LucerneOwner

I read in a 2007 Lucerne promo of the "NEW DOUBLE ISOLATED” powertrain mounting system. Does anyone know whether this is different/better than they used in 2006? My own experience with my 2006 CX is that the engine noise isolation is not as good as it could be, and not as good as it was in my previous 1999 LeSabre. Otherwise, it's a nice, quiet car, especially after the source of an annoying vibration under acceleration was found & corrected by the dealer. If better mounts are now available, I'd be interested in retrofitting them to my 2006, if that's possible.

EUREKA & WUNDERBAR -- IT'S FIXED!!! Thank you ALL, especially ponchoman49, Sajeev Mehta and others who have been so informative and/or supportive during this C&G Forum topic in my hoped-for clarification of annoying engine growl/noise problems in my 2006 LUCERNE CX. I started out wondering if I was alone in my particular disappointment in this car, and not being very knowledgable generally in this subject matter. After these 50+ posts and a little additional research, I was much better able to articulate my dissatisfaction to my dealer, and with more confidence from understanding and knowing I was not alone. I was also somewhat lucky, in that there is now a new service manager there, who intervened (after my regular service advisor brushed me off in this third visit for the same problems), and decided to have his best technician revisit the situation. Well, unlike the previous go-around, this guy was just what the doctor ordered -- knew right away what I was complaining about, and said he had some ideas for a solution. Both he and the manager were gone by the time I picked up the car, but he managed very significant improvement in BOTH situations: (1) brief growl/shudder accelerating from a stop, and (2) excessive engine noise in the cabin at all speeds when accelerating. I called back this morning to give my thanks & positive feedback and find out what they did. Here's what I THINK he said: there's apparently an adjustable strap that limits how much the engine can 'rock' on the mounts during acceleration. If it rocks too far, then both problems (1) & (2) above can occur, in part because too much resulting angle on the exhaust can cause contact (with something). It's amazing how much improvement a half-inch adjustment of that strap made. I think this Forum has achieved one of its primary purposes, namely, to educate and give better insight into complex car problems. Another lesson, is NOT to give up when you believe something is just not right, and the service manager thanked me for that instead of just going away as a disgruntled customer. Thanks again to all, as my CX is now quiet enuf to satisfy even a persnickity quiet-freak like me ... no, it's not perfect, but I never said it had to be.

I think several factors are playing in on the excessive noise of the 3800 Lucerne. The G-body in general as others have stated does have a tendancy to vibrate at certain speeds. Litterally every one of them seems to do it at one speed or another. This tells me that the G-body resonates a bad frequency when either a certain speed is reached or a certain engine RPM is met. Buick V6's have an off idle roughness due to there 90 degree nature and old design. Balance shafts were introduced for the 1988 model year to help curb this. But we must remember that the old H-body LeSabres/Deltas has much lower body/frame stiffness and thus absorbed what vibration was left from the 3800 motor. This is why I firmly believe the current super stiff G-body needs very special attention to engine/transmission mounts, exhaust routing and muffler decibels. There is also the curiosity of the 2006-2007 Lucerne version of the 3800. It is now in Series III guise yet puts out 3 less Hp than the smaller LaCrosse/GP at 197 and 3 less torque also at 227. It is even worse when compared to the 1995-2005 Series II version of this engine which made 205 HP and 230 torque. The Lucerne weights in at nearly 3800 lbs in base CX form and 3900 or so with the CXL trim. The only axle used with the Lucerne is the lazy 2.86:1 gear which is there to help offset the extra 300-400 lbs of weight for highway mileage. Getting off the line is going to be tougher for a less powerful engine with lazy gears in a heavy full size sedan which is going to increase noise some. The Lucerne is geared for an ultra quiet interior with very low wind noise and road noise. The one negative aspect of this is that the old 3800 is going to be heard much easier than before over the serenity of the cabin hush. At a guess and hunch, I would be willing to bet that GM skimped a bit on the total quiet tuning thing with the Lucerne to keep the base price under 26K for it's introduction in 2006 with common parts bin exhaust systems and engine/tranny mounts but I could be wrong on some of that. I can confirm however that the Lucernes exhaust is louder than my 2000 LeSabre and any older 90's LeSabres/88's when you are outside of the car and the engine is revved up. It has a more sporty snap to it which goes against the whole quiet tuning thing. Perhaps a visit to the muffler shop wouldn't hurt to see if a quieter exhaust system is offered. I would also keep pestering GM about this. They have a tendancy to usher in improvements in the middle and end of a given cars production run to try and cut down on customer dissatisfaction/complaints. The 3 Lucernes I drove were all 2006 models. I have yet to try out a 2007 or soon to be 2008 to see if the problem is any different. Of course the easiest fix would have been to offer the 3.6 liter DOHC V6 as in the LaCrosse CSX. That engine in any body I have driven is a marvel for smoothness and quietness that rivals the best from overseas but thats GM for ya!

