longtooth

I was the (proud) owner of a 1989 Skyhawk.....flip-up lights, 5-speed, 2.0L OHV FI, "T" package with "Shelby" aluminum wheels.......and I did drive the car for 84,000 miles with nary a problem....didn't even replace the clutch in that time.

I sold it and got into a brand new '91 Saturn SL1.

Even in the Saturn, the level of interior fit-and-finish, materials used, seating comfort, not to mention the superior (if low on power) OHC L4 (I had the base SL1 motor) was a far step ahead of the j-body Skyhawk I had in many areas of design, ergonomics, etc.

I didn't have the Saturn long enough to judge long-term reliability......but in that day, even the Saturn was far closer to the (increasingly better) import competition than the Skyhawk ever was.....

And that is where your SL1 was aimed.

Lot of debate within the ranks at the time re: Saturn. I knew GM would be loathe to see it fail through the early years. I like the entire line-up of Saturn currently and silently rebuke myself for not buying the Aura last year over the G6 GTP.

http://www.smartmoney.com/breaking-news/on...8&afl=yahoo (the link to Sharon's article)

An excerpt from the article:

By Sharon Terlep

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

DETROIT -(Dow Jones)- General Motors Corp. (GM) Chief Executive Rick Wagoner has taken to YouTube to convince the world that that the auto maker will emerge from its latest turmoil.

Wagoner, in an unusual move for an executive of one of the world's largest companies, used the popular video sharing web site to stress that GM is doing what needs to be done to overcome the challenges facing the company.

Chairman/CEO Wagoner's YouTube Link. So far no comments. Wonder if he ever scans this site of ours? Enjoy.

Please! It isn't even enough to save General Motors.

By Alex Taylor III, senior editor

(first paragraph)

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- Given the prolonged drum roll of publicity that accompanied the unveiling of the Chevrolet Volt electric vehicle last week, it isn't surprising that any number of onlookers got caught up in the enthusiasm. When people begin referring to it as a "game changer" and a "paradigm shift," it's time to inject a bracing dose of reality...

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/news/compa...rce=yahoo_quote

Volt is a lightning rod. I am definitely interested in acquiring one for myself when they are ready. I know that internally GM is attempting to price the Volt closer to the mid-30 thousand dollar price-point and cross their fingers in the hopes of Congress allowing a $5000 to $7500 tax credit for purchasing one. We'll see provided that GM isn't stopped in its tracks by some as-yet-unforeseen wrinkle in the tenuous economic fabric of our times.

A couple thoughts:

1) I don't know how McCain can get away with doing his "smaller government"/"government should get out of your life" speech and at the same time toss in a section about "more regulation". But then I never thought the US was the communist country that apparently it is. I guess when the chips are down communism wins out. :AH-HA_wink:

2) It boggles the mind that the right has any credibility left with the American public. At least I am assuming they do based on the closeness of the election.

3) I think it stinks that people can get involved in mortgages they have no way of paying, wall street can get rich off of selling them, and the responsible tax payer that was doing things right now has to pay for both of them.

McCain can say that regarding smaller Government because the comment services the foam-at-the-mouth-military-leg-humping-George-Bush-loving 'basers' (the 26%) devoted to Conservatism, the GOP and the Holy Grail of the GOP: small Government. We're going to have a rather large Government presence in our lives and well beyond our own time given the horrendous economic meltdown fostered under their stewardship of America and that great unregulated casino, Wall Street. We're all Socialists now comrades.

My screen-name is Longtooth and I approved of this message.

I'm 38..I remember seeing the early '80s X-cars and J-cars as rusted out beaters by the late '80s..they didn't last in the Rust Belt...the GM's I liked in the '80s were the F-,G-,B-, and C-bodies... lots of F- and G- bodies (and some B-'s) in my high school...

Well, this view of yours contradicts my remembrances of Xs and Js of that vintage soldiering on well into the 90's here in the frozen North. Just my take you see. See you, I'm heading off to hit the sack.

I was a teenager in the '80s..I knew then that J cars and most FWD GMs were crap...I drove RWD then (5.0 Mustang), still prefer RWD today..

Then I only have a couple of years or so on you then, perhaps a decade. (I'm 52) My flaw as I perceive it is that I truly never grew up. The 80's were more or less 'my' decade, my life being intertwined with the rise n' fall of GM and leading to where I and GM are, still entwined (ruefully)...

So as I watch the continuing ebb and flow of the financial markets, the auto industry and politics simultaneously it gives me pause as to how some differences regarding cars built a quarter of a century ago can still inspire conflicting passions today. I love going back in time and those X's and J's were well-received in their time. A few venerable examples still ply the highways. I had a 1982 Chevy Citation X-11 in Redwood Metallic. That thing took corners like no one's business. I traded that on a 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT in August of 1985 and while the appearance and presentation of the Fiero was stunning, she couldn't hold the road as well as her X-Bodied relative. The rear drive Fiero basically had an X-Body front-drive moved to the rear, minus the steering componentry of course. Still I loved it for several years and gradually grew into my pick-up truck phase beginning with the stunning redesign of GM's C/K trucks unleashed to stunning success in April of '87. Memories are still fairly vivid...

