Hogans_Heroes

This part is important - if for no other reason than it is being misinterpreted in the media at present: "The Filing Persons may determine, based on market and general economic conditions, the business affairs and financial condition of General Motors, the market price of its shares and other factors deemed relevant by the Filing Persons, to acquire or dispose of additional shares. In this regard, the Filing Persons may consider acquiring additional shares when they are able to do so without jeopardizing the tax benefits realized as a result of the sales described herein." http://www.fairmark.com/capgain/wash/ http://www.fairmark.com/capgain/wash/ws101.htm Because of the Wash Sale rule, GM shareholders can expect no support from Kirk for some time to come. Also, I'm not discounting the validity of the stated reason for selling. However it appears that others are. Questions will be raised for sure. Wagoner's "it started out bad and got worse" year has just dimmed further still. Hopefully, everyone has stayed away from January 2006 calls. I irresponsibly recommended GM call options on another thread, but note I cited Jan-08 and not-yet-available Jan-09's. I'm getting unbelievably hosed. The stock, now yielding over 10%, has got to have the highest yield in the S&P 500. I expect we'll see this through. Keep a long-term horizon and, above all else, keep the faith.

Yes, the official line throughout the day was a PIN report or Toyota production schedule... but something tells me the $19.31 on the ECN has a little more to do with this: UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION Washington, D.C. 20549 SCHEDULE 13D Under the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 General Motors Corporation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Name of Issuer) Common Stock, par value $1 2/3 per share -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Title of Class of Securities) 370442105 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (CUSIP Number) Richard Sobelle, Esq. Tracinda Corporation 150 South Rodeo Drive, Suite 250 Beverly Hills, CA 90212 (310) 271-0638 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CUSIP No. 370442105 1. Names of Reporting Persons. I.R.S. Identification Nos. of above persons (entities only). Tracinda Corporation Item 4. Purpose of Transaction Item 4 of the Schedule 13D is hereby amended to add the following information: On December 15, 2005, and December 19, 2005, Tracinda sold 5,000,000 shares and 7,000,000 shares, respectively, of General Motors common stock in private transactions. Tracinda sold these shares because it is eligible for substantial federal and California corporate income tax savings if it incurs a capital loss prior to the end of its current fiscal year, January 31, 2006. The capital loss will offset certain capital gains realized by Tracinda in an unrelated transaction. The Filing Persons may determine, based on market and general economic conditions, the business affairs and financial condition of General Motors, the market price of its shares and other factors deemed relevant by the Filing Persons, to acquire or dispose of additional shares. In this regard, the Filing Persons may consider acquiring additional shares when they are able to do so without jeopardizing the tax benefits realized as a result of the sales described herein. Except as described above in this Item 4 and herein, the Filing Persons do not have any plans or proposals that relate to or would result in any of the actions or event specified in clauses (a) through (j) of Item 4 of Schedule 13D. Item 5. Interest in Securities of the Issuer Item 5 of the Schedule 13D is hereby amended to add the following information: (a) The following table sets forth information with respect to the shares beneficially owned by each person or entity named in Item 2 hereof. Mr. Kerkorian has sole voting and investment power with respect to the shares held by the Filing Persons: Name -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of Shares -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Percentage of Outstanding (1) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tracinda Corporation 44,000,000 7.8 % 250 Rodeo, Inc. 7,613,700 1.35 % Kirk Kerkorian 44,000,000 7.8 % Anthony L. Mandekic -0- 0 % -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Computed on the basis of 565,506,606 shares of common stock issued and outstanding on October 31, 2005, as set forth in General Motors Form 10-Q filed on November 9, 2005 for the period ending September 30, 2005. © On December 15, 2005 Tracinda sold 5,000,000 shares of General Motors common stock for $22.02 per share ($110,100,000 in the aggregate) in a private transaction. On December 19, 2005 Tracinda sold 7,000,000 shares for $20.21 per share ($141,470,000 in the aggregate). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SIGNATURE After reasonable inquiry and to the best of my knowledge and belief, I certify that the information set forth in this statement is true, complete and correct. December 20, 2005 TRACINDA CORPORATION By: /s/ Anthony L. Mandekic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony L. Mandekic Secretary/Treasurer KIRK KERKORIAN By: /s/ Anthony L. Mandekic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony L. Mandekic Attorney-on-Fact* 250 RODEO, INC. By: /s/ Anthony L. Mandekic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony L. Mandekic Secretary/Treasurer* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Power of Attorney previously filed as Exhibit (i) to Schedule TO/A filed by Tracinda Corporation on May 26, 2005.

