El Kabong

Yup. Can't believe the hp numbers. Who do you suppose was off by 20hp in their claims? The 0-60 number was pretty cool too. 65 grand and you lose a stoplight Grand Prix to an Alpha SS? A nice win. But so, so far from invincible

Yup, it was a nice video.

[self-edit, Suave beat me to it]

Oh, definitely. It's just the nature of the biz. Someone who's gotta have the new Shelby will pay more, someone looking for a screaming bargain on a 427 Camaro will pay less. Each one will be happy with their purchase, although neither one's logic will be flawless in the process. Trust me on that last one-I BOUGHT an early Zeta SS

Eh.. maybe I'm not explaining it well or something. It is no where near as compartmentalized as you are suggesting. One brand can be the lead brand to work on a platform, but all the brands that are planning to use it have input. Cadillac took the lead here because priority was placed on making a world class platform for Cadillac, but the Chevy people (and Buick... and possibly Opel) were involved from the beginning. People talk about "GM Parts Bin" when referring to things like door switches and headlight buttons, but it is really much deeper than that (and at other companies too). A flexible platform means that many variants can be built off the same platform. Pick a front section, pick a mid section, pick a tail section, and then put your brand's skin around that skeleton. Since I'm not doing a good job explaining it, here are some pictures: Here is VW's MQB platform - Audi TT, Audi A3, VW Beetle, VW Golf, VW Jetta, VW Passat (last gen), Volkswagen Tiguen, Volkswagn Touran VW-MQB-01-450x234.jpg Here is Nissan's CMF platform - (Buncha Renaults and Euro Nissans) nissan-standards-450x333.jpg I'm picking up what you're laying down. We're good. Really

But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves. They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation. Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable.... But here's the thing, the SS already dispatches the GT PP. I'm not sure if there is any incentive for GM to really under-price themselves. They could, and I feel should maximize their return on the Alpha Platform. Price it at the equilibrium where they get maximum profits, squeeze the living hell out of the margins and have a nice performance buffer that gives them the advantage for this entire generation. Either that or the Zeta Z/28 was hella profitable.... The Z/28 is a bit different of a discount proposition because of the things that made it unique, I suppose. If you were a member of the "Ziploc-bag it for Barrett-Jackson in 30 years" club you would probably be drooling right now. But for GM it's just an old car that needs to be broomed, ASAP. Fancy parts or not, it's gotta go. It's made cash for the corporation. But the new ones about to debut in all likelihood, and it's going to inevitably be better.

A 50 grand Z/28 would make a powerful argument against a 65 grand Shelby.

Alrighty then. GM allowed Chevy folks in on what has become an amazing platform at the planning level. I'm convinced. It's good to know that GM no longer needs to rely on happy accidents to make amazing things happen. Here's hoping they don't forget that.

Yup. It's a fair and square win. But for the reasons you said and more I don't expect it to hold the title for any length of time.

GM has the deeper toolbox and the desire to use it. It worked for the SS, it's going to for the stuff about to debut. That simple In the real world things are, how you say?... different

Why are you smiling? I think FriskyDingo nailed the outcome of the competition and gave a pretty good forecast as to what's going to go down.

Here's what we all have to keep in mind with the current Mustang-Camaro wars: this is perhaps the first time ever when both cars have had new platforms at the same time. Therefore, the "wait'll next year!" factor is going to fade away quite a bit shortly-the model slates for both cars will be filled and the chips will fall where they may. We already know where they have fallen as far as the mainstream V8s go. We will have to see who will step up and do an EB vs. 3.6 comparo to see how that shakes out, as well as the base cars. But as a GM guy looking over the awards and praise the Camaro LINEUP is getting, and knowing what I know about their hi-po engines... Well, I think my guys have the better outlook.

It beat an out of production car. I'm cool with that. You're the one who appears to be upset.

A well-planned product portfolio is a good thing. But I don't see how co-development of a Cadillac and a Camaro would result in anything less than a mutt. This was the method to the Lutz madness-make it good enough for the segment above you, then it'll sell in droves and thus become attainable for all. It's an old recipe. Ford originated it with the Flathead V8. Regardless of whether the Alpha Camaro is a happy accident or a deliberate derivitive (I prefer the former just for ease of saying it), it has reset the rules for the game. I suspect that Mopar is taking notes and giving Alfa Romeo engineers funny looks as we speak.

It's another example of Ford doing things differently, as opposed to necessarily doing it better. Full props for the rev range and sound, but it ain't invincible by a long shot.

Ya. About that... Cammisa stopped being speechless once he got those dyno sheets out and realized that either the Mustang was down 20hp or the Camaro was up 20hp. He mentioned it repeatedly. It's not much good to have sound and fury if it signifies nothing. Once it became apparent that the power was the same then it was the weight and chassis tune that became the obvious suspects in the win. GM has a couple of ways to aporoach the problem. Whichever one it takes will be effective.

Are there still old Rangers knocking around lots? Maybe they'll do a conparo versus the Canyon. It's all a bit silly really

Say a platform was developed for a certain vehicle, at a certain price point, to be competitive in that segment. Then, it winds up also being the foundation for a vehicle typically not competing at that price point... That's what I call "trickle down" chassis tech. Drivelines, gear ratios, and all that? Not as big a deal. But make no mistake, it's still something to consider, as Cadillac discovered with the ELR. And let's be blunt here: some carmakers will get the benefit of the doubt if they have a good rep for really trying. Lincoln is not one of those carmakers.

Out of production and cars still for sale are two completely different things and you know that. If and when GM produces something else, we can talk again. And you know that. So I trust we will see no more posts on rumored future Ford products then? The Z/28 is pretty much a given as most of the development work is done already. And realistically we all know that. I have no problems with the best Mustang Ford can build beating something GM no longer builds. If I did, why would I start this thread?

Production and availability are not the same thing. Everyone knows the lots cannot clear before the production line does. C'mon man

Nobody is arguing semantics. The Mustang won over an outgoing model. GM is in superb shape as far as options to respond. I'm a happy camper. Indeed, I'm thrilled. After all, the dyno sheets appear to show that GM has discovered a way to underrate their engines again. As far as we know the SS may actually be a 475hp car.

He appears to be upset that we are not upset. Strange.

When better Lincolns are built, they'll drive like Buicks?

All well and good. But again, I see nothing about the new boss (ahem) that was a quantum leap ahead of the old boss. Indeed, I iust laid out a perfectly plausible scenario where GM could do a car of the 350Rs equal using leftovers, a bone-stock LT1, and a price tag well over ten grand less. From a GM guy's perspective this is not a big deal at all. The most complicated part may be which method to use to regain the crown, and how soon do you want to do it.

Agreed. Trickle-up hasn't worked to this point. It is unlikely to start now.