It would be delusional to compare a FWD J-car turd to any BMW. RWD gives BMW superiority, even a 4cyl '83 3-series..

Unequivocally, Meh... :-(

'Biz, remember these are the opinions of 'kids' (relative to us) extrapolating backwards what has become the mantra of the present day, to wit: 'foreign is better'. As Generation iPod is given to stating: 'meh'...

Forget it. I've stopped arguing with people who dredge up the original J-bodies, K-cars and others. Those of us who lived it (and worked in the auto industry in the '80s) KNOW that the original Civics, Accords, Tercels, etc. were pieces of $h!, too. But REVISIONIST HISTORY states that only GM and Ford built crap back then.

I'll hoist one to you then 'Biz. You know of what you speak. I would say that going forward, GM really needs to apply what they/we preach to what we build. I'll do what I can in my small part.

As for the 1980's vintage J's and X's, it was something to see and something to have been privileged to have been a part of. Like the song says: " They can't take that away from me".- George and Ira Gershwin.

Not sure how this became a 'bailout' thread...but let's not cast stones, GM fans---the Det3's turn at the gov't trough will be coming down the pipe real soon.

(The complete meltdown of our financial system certainly required intervention...the wisdom of the solution can be debated all day).

As far as Yates' book goes, it's simply sad to see the same errors made generation upon generation. And while I agree with 'Biz that the erosion of the Det3's marketshare was inevitable, I completely disagree that the current crisis couldn't be avoided.

High quality, competitive product produced consistently would have enabled the Det3 to maintain profitability and pricing discipline for their car line-up---and as a subscriber to Car & Driver since '81, I can promise you that few Detroit products were considered "Best" anything.

The J-car (and T and Vega and X car) were simply not good. The A, N, GM-10 and W's that followed were, at best, mediocre. The other co's were similarly spotty with their cars.

The Culture that allowed this to happen hasn't changed---just open the doors of most Det3 products to find the truth is self evident--and the only way to right the ship is to make demonstrably superior product that will bring back customers that wouldn't have previously come into the showroom.

The J-Body, coming on the heels of the at-the-time successful X-Body program. They were initially well received. As a 20-something autoworker in the Spring of '82, I can still remember the new Cavaliers lined up and showing their pretty faces on Main Street at Stockburger Chevrolet in Newtown, Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Right in the heart of town. Real Americana.

You really had to have been there to have understood the heady nature of the times and sweeping dynamic of it all. 26 and one-half years ago. Middle of an oil-shock induced recession. My goodness.

I transferred out of the Doraville plant (for Wilmington) exactly two years ago this morning. When I had started work there slightly more than four years ago, management was beginning implementation of GMS and slowly ramping-up production of the 210 crossover van. A stop-gap for the up and coming Lambdas.

I was awed by the history of the place. For the incoming transferees Doraville was at the time a sought-after location. The sheet metal stamping plant was (and still is until this Friday) a modern marvel.

I'd like to say hello to GM Doraville's Nino DiFiore from competitive engineering and my friend and former supervisor Don Singer. Good people.

I miss the local environs of Doraville, Dunwoody and Atlanta. Quite a cosmopolitan area. I lived just 2.1 miles from the plant in Metro Atlanta's Dunwoody suburb just 19 miles or so from Hartsfield-Jackson Airport. I was homesick at first following my move down there, but I gradually warmed to the area and it to me. I was more or less accepted by the local citizens. There was friction as it applied to the new guy on the block but even that went away after a brief period.

In my time with General Motors I have been grateful for my job and I thank God for it every day. I think that I kept up my end of the bargain. Yet I saw many of the issues being debated and discussed on this site and others as it pertains to what 'ails' GM. I have my opinions and I'll just hold onto them for now. Sorry to see such a proud plant with its storied history winking out of existence.

You guys would have your 'free' Medicare by now with the money Washington is using to bail out the vultures on WallStreet. Did I not predict this just a year or so ago?

Will the trillion (read: TRILLION) dollars that this is going to cost, NASA could set up a base on Mars, then send the WallStreet bankers to it. THAT would be a far better use of a trillion dollars, IMO.

A certain somebody (who no longer posts here) took exception to my disdain for accountants and banker types, but I am being being proven right. We cannot live in a country that produces only paper assets.

The GOP/Republican base have their tentacles into everything down here to the extent that the flim-flamming of your southern neighbors took place at their capricious whim and at their pleasure. Well, the piggy-bank's broken and we're creating 'wealth' to bail ourselves out.