Ugh: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ecn?s=GM

Okay, this is pretty much flushed out in the references above, but I found the article I'd had in mind: (Most intersting takeaway: 'GM's finance division was losing its influence and O'Neal had his doubts about the future of the entire company, worrying that its success would lead to complacency. "I was concerned I would wake up 10 years hence and be very successful in a context I was not entirely happy with"') "GM SHAPES A LIFE O'Neal grew up in poverty on a farm in the Deep South. He was educated in a schoolhouse built by his grandfather, who was born a slave. His grandmother, mother, and aunts picked cotton. Much of O'Neal's life was guided by his association with General Motors. Too poor to properly support his family, O'Neal's father eventually moved the family to Atlanta, where they lived in a housing project, so he could work at a newly integrated GM assembly plant. O'Neal worked the night shift at the same plant as a teenager. GM sent the young O'Neal to the GM Institute (now Kettering University), where he earned a bachelor's degree in industrial administration. He later received a scholarship to Harvard from GM and spent the first 10 years of his career there. Finally, he met his wife at GM because she was an economist who worked with him in GM's treasury office. ON THE FAST TRACK FOR SUCCESS His first job after graduating from Harvard Business School was with GM, where he began his career in 1978 as an entry-level analyst. In just three years he moved to director level in the treasurer's office. According to John D. Finnegan, chairman of General Motors Acceptance Corp. and a former colleague: "That's about as fast as you can do it." He next worked for GM in Madrid, Spain, as treasurer of GM's Spanish division. Sandy Robertson, founder of the investment bank Robertson Stephens, who dealt with O'Neal during his time at GM, stated: "He was proud of the fact that he had started at the bottom" (both BusinessWeek, November 12, 2001). ARRIVING ON WALL STREET O'Neal resigned from GM in 1987 and changed over to a career in finance, joining Merrill Lynch's investment banking division. His move showed foresight. GM's finance division was losing its influence and O'Neal had his doubts about the future of the entire company, worrying that its success would lead to complacency. "I was concerned I would wake up 10 years hence and be very successful in a context I was not entirely happy with" (BusinessWeek, November 12, 2001) Just three years after arriving at Merrill Lynch he was appointed head of its lucrative junk-bond unit, where he coached a team of young vice presidents in an effort to win new clients. Under his watch, Merrill Lynch rose to number one and remained first or second in junk bonds until O'Neal was promoted to head of global capital markets in 1995. After he left, the company fell to number eight. Bennett Rosenthal, who worked with O'Neal at the time, stated: "I never took Stan on a pitch where we didn't win the business. He was obsessed with being No. 1" (BusinessWeek, November 12, 2001)."