Thanks for your additional insight on this problem. I have have carefully and respectfully drafted a 1-page letter to my Buick Service Advisor (cc: to the Service Manager) which I will take with me in my next service visit. I have included your insightful historical perspectives (paraphrased for brevity) and even offered to cooperate with them in resolving/mitigating this issue. I specifically asked if there are other TSBs or aftermarket products that would be helpful. If nothing comes of their efforts, I figure this letter will be a good background show of good faith and cooperation on my part when/if I take it to the next level (Regional Manager or even Bob Lutz himself). Just curious: if I pursued a custom fix on my own, is replacement by the 3.6L DOHC V6 possible, and, if so, about what kind of cost might be incurred?

I'm sorry but how can you not notice something or not pay attention to an aspect of the car you feel is important? You're putting down 20+ grand on a car you should pay attention to every aspect of it ....

I already explained that ... distractions plus my focus on hopeful remediation of residual problems in my 1999 (wind/road/etc). It never occurred to me that Buick would take a step backward from having already solved engine noise so beautifully in the 1999 LeSabre, but I still fault myself for missing it. Keep in mind we're talking somewhat subtle effects here, altho very annoying once one's attention becomes focussed solely on them. As far as memory/mind degrading with age, come back when you're 70 or so and tell me you're just as sharp as you are now. Not all of us would be so lucky.

As far as tomb-like silence...why? It's nice to hear an engine if it sounds good...it also lets you know the car is alive and you're driving more than an appliance. Of course there's a difference between refined and raspy.

Exactly, plus my priorities & viewpoint are just different. To me silence is golden and is the essence of quality & luxury feeling in a car. i don't like to hear an engine even if it does sound good, whatever that means, and I certainly don't need noise to tell me the car is alive ... I see movement outside and I feel power/acceleration.

Two things:

How is the sound in comparison to the LaCrosse? I mean, it's the same engine.. is there the same problem with sound and harshness?

Also, is it possible that the car is so quiet, that now the engine's growl is more evident?

Don't know about the LaCrosse. Road/wind noise (& therefore QUIET-TUNING) isn't an issue at low speeds where the noticable Lucerne V6 growl accelerating from zero occurs. On the other hand, when accelerating at higher speeds, or downshifting on mountain upgrades at highway speeds, the loud engine/exhaust noise might be masked better prior to Q-T of those 2 noise sources. Even so, there's no question in my mind that the Lucerne has much more engine noise under load and/or accelerating at higher speeds than did my 1999 LeSabre. My friends and I used to marvel how unobtrusively the 1999 would downshift on Arizona mountain upgrades -- we would barely be aware of it because the transmission was so silky-smooth and the engine so quiet. If I understand Ponchoman49 correctly, this higher speed engine noise in an accelerating Lucerne probably has more to do with the exhaust system than the engine mounts.

If you resolve your engine issues, you may want to consider this as your next accessory if you value quiet...

Dynamat

Hey, cool! Never heard of it. Thanks.

Did you test drive the car before you bought it? Did the Lucerne you test drove do this or is this something exceptional to your car?