The financial pages here lament the lack of car buyers. Funny*.

People here are out of work so they aren't buying cars. Home values and home equity has become a quaint memory and those folks are not going to be tapping their home's value to purchase a new ride. We may see levels of sales here consistent with the actual purchasing capabilities of the American consumer. Likely to see U.S. sales stagnate in the range of 12.75 to 13.5 million per year for several years to come as the dust continues to settle.

*ironic and sad

Why not just indict our Capitalist-cum-Socialist system? With the massive rescue of the Financial System, we're all Socialists now. These same people saw National Health-Care as too expensive to implement. The frauds.

Yes, "S" she's a looker. I'm too tall to fit at 6'7". I had two Fiero GT's '85 and '86. No problem. Camaros and Trans Ams no problem. I'll just have to love her from a distance.

Yes 'Pontiac Custom-S'. Likely they've gone home if you tried calling after 10:50 pm edst. We were down for the week leading into the Labor Day holiday here. (week of 08-27-08) The hard-top Solstice is a sweet-looking car.

Pontiac's flag-ship hot rod was a Trans Am/WS6/Firehawk until not that long ago. For me that sinister flared-nostril 'Hawk or WS6 spelled doom for anything with 4 or 6 cylinders (and some V8 Mustangs) plying the streets. I had an '02 black WS6 and an '02 black Firehawk (last black 'Hawk on the East Coast I was told) purchased from Peruzzi Pontiac/GMC/Buick. I had my fun with 'em and then moved on to something else. Now I am waiting for my SS Camaro, but still lament that at least for the time being, that there'll be no Trans Am for Pontiac.

We Build Excitement: Pontiac.

As an added incentive, now there are f*ckin' Hyundai Genesis' to shame. Hyundai, can you believe that sh*t?

The "Mark of Excellence" strikes back!

&

:camarosmile:

(mine)

The stock been a part of my PSP since the 80's as well as part of my discretionary portfolio. Loyalty to GM keeps it where it is and in consideration of my age and assets there it will stay.

If and only if that cheap money is used to bring NA operations back to profitability...

Once GM has encapsulated and packaged it's "legacy" commitments and an economic recovery takes hold across the globe things will look a lot better for General Motors going down the road.

No the US Federal Government is about to give the big 3, half the money they wanted.

Aim high, get near what you want. Old negotiating tactic. I believe they'll get the rest too. In Pelosi I trust....

But you're comparing the high revving HP of a DOHC V6 to a torquey V8. How bout 273ft-lbs @ 5k vs 325ft-lbs at 2.4k. The LT-1 excelled at being unruly, capable of completely destroying a set of tires through an intersection and having the inexperienced facing the wrong way after making a quick U-turn. With 15 year in suspension, tire, transmission, and engine design the 3.6 Camaro is a teddy bear in comparison even though it may be able to closely match an early factory LT-1 in speed.

Edit: I hope the 3.6 being in the Camaro brings out more Supercharger and Turbocharger kit makers. Kinda sad to see this engine family widely ignored by GM performance fans while the Ecotec and LSx get all the good stuff.

Roger that. Currently restoring a relatively low mileage '93 Z28. Some pep left in her and a bit rough around the edges but otherwise a decent looking example of that vintage. Also drive a 2007 G6 GTP. The whoosh factor of the Z over the G6 is appreciable. I'm somewhat amazed at what they can wring out of the 3.6. I can appreciate both for their own virtues, but I'd rather scoot around town in the Z and go farther afield in the G6. I also have an '06 Yukon (6.0 liter) for serious people-moving and towing.

Like you, I can anticipate an aftermarket blower for the upcoming V6 Camaro. Why they've not chosen to christen a Z28 model leaves me puzzled somewhat but I can't wait to eventually get my hands on a new SS Camaro. We'll see.

Gosh, maybe I'll now get that Astra I have been after. I doubt I will though. I think some sort of "Volkswagen" thing has gotten under my skin.

There's a lotion that'll take care of it but you'll still have warts in that area.

300 Horsepower V6. The '93 tuned down LT-1 made 275 horses. I love technology sometimes. Like when it can find oil somewhere that we don't need to send soldiers to baby-sit the commodity.

Just like the price of our cars...

As the 'redistribution' of wealth continues across the globe and less and less of that wealth finds its way into the hands of consumers, prices will inevitably fall. The whole global economy is a pyramid scheme on a grand scale. Millions upon millions in China, India, the continent of Africa etc., are living in abject poverty that we here posting on this forum from the comfort of our dwellings cannot imagine.

I absolutely LOVE what Lutz says in his interview at 20:34-22:15.

It enforces his quote in my sig.

Yes 'TED', perhaps, but I think they feel that their discernings are unquestionably impeccable as well. Like wine snobs. Know any of those?

I can only dream of being that boorish.