HBS Article: "The path from the rural South to the upper echelons of Wall Street is not heavily traveled. Indeed, E. Stanley O’Neal (MBA ’78) is surely the only person who has made the journey from the fields of Wedowee, Alabama — where he labored on his grandfather’s farm picking corn and cotton — to the 32nd floor of Merrill Lynch headquarters at Manhattan’s World Financial Center. As president of Merrill’s U.S. Private Client Group, O’Neal oversees sixteen thousand brokers — or financial advisors, as he calls them — in eight hundred branch offices. Also an EVP and a member of the Merrill Lynch Executive Management Committee, O’Neal is one of the firm’s top officers and is frequently mentioned as being on the shortlist to be the next chairman of the 150-year-old firm. “My father told me I wasn’t cut out for farm work,” says O’Neal, whose easy smile and relaxed demeanor almost belie his stature in the pinstriped, power-brokering world of Wall Street. “I never took it as an insult.” Seated in a conference room with an expansive view of the Hudson River, O’Neal recalls that work was hard to come by in Wedowee, population 750, and the options, particularly if you were poor and black, were limited. O’Neal’s mother worked as a “domestic,” cleaning houses, and when he wasn’t harvesting crops with his three younger siblings, he sold and delivered newspapers. As it turned out, his father wasn’t cut out for farming either, and when O’Neal was 12, his family moved to a housing project in Atlanta, where his father eventually landed a job at a General Motors factory in Doraville. Stan O’Neal attended the General Motors Institute (which later became Kettering University), a co-op program where he alternated between studying engineering and industrial administration and working in the Doraville plant. O’Neal, the first in his family to finish college, says of his undergraduate days, “I really didn’t have an understanding of the world or any role models, but I had a strong desire to learn, and I think that is what pulled me through.” After graduating in the top 20 percent of his class, O’Neal returned to Doraville, working as a supervisor at the GM facility. When he was accepted at HBS, GM gave him a no-strings-attached scholarship."