I'm ashamed to say I don't think I was paying close enuf attention in my test drive, and didn't wring it out thoroughly enuf. I may have been distracted by the salesman and my wife being in the car with me, and the newness of the car. Also, I was focussed on the alleged reduction in wind noise in the QUIET-TUNING hype, since that was the primary source of noise in my 1999 LeSabre. I was impressed. Because engine noise was not an issue in the 1999, I guess it never occurred to me that it might be in the Lucerne, and kinda tuned out that possibility. I don't know for sure ... the old memory is fading now. I do know that the 2 subsequent Lucerne rentals I had (during servicing of mine) had the engine problem, but by then I was looking for it. And now we know all 3 Lucernes that Panchoman49 tested and that Sajeev Mehta tested (and that CR tested) had the engine noise/vibration discussed here. My suspicion is that many/most Lucernes have this problem (except maybe when the planets align), but that many people don't notice or care. I've even come across several people on these web Forums who LIKE a growly sound coming from under the hood ... a macho thing, I guess. There may not be many persnickety folks, like me, for whom SILENCE is so very golden, and/or who were previously spoiled by a super-quiet engine like the (late model year) 1999 LeSabre, as described by Panchoman49.

Lexus LS Hybrid.

Pretty good choice, but too pricey for me. I think, if I can get this excesssive engine noise/vibration in my LUCERNE CX rectified, that I will have perhaps the finest luxury sedan for the money in the world. I put on W/W Goodyear ComforTreds (quieter/smoother than orig Bridgestones), which not only dress it up spiffy, but make it sportier-looking ... give the APPEARANCE of 19" wheels while still retaining the softer ride of its 16" wheels. The car is that metallic sand color ... can't remember what they call it. You like Meryl Streep? I like Meryl Streep. Cheers!

Have you considered ear-plugs, or those fancy noise-cancelling headphones?

It seems like you don't want to hear ANYTHING when you drive.

You're CLOSE! I don't want to hear anything from the car itself (or wind or road). Ideally, I would like to have utter silence, except for music from the CD or radio, or quiet conversation.

I have driven several Lucerne 3800's and have had a lot of experience with G-body LeSabres and Park Aves and the older 90's H-body LeSabres and Bonnevilles. When comparing the H-body cars like the Bonneville and LeSabre, I did find that the Buick and Olds versions were quieter overall due to different exhaust tuning. GM also investing some money into the 3800 during the 1999 model year with new heads and injectors that resulted in a smoother and lower idle and noticeably quieter operation. The raspiness of the 95-early 99 3800's gave way to a muted moan that was more pleasing to the ears. Fast forward to the G-body LeSabre/Park Ave. My 2000 LeSabre did exhibit a slight shudder and roughness when first accelerating but was smooth thereafter. A few 2001-2002 Park Aves didn't seem to do this. I had a 2005 LeSabre for a rental and it was easily the smoothest and quietest of the 3800 G-bodies I have driven. No shudder or roughness at all. Imagine my surprise then when all 3 Lucernes I test drove had what I can only describe as untypical 3800 noise. They all exhibited the off idle shudder, were noisy when floored and had raspy sounding exhausts with the car in park, drivers door open and foot nudging the gas pedal revving the engine. This leaves me to believe that the exhaust design on this car is definately one factor in the dissapointing amount of noise this engine exhibits along with the engine mount design. It is a known fact that Buick V6 engines are very sensative and partial to good motor mount design. The old carbed Buick 3.8(231 CID) V6's of the 80's were notorious for killing motor mounts. Litterally every one I drove or owned or sold through our old dealership had a broken drivers side engine mount which caused a major shudder as the engine lifted upon accelleration. Napa made an aftermarket hard rubber replacement mount that made a big difference in the way this engine felt when driving and accelerating. The carbed 3.0 liter V6 from 1982-1985 in the front drive cars required a special mounting system to obtain an acceptable smoothness compared to the Chevy 60 degree 2.8 of the same era. Not that we can really compare todays 3800 Series III to the old carbed V6's but it is interesting to note that even though this engine has been totally revamped compared to that time era, it still suffers if the mounting setup and exhausts aren't perfectly setup. I would definately pursue the exhaust and mounting system in your Lucerne and possibly take it to several different dealers until an acceptable remedy is reached.

