from the rest of the GM group as a sense of "autonomy". Being a forgotten outpost had it's upsides. Reuss' dual role in AP will dilute that sense of isolation and since his responsibility extends to the region, decisions to cut models or move production facilities will be made to ensure Regional performance, and not solely at the national level.

For example, if there's a business case to save money by moving Holden production off-shore it's easier to make that decision at the Regional level rather than at the national level. Reuss' dual role creates a conflict. In any case, I think it's fair to say that Holden is now well and truly drawn into the great pillowy bossom of mother GM.

These guys just hop from post to post on their way up the Global corporate ladder. In a fat multi-tiered corporation like GM these guys struggle and compete to make names for themselves in the short time they're at their post - much like politicians do.

The downside is that the eye is on short-term success, turning annual profits, and not the long term

Clarksons mantra - never let the truth stand in the way of a good story

That really is too funny. They got very excited about the whole "hatchback" thing but I have to say that tent came in handy waiting for roadside assistance after blowing a piston out bush....jk

Not really, they are more arrogant than Americans, need I say more?

hello POT

let me introduce you to KETTLE....

Ahhh, zetaman, my old friend. Slumming are we? How are things at GMOutsidenews? You know as well as I do that anybody's grandmother can add things to wikipedia. I am speaking in legal terminology, since anything Holden owns is legally GM's, since GM owns Holden lock, stock, and barrel, down to the smallest screw that is in the VE. Have a great afternoon, I know I'm having a great morning.

G'Day Mate! :AH-HA_wink:

I'm just fine, thanks. I know, I know..... you made a good point regarding Wikipedia - pure laziness on my part.... I't hardly level 1 evidence is it. But it's still Holden, not GM

It was filmed at GM's Lang Lang.

Of course, I know you really mean General Motors Holden Lang Lang Vehicle Proving Ground..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lang_Lang%2C_Victoria

See it Drive is usually fairly raw but honest report on new vehicles but this one's pretty lame - it's just a press release montage.

That's my feeling too, why would I want a BMW copycat, when I can have a real BMW, and not a Downunder Pretender should I so desire?

Good for you! Each to their own though... having happily owned 2 late model BMWs I can atest they make some good cars, but definitely not good value. And if money is no object there are still better drives around.

Next up my money will go to the downunder pretender - value-packed with good safety credentials, excellent dynamics and a good size to boot! Oh, and a fine looking ride, too :AH-HA_wink:

Oh but it does, and many magazines here have made reference to the close looks to BMW too.

I suppose if you put a BMW grille on any car it'll start looking likke a BWM....

That's because it was! Mike Simcoe 1st started work on that vehicle then. He first started his BMW benchmarks at that time.

The BMW benchmark they set was for the driving experience, NOT the styling. There is a difference. It doesn't look like a BMW of any model or year.

Do you now? Well we shall see, it seems this person has some people within GM who think as he does. The Tree Huggers and the U.S. Government are also helping his cause although they don't know it, but in the political battle within GM, they are helping more than they could ever know. Camaro and G8 for now are safe, but anything after that is well, it's not looking good to say the least. I personally think Zeta will fall under it's own weight of 4000 + pounds and CAFE standards, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens. Ask yourself this, what area of the world is not getting Zeta, then ask yourself why?

As for Lutz, time is marching on, better hurry! Tick, tock, tick, tock.

PCS, you posts are beginning to read like children's stories - thin on facts and high on drama... much like the brothers Grimm :AH-HA_wink:

Maybe it's time you drew a line in the sand and step over it...