From wood shack to Wall Street - Stan O'Neal - Business Focus - Profile - Intervie w. By Garth Alexander. 2088 words 29 July 2001 The Sunday Times English © 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd Not Available for Re-dissemination. Stan O'Neal, grandson of a slave, is the new president of America's biggest stockbroker. Now he has to stay ahead of the Thundering Herd. Like millions before him, Stan O'Neal fell in love with New York at first sight. He was captivated by the city's energy and excitement and set his heart on finding fame and fortune among its gleaming towers. It is a typical outsider's dream, but O'Neal is different from most. He is the grandson of a slave - a black American born in poverty in the Deep South.. His chances of success in New York were far from promising, especially as he chose a career in the white-dominated world of Wall Street. Last week O'Neal achieved a unique triumph. He was appointed president and chief operating officer of Merrill Lynch, America's biggest stockbroker and one of the world's top investment banks. David Komanksy, Merrill's chairman, says he expects the 49-year-old O'Neal to succeed him when he retires in 2004. If he does, he will become the first black man to head a leading Wall Street firm. O'Neal's remarkable rise from working night shifts on a car assembly line in Georgia to becoming one of the most powerful men in the capital of capitalism is the stuff of legends - and an inspiration to millions of young black Americans who see race prejudice as a barrier to advancing their careers. The appointment comes at a critical time for Merrill Lynch and the securities industry, which is suffering from a sharp slowdown in equity transactions as investors, scared by tumbling share prices, shun the market. Merrill's net profits plunged 41% to $541m ( #380m) in the quarter ending June 29 compared with the same period last year and net revenue fell 19% to $5.57billion. Even more worrying, the firm attracted only $1billion in net new money from American clients, compared with $24billion in the same period last year. More than 3,000 jobs have been axed in recent months and analysts predict another 10% to 15% of the 70,000 workforce could go before the end of the year if business does not pick up. Continuing cost-cutting and the threat of future layoffs is damaging morale. Headhunters have reported a surge in the number of people at Merrill seeking new jobs. As O'Neal takes on his new responsibilities, many will be watching him closely. Some will doubtless hope he fails to lead Merrill out of its troubles. But failure has been rare in O'Neal's unusual life. HE was born in Alabama in a small black community settled by former slaves after the American civil war. He grew up in a house with no indoor plumbing. His school was a one-room shack with a wood-burning stove. Life was tough. "Mostly we grew everything we ate," says O'Neal. "We didn't buy any vegetables. We couldn't afford to buy them - and we didn't need to. We had cows and chickens and hogs." His father found it difficult to support his four children from the manual jobs he did locally and moved the family to Atlanta in Georgia. There young O'Neal, now 13, encountered white boys for the first time. He went to a high school that was in the turbulent and frightening process of being desegregated. "We were bussed from our federal housing project (council housing) to the school. There were incidents every day - fights, name calling and other things. It was very tense. For all these white kids it was the first time they had seen black kids. For the black kids it was the same. There was a lot of tension and it didn't take much to boil over. But it was the first time for me to have a high-calibre educational environment." Just as O'Neal was benefiting from the great changes that were sweeping the South and demolishing centuries of racial segregation and prejudice, so his father was benefiting from similar changes at a General Motors' plant in Doraville, northeast of Atlanta, where he managed to land a job as one of the first blacks to be employed on the assembly line. O'Neal says: "Previously they had only employed blacks as janitors. It was a good job, paid much better than comparable work and the benefits, such as health insurance, were outstanding. Our circumstances started to improve and we moved out of the housing project to a rented house and then to a house we bought." O'Neal enrolled in General Motors Institute, a college at Flint, Michigan, where all the students worked for GM in exchange for their education. "It was a co-operative college, which means you work for a certain period and go to school for a certain period. In those days there were six weeks of study alternating with six weeks of work." At regular intervals, O'Neal would drive the 640 miles back to Doraville to work at his father's assembly plant. After four and a half years he obtained a degree in industrial administration and returned to GM to work the night shift as a foreman on the assembly line. ALTHOUGH he had been an indifferent student at high school and had failed a couple of classes in his second year at GMI, he had by now developed a passion for studying. After two years at Doraville, he won a scholarship to the elite Harvard Business School. While at Harvard, O'Neal visited New York for the first time. He says: "I was just blown away by it. After I graduated, I visited again several times, doing interviews for jobs and the more I came here the more I realised it was the only place I wanted to be. When I decided I wanted to go back to General Motors, the only place to be was in GM's New York treasury office." The treasury office is a training ground for GM executives and provided O'Neal with invaluable experience. Among his contemporaries was Rick Waggoner, GM's present chief executive. During the next six years, O'Neal helped to put together some of GM's biggest deals, including the acquisition of Ross Perot's Electronic Data Systems in 1984 and Hughes Aircraft in 1985. His dealings with Wall Street bankers whetted his appetite for investment banking. In 1987, at the suggestion of a former GM treasurer, Courtney Jones, who had become Merrill's chief financial officer, he decided to join the bank nicknamed the Thundering Herd. According to contemporaries at Merrill, O'Neal was "inquisitive" and "voracious" for information. He made his first mark in the firm's junk-bond department and was soon put in charge of it. He became trading and investment banking co-head in 1997. And less than a year later he had been prodded by Komansky and others to take on the thankless post of chief financial officer. It was a critical moment for both O'Neal and Merrill. The firm was hit hard by the 1998 Russian financial crisis, which triggered the collapse of the global bond market. Merrill had become a leading player in the market and was unable to unload its bonds without suffering huge losses. The bond department was reorganised at a cost of $430m and 3,400 staff were laid off. The New York Times observed afterwards: "As a former head of the capital-markets business, Mr O'Neal had a hand in the build-up that led to the blow-up. How Mr O'Neal managed to survive with his reputation intact as a first-rate financial manager remains something of a mystery, some analysts and current and former Merrill employees said." O'Neal raised more eyebrows last October when he sold 618,640 of his Merrill shares just before they began to fall. They have lost a quarter of their value since then. O'Neal, whose pay last year exceeded $20m, made $40.5m from the sale but says he still has the majority of his wealth in Merrill stock. AS he sits in his 32nd-floor corner office of the World Financial Centre in Manhattan, O'Neal knows he is under pressure to prove to his colleagues that he deserves their trust and can run the firm. He says his first priority is to get to know the staff and their views better. The head of a New York headhunting firm says: "He has to prove himself to them. He is the first leader at Merrill who has never been a broker. There is a lot of uncertainty. Merrill is no longer unquestionably the market leader and it is getting difficult for them to recruit the best people." Analysts are concerned that the two losing candidates in the race for O'Neal's job may now leave the firm. They are Jeffrey Peek, head of the asset management division, and Thomas Davis, head of the institutional-securities group. Amy Butte of Bear Stearns told The Wall Street Journal: "A good indicator of Stan's leadership will be whether he can keep other high-ranking people at Merrill." Like Komansky, O'Neal denies that Merrill needs to merge with a retail bank to survive and compete with ballooning titans such as Citigroup and Credit Suisse First Boston. He says: "We have an enormous balance sheet - $400billion or so - and are extremely well capitalised from an equity point of view. We don't need more size." But Henry McVey, securities analyst at Morgan Stanley, says: "He needs to defend and improve Merrill's corporate position vis-a-vis the other global players, which have commercial banking across multiple product lines." THE fact that there are so few blacks in senior positions on Wall Street clearly concerns O'Neal, but he does not like to make a big issue of it. He says: "Historically, the roots of this business are all about relationships and who you know. The people who tend to wind up in this business are relatives of those working here already, or their friends or neighbours or acquaintances. That process has changed a lot in recent years, but people still tend to hire people like themselves. I think you have to be diligent about being inclusive." O'Neal feels he has often been underestimated because of his race. He remembers being asked at social gatherings in the late 1990s what he did for a living. When he said he worked for Merrill, he would be asked: "And what do you do there?" After saying that he was the chief financial officer, there was invariably a pause, followed by the incredulous question: "Of the whole company?" For many Americans, a black man becoming president of Merrill Lynch is unbelievable. If they knew the full rags-to-riches story, they would probably call it a fairy tale. OTHER AFRICAN-AMERICAN SUCCESS STORIES KENNETH CHENAULT Chenault, 50, became chairman and chief executive of American Express this year. A former lawyer (educated at Harvard Law School) and management consultant (with Bain), he joined Amex in 1981. Since assuming the top post he has battled to salvage a disastrous junk-bond portfolio with write-offs of more than $1 billion this year FRANKLIN RAINES Raines heads the Federal National Mortgage Association (or Fannie Mae), the publicly owned government-sponsored body that buys mortgages from lenders and resells them to investors. A former banker with Lazard Freres, he has also served in the American goverment, most recently under Clinton. His is a graduate of Harvard and Harvard Law School THOMAS JONES Jones, 50, is a senior officer at Citigroup, America's largest diversified financial services company, where he directs global investment management and private banking and is co-chairman of the asset management group. He has been vice-chairman of America's largest pension system, treasurer of John Hancock Mutual Life and a management consultant at Arthur Young CLIFFORD ALEXANDER Alexander, 67, is the head of Moody's, the credit rating, research and risk analysis company. He is a former secretary of the US army and heads Alexander & Associates, a private consulting firm. A graduate of Harvard and Yale, he is former lawyer, past chairman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and served in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations © Times Newspapers Ltd, 2001. Document st00000020010806dx7t00007 Related Factiva Intelligent Indexing™+