This Ponchoman49 post is an amazing revelation that corroborates EXACTLY my experience with engines in my quiet/smooth (late model year) 1999 LeSabre Ltd & noisy/gruff (early model year) 2006 Lucerne CX. Thank you! Thank you! I had hoped that, if I persisted long enuf on this Forum, someone knowledgable would come along and illuminate this most disappointing aspect of my Lucerne CX. I will copy/print this info and take it with me to my next service appointment. I think the dealer may learn something from this which will hopefully enable him to mitigate the problem(s). I think he was on the right track when he followed TSB protocol and replaced 1 engine mount (he said orig DESIGN was defective) and then used a procedure to allow the engine to "self-align" itself to all 4 mounts to minimize mounting stress. That partially corrected the annoying brief buzz/vibration accelerating from zero, but not the general noise level under acceleration at other speeds. However, I don't believe the exhaust system has yet been addressed. QUESTION: Do you know of any current aftermarket components (like that NAPA hard rubber engine mount or exhaust components) that would help my situation now? That might be very helpful, although the dealer might tell me my warranty would be voided. Thanks again!

They have a history of favoring foreign brands over domestic ones...... even when the cars come off the same assembly line. When one displays bias like that it is hard to deem the rest of the information as reliable.

I haven't kept up with CR's reviews over the years, but I wouldn't be surprised that they favored certain foreign brands, especially Toyota/Lexus. My take on the domestic car industry is that they became complacent, uncompetitive and unresponsive to the public's needs & desires. Finally they got the message and some domestics have made significant strides getting back into the game, but the stiff competition is still there. I can't find online what CR had to say about my old 1999 LeSabre. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have liked the wallowy ride or handling, but that is of little consequence to me, as handling is not an issue for a very conservative driver like me. For me, silence is golden, and I can't imagine CR would have anything disparaging to say about engine noise in the 1999 .... maybe high speed wind noise, but not low speed engine noise, even under acceleration. it was, simply, an amazing car in that respect, as my friends who rode in it can attest, so it is most disappointing to me that Buick took a step backwards in this one respect.

That is CR's way of saying "Pushrods suck". Keep in mind that the method's that CR uses to test cars...especially domestic cars...is not going to be anything remotely similar to normal driving.

.... and yet I find their assessments of pros and cons to be pretty much in line with those of my own experience as a conservative driver (average 24.3 MPG, 1st 8000 miles, balanced city/highway), so why do you judge them so harshly?

Bob Lutz isn't going to take care of the problem. If the dealer can't fix it, contact Buick costumer service and make them do something about the problem.

Thanks, I've done that, and their canned answer was, "We here at the Customer Assistance Center are not able, nor equipped to make any specific or conclusive diagnosis over the internet as to how your engine's volume can be decreased. It is for this reason that we rely heavily on the Service Staff at Buick dealerships to provide our customers with any type of mechanical diagnosis .....". In other words, there is no such thing as corporate customer service. As mentioned earlier, I've gone the dealership service route, with limited success, but will try once more. I'm very disappointed in this cop-out from BUICK.COM ... you'd think they could run this by their R&D/design experts and/or the people at Buick who create/issue the Technical Service Bulletins to the dealerships.

[email protected]

Send Uncle Bob an email.

Make sure it's nice and professional. Give him your best description of the problem, and describe evrything you have tried to correct this problem. Make sure to mention that this could be your last Buick, and you wish it was just as reliable and satisfactory as your LeSabre.

Who knows if he will respond, and what he will say or do if he does, but it's just another outlet for you to voice your complaints. GM needs all the satisfied customers they can get, and if you aren't satisfied, they should hear about it.

That... or if worse comes to worse, you and the Lucerne can drive to Detroit and have the head office hear it for themselves. :AH-HA_wink:

Good Luck.

Thanks, maybe I'll write to Bob Lutz after giving my dealer one more chance. It's strange, though, that more complaints like mine haven't surfaced in this Forum, as I've read similar complaints on other web sites. The road test reviewer for CR, for instance, lists the "coarse engine" as one of the "low points" for the Lucerne and sez the "V6 is rough and sounds harsh when pushed", altho he indicates it is "unobtrusive". Maybe so, for most people, but that is a subjective matter. For someone like me, for whom silence is so very golden and who was spoiled by the extraordinary silence of my previous 1999 LeSabre Ltd, this gruff engine is not so unobtrusive. For me it's very annoying. Another reviewer said the engine makes the Lucerne sound like a generic airport rental sedan, which may be an overstatement, but I read in all of this that my situation is NOT unique and may well be endemic to the car itself, just not a point of contention for non-perfectionists and those not spoiled by previous experience.