[quote name='haypops' date='Dec 16 2005, 05:03 PM'] quote=Newbiewar,Dec 16 2005, 12:58 PM] when its a reality you'll see kirk pull out... and BofA wouldnt loan money to Kirk if they felt it wasnt a safe investment, heck BofA has a 10% share of GM as well as Kirk... those are 2 people/companys that wont let it happen... [post="59742"][/post] [/quote] some talk of Kerkonian here, but mostly talk of the board[ [post="59771"][/post] [/quote] Nice find! A great read. Pfeiffer and Fisher should step down. Their careers were far less than stellar and they've been on long enough, having presided over a significant amount of decline. They could easily be asked to go. Also, Fisher unsuccessfully ran a dynastic, slow to change ("Nifty Fifty"!) legacy company which has fallen from grace due to foreign competition and only belatedly moving away from technologically obsolete products which seemed to slowly lose its grip on its respective industry over decades until its decline ultimately heightened. Then, it was delisted from the DJIA. I don't like the sound of it; dump him if for no other reason than bad luck! Sure, I'd kick him out, kick Pfeiffer out. Bring in York. I also think executive chairmen of the board is really 1990s and probably not in the best interests of shareholders. As the article correctly points out, it's a shareholder-agent problem. I'm surprised ISS or large funds don't make more of a stink about this than they do. Granted, it would be difficult for a working CEO to take on this additional role a la Smale. Stan O'Neal I really like. There was an interview a long time ago with him in which he described growing up. I think I can recall him saying how his father was a middle manager at General Motors and that maybe his grandfather had worked there too. I'll try Factiva-ing and will post here if anything comes up.

I think GM is a buy at these levels. At $21.80, it's yielding 9.17%. Don't get me wrong, it could very well go lower before it goes higher. My guess is we'll see a pop to the mid to high $20's immediately following a GMAC transaction agreement. You're betting this comes before the January 20th Delphi deadline and I think there's a good chance it will. I look at it from a standpoint of there being a window where you have a potential (any day now) catalyst to the upside before the biggest known potential downside catalyst becomes a possibility. I'd look to then sell GM at a profit following a GMAC announcement, sit on the sidelines for a while, and then buy back at lower prices in the darkest day before any potential Delphi storm. From there, you'll be again locking in a great yield and it will become more of a long-term turnaround play. The GMT9xx SUVs will contribute in 2006 but restructuring charges and one-offs will obscure the results. Hopefully GM can get the majority of charges behind them in 2006. 2007, then, will see nearly a full year of full production of GMT900 pickups and by the second quarter this will be entirely reflected in their financial performance. I'd even look to purchase the more liquid 2008 out-of-money call options like WGMAF.X, WGMAH.X, and WGMAI.X, such is my confidence (though obviously for trading purposes with no intention of exercising at the expiration date). For the truly brave, you could purchase Jan-09 call options at the highest prices possible (which will be available starting in January 2006) at way out-of-the-money prices on the brink of a potential Delphi confrontation in late January. I've already nibbled a bit on Jan-08 $55's the last couple weeks. I'm talking small money, but with the potential for speculative-like returns. If my GM common falls substantially further (I purchased at $23.06), I might even sell it to free up more cash for Jan-08 $55 calls to make it back and more. If this sounds to you a gambling man's losing bet... well maybe it is! But I figure if GM does go down (the chance of which I hardly entertain even for a minute) then, well, I've got bigger things to worry about.

I think they'll choose Solstice for car of the year. Fusion is nice, but c'mon it's essentially an Accord. For truck, probably Ridgeline. No one knows the best Explorer yet is new and it's a real dog on the sales floor. The Ridgeline's not exactly lighting the place up either, but they'll probably want to accentuate innovation.

Jim Mateja asked some very direct questions of Wagoner for use in this article.... about his job, potential rivalry with Fritz, confidence of the board, etc. Pretty good read: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi...hi-business-hed

No. My information suggests GMX002 really is cancelled. The confidence level on this is a lot better than the 386. One thing AH-HA mentioned about a "large" supplier continuing to work on the 002 did cause me to pause if only for a moment because the original supplier I'd heard from was a Tier 3 supplier (small and privately-held, but still key for the program). GM also told them that the business was not being awarded to a competitor (similar situation as with the 386). But, I've been able to coordinate the 002 information with additional supplier sources and an analyst friend who cited a "very highly placed" source in GM who confirmed it to him. I don't know who his source is and know enough not to ask, but he's been very solid in the past. The same source could not produce for me corraboration of reports the 386 was cancelled. I have ways of confirming for sure if the 002 is cancelled but can't control the timing of when I'm privvy to the information (and haven't yet been). These supplier source are, for the time being, the only source of my information. Like I said, they imply work on the program has stopped.

LOL! Looking at these delays and rumoured out-and-out cancellations, I may have been feeling the other day a bit like John Rock at Oldsmobile when he commented about somebody having just shot his "gosh darn" horse out from under him :) I was responding to your implying I'd had something to gain by suggesting 002, 386, etc. were cancelled. Trust me that I have only GM's best interests at heart. I'm a generally pessimistic guy and have a habit of looking for people to comiserate with. No desire to see the General do anything but succeed. In fact, I think I'd stated in another post I was recently a buyer of GM @ $23.06. For what it's worth as well, between myself and an analyst friend we've been able to find quite a few people at GM to say the 386 is still on. We'll see what comes.