I own a Park Avenue which shares this platform and uses the SC3800. I have experienced no such issue. I've driven the Lucerne and ES350. I do not find the Lucerne louder than the ES350. The article you are referring to by Sajeev Mehta was posted on C&G last year. You commented on this issue in that topic and it was discussed in that topic. Is there a particular reason you wish to discuss this issue again after all these months? As much as I appreciate your enthusiasm over the Lucerne, I can't help but notice that all six of your posts on C&G are nearly identical. It sounds like your particular Lucerne has a problem. I'm sorry that your dealer has been unable to resolve it, but exaggerating the issue and alluding to it now being a "chassis" issue universally impacting all G-platform vehicles is an absurd conclusion. I do not see your problem as an engineering flaw. It sounds like there is a part (or parts) that may be defective and may need a more knowledgeable dealer to examine it. I want your experience with the Lucerne to be positive, but you've owned it for about eight months now. I would move your Lucerne's issue up on the priority list and take it elsewhere to be inspected.

Thanks for your comments. I bring up this issue again only because I'm hoping eventually to stumble upon someone here besides Sajeev Mehta who has experienced and understands my same problem and, even better, has a suggested solution. Inasmuch as my dealer can't seem to help further, I don't know what else to do. They're ordinarily pretty good, and my family has been with them many years, so I have no particular reason to believe I would get better service elsewhere, and I wouldn't have any idea where that might be. Maybe I'll give them one more chance. Sigh! At this point, I'm pretty much disillusioned with Buick, worn down, and an unhappy camper. This will probably end up being my last Buick. Now, I just wish I could have a new 1999 LeSabre Ltd, like my last one. That would make me a happy camper.

I think the old grill is better & previous interior was fine; otherwise, I can only hope Buick finally figured out a way to better isolate the growly/gruff engine noise & vibration better than in the earlier models. Then it would be TRULY QUIET-TUNED luxurious!

My father has a Lucerne CX and I've driven it a few times: it's so quiet I couldn't tell it was running from inside. Quiet Tuning is not 'hype'.

Understand your frustration, but it sounds like an assembly error or defective part- the former something a TSB would not be addressing. It's not something anyone who hasn't had the problem & resolved it is going to be able to make a suggestion about.

Your experience is puzzling to me. I've been reading elsewhere in this C&G forum and find that frequent visitor Sajeev Mehta has hit the nail on the head regarding the noisy/growly/gruff Lucerne engine under acceleration. He seems to have angered a lot of other visitors with his criticisms and comparison of engine noise in the Lexus ES vs Lucerne, but I find his conclusion valid that you can't legitimately claim QUIET-TUNING in a Lucerne unless you get better engine noise isolation. My dealer is aware of the problem, but has not been able to make significant improvement other than by replacing a so called defectively designed engine mount (just 1 ???) and realigning the engine to all 4 mounts (separate visit). I'm beginning to feel the problem is endemic to the DTS chassis, inasmuch as I have experienced it in 2 rental Lucernes, and inasmuch as DTS Cadillacs are also accused of having engine noise problems, and inasmuch as the same (?) Buick V6 was in my 1999 LeSabre Ltd, which had the quietest engine (under acceleration) of any car I've ever owned. So, it would seem with the DTS chassis that one needs a extra measure of effort that Buick has not given to isolate engine noise/vibration from the cabin.

I recently bought a Lucerne CX, believing quality/luxury equate to QUIET, and buying into the QUIET-TUNING hype – although it’s indeed quiet on the highway, I am disappointed that it is not nearly as quiet in stop/go city driving as my previous 1999 LeSabre Ltd – the CX has poor engine noise isolation & annoying drive train shudder/growl under startup acceleration conditions - dealer improved situation by replacing one engine mount (defective design) & realigning engine to mounts, but engine noise isolation still not acceptable - wind/road noise isolation good, but 2 out of 3 not good enough. Is there ANY way I can get better engine noise isolation? I'd be willing to pay for custom service in this regard, because I like the car otherwise, but no one seems to have a solution. Dealer apparently has done all he can ... he can only act on info (technical bulletins) that Buick gives him, and he's ALREADY done that.