Interesting about Grand Prix. I'll keep that in mind. I know they were looking at the "G8" but thought it had died for good a while back when ZETA was delayed. Pontiac doesn't really need a full lineup going forward and should become a more focused brand. Already, I've figured the Buick Invicta (Buick RWD Flagship) shouldn't go forward assuming the Lucerne goes RWD... so maybe that leaves enough room in Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealerships for a couple of RWD models. Whatever the case, I think it's got to be limited at a maximjum of 2 between the two brands. When are you looking at for ZETA, btw? Mid-to-late 2009?

FUTURE_OF_GM, I agree if true these delays are not so great. I want to see the GMX386 come out and on time. Just to clear some things up, I don't believe the 387/327 is cancelled - just delayed, probably to 2010. And this upcoming Aura on Epsilon is fine too. The Epsilon2 version (354), though seems delayed.

LOL! :lol:

Hudson, Your points one-by-one. GMX386: We have not said the GMX386 is definitively cancelled, or at least I don't mean to imply that with a great degree of certitude any longer. I've cited sources which are contradictory and this raises serious questions. G6: No one's said anything about 2009MY G6 replacements. GM has scheduled (as I indicated above in several places) a move to Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") for the G6 Coupe & Sedan in October and July 2009. Obviously, these would be 2010MY. And sure they're in danger of delay. GMX384: Yes, on schedule. Don't disagree. However, I do think 354 is being delayed. GMX002: Preponderence of evidence I've seen does show it is cancelled. That info is light-years better than anything I've got on the 386. But, the last thing I'm trying to do is assert this above all evidence to the contrary. If you've got good reason to think it's still on, I'd love to hear it. Still, doesn't it need to be weighed against all the evidence to the contrary? LaCrosse & Grand Prix: You're correct about the LaCrosse - the code is GMX353 on Global Epsilon in Jan-09 as a 2010MY, most likely in Orion Township. I've made no assertion to the contrary. The code has been out there for a long time and the program itself is pretty public. But there's no future Grand Prix, from what I can gather at least... and I haven't seen any codes associated with it. The LaCrosse is Epsilon2; what platform have you got in mind for Grand Prix? Regards, HH

AH-HA, I like your thinking on the 386 and, despite what some people working on it at GM are saying, agree it could succumb to such logic. Another thing regarding the 354 Aura, couldn't it too be subject to re-think as well? For instance, GMX384 Saturn Aura is set to debut on Epsilon (Jul-06) but GM's also got a rework of it (GMX354 NG Saturn Aura on Global Epsilon) in Apr-09. This is very soon, less than three years afterwards. We've both floated the possibility the GMX386 gets axed with the Epsilon2 pulled ahead (in part due to its previously-planned-for compressed lifecycle). I continue to wonder if there's not another side to the coin - the other side being the 387/327 delayed beyond Jul-09 and Oct-09 and also the GMX384 could soldier on for a bit longer - perhaps a more traditional five year lifecycle. We could chew this over on the 19th if you're coming to the get-together.

No, I tried to link to a post I made earlier in this thread indicating reports the Aura would be scaled back most likely relate to the Epsilon2 version being delayed a bit and that the current (mid-2006 2007MY) version was perfectly fine.

Yes, it seems the 2007MY Saturn Aura is perfectly safe. Still hearing conflicting reports on the Malibu though... all GM insiders indicate it's still moving forward but some suppliers are singing a different tune. I think they're overly sensitive to any developments at this point and would describe their overall mood as one of wariness. The Aura info was hard to believe given its very imminent launch. But the Malibu concerns me; I guess it's a bit of a wait-and-see. It wouldn't be too surprising to see priority shifted away from some programs (perhaps Epsilon Malibu) to pull others ahead, probably ZETA (to make up for lost time?). And then if it were judged you could bring the Epsilon2 Malibu forward (though of course after the mid-2007 Epsilon scheduled date), maybe GM thinks it's worth it. http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...sult_type=posts

Sorry, I meant to write "GMX387/327"... these are for the NG G6 Sedan & Coupe. A worksheet I was previously working off of had read "GMX287" instead of "GMX387". Some have referred to the two models together as the GMX388.