UPDATE (April 6, 2007) - See post #55 of this Topic - PROBLEM FINALLY SOLVED!!!

I drive my mother's Lucerne quite often as well as my fathers 2000 LeSabre. The engine noise into the cabin is hardly different. When floored it's definitely noticeable, but all-around it is nothing out of the ordinary for the 3.8 inside of them (unless your Lucerne has the 8 cyl). The noise it produces isn't anything unusual for Buick and has not been a point of complaint for almost everybody. I highly doubt there is less engine noise into the cabin in the LeSabre than the Lucerne ..... It's not louder than most vehicles thats for sure ....

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I don't know about the 2000 LeSabre, but it's not my imagination that my 1999 LeSabre Ltd had significantly better engine noise isolation under acceleration than my new Lucerne CX. I've always been very sensitive to this sort of thing, perhaps an anal perfectionist sort of thing. The CX is great for highway driving at more or less steady speed, but I also do a lot of start/stop city driving, and the engine noise is very disappointing to me. I'm one of those folks who equate quality & luxury to smoothness & quietude, under any driving conditions, and am no doubt more sensitive to this sort of thing than the average person. I just feel I've been 'scammed' to a certain extent by this Quiet-Tuning' promotion. Maybe there's something wrong with my particular car ... a leaky muffler/resonator or faulty engine mount(s) or missing manifold gasket(s) or faulty muffler/tailpipe hanger or whatever. Does anyone out there know of any tricks or customizing to better isolate Lucerne engine noise? I'd gladly pay extra for that.

Well, I just came back from a 400mi trip in the Lexus ES 350 and here are my thoughts.

1) At 75mph, the Lexus ES has SIGNIFICANTLY more wind noise than a "Quiet Tuned" Lucerne.

2) The ES has a lot of road noise on coarse pavement, more than a Lucerne on any pavement I drove on.

3) Stomp the throttle for passing and the ES gives a muted howl, its much quieter than the Lucerne at WOT.

So I stand by my words, the Lucerne is a quiet car on the highway, provided you don't get on the gas much. 

The Lucerne needs an engine as quiet as the Lexus ES to fit my definition of "quiet tuning."

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I fully agree! Who are these troglodytes who want noise out of a Lucerne of all things?! That's crazy. Surely there are other cars to satisfy neandrathal noise needs. The problem with Lucerne's so called Quiet-Tuning is that the beautiful job they did with reducing wind and road noise is spoiled by the lousy job isolating engine noise at most ANY acceleration, which is a big disappointment to me. I loved the much quieter engine in my 1999 LaSabre Ltd. Somehow I missed that difference in my Lucerne test drive, and wouldn't have purchased the car had I realized the poor engine noise isolation.

I was a very happy 1999 LeSabre Ltd (original) owner, and traded for a used 2006 Lucerne CX in Aug'06; wanted, above all, a smooth, quiet ride; I got better handling, but have mixed feelings about alleged 'quiet-tuned' ride: yes, wind noise is impressively diminished, but road noise is about the same (after switching from Bridgestones to Goodyear ComforTreds), but engine noise is greater than LeSabre, a disappointment. Lucerne had a really annoying momentary drive train vibration from a dead start when I got it ... dealer replacied 1 of 4 engine mounts and re-aligned engine: much improved, but still have a little vibration under certain acceleration/load conditions from a dead start ... never had such a problem with the old LeSabre. The Lucerne is much more stylish, especially w/WW tires to make 16" wheels SEEM bigger than they are, and to dress-up the appearance generally ... I HATE the current trend to BW tires ... looks cheap!. On the down side, there are annoying (dangerous?) blind spots looking rearward and from the thick front roof supports. I'm disappointed I couldn't get the automatic temperature control with the CX, but had to get a CX because I wanted cloth seats, not leather, and because I wanted the smaller 16" wheels for a softer/quieter ride. Guess you can't have everything. Oh yes, I seem to be getting better mileage (averaging 25MPG vs 23MPG with LeSabre, even tho nominally same engine/xmission). I'm a light-footed, 67-yr-old driver, try to time stoplights, etc., to maximize mileage.