More recently, I've been able to get or hear of three insiders at GM in addition to yourself indicating the GMX386 Malibu and the NG G6 are still on schedule - and I don't discount this. But it continues to contradict information from supplier sources where the Malibu is concerned; some have indicated the Epsilon refresh could become an Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") debut, but later. Also, to deflate the direst of speculation, the Saturn Aura seems perfectly safe and on schedule. The information I'd received relates, then, to the Epsilon2 ("Global Epsilon") version which was scheduled too early after the Epsilon debut anyhow.

QUOTE(Hogans_Heroes @ Dec 10 2005, 03:11 AM) Okay, here are some beans for you guys: NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled. NG G6 (GMX287 & GMX327) is cancelled. GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back. GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail. As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form. Watch your PM Inbox smile.gif * My perspective on the "NG Pontiac G6 Global Epsilon Jul-09's" code of GMX287 and the "NG Pontiac G6 Coupe Global Epsilon Oct-09's" code of GMX327 is the same as Bob Lutz's. Official GM documentation, prepared for management. What's your perspective? PS, This was hot off the press. I responded to your earlier ribbing in jest and with late-breaking product information, at that. These codes, launch dates, and programs were real - though don't be surprised if I'm more reticent to divulge similar information here in the future. It has never been in my personal interest to do so and being insulted for it hardly makes it any more appealing.

Okay, here are some beans for you guys: NG Malibu (GMX386) is cancelled. NG G6 (GMX387 & GMX327) is cancelled. GMX384 Saturn Aura is being scaled back. GMX002 is about as dead as a doornail. As for MightyMouse & Chazman, they'll be receiving more in hieroglyphic form. Watch your PM Inbox :) *UPDATE: It seems Saturn Aura is safe.

This interesting response to Wagoner's op-ed could well spark some discussion here: http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment...00512080857.asp Poor Excuses from GM’s CEO Rick Wagoner is either lying or blind when it comes to explaining the automaker’s fall. By John Tamny Rather than blame poor management for his company’s woes, General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner offered up contradictions and falsehoods to explain the automaker’s state of affairs in Tuesday’s Wall Street Journal. Although he acknowledged that GM lost a lot of money in 2005, Wagoner cited high gasoline prices, competition, lawsuit abuse, “unfair trading practices,” and remarkably GM’s own benevolence as the primary reasons for the company’s demise. Addressing fuel prices, Wagoner said “GM offers more models that get over 30 miles per gallon (highway) than any other auto maker.” Despite its apparent competitive advantage given expensive fuel, three paragraphs later Wagoner added that “the recent surge in gas prices hurt sales.” The problem with the latter assertion is that Wagoner previously noted in the piece that GM has “been strong in truck sales” but “weaker in cars” — the very cars that would presumably be in demand given high gasoline prices. On the competition question, Wagoner wrote of “intense competition” as a reason for GM’s struggles. Interestingly, he preceded his mention of the competition problem with citations of two independent studies: a Harbour Report that says GM possesses three of the top five most productive North American plants, along with a J.D. Power Initial Quality Study that says GM’s Buick and Cadillac brands rate ahead of competitors that include Toyota and Honda. Toyota and Honda offer a worthwhile comparison. Both compete against GM around the world, and in doing so presumably face the same competitive pressures as Wagoner’s firm. Yet both Honda’s and Toyota’s stock prices are near all-time highs, while GM’s shares have fallen 76 percent since 2000. Nowhere did Wagoner see fit to ask whether his company is making automobiles that consumers simply don’t want. Lawsuit abuse in the United States? Honda, Toyota, and GM all suffer together. Wagoner had an explanation for Honda’s and Toyota’s outperformance of GM, and predictably it had to do with “unfair trading practices,” in particular “Japan’s long-term initiatives to artificially weaken the yen.” Leaving aside the fact that money manipulation doesn’t change the real price of anything, not to mention that a strong dollar would drive down the costs of imported inputs that go into making GM cars, Wagoner’s assertion about Japan’s actions with the yen are blatantly false. In reality, since the 1985 Plaza Accord, the yen has risen 45 percent against the dollar. In the 20 years since the agreement was reached, the stock prices of Honda and Toyota have respectively risen 922 and 1237 percent. During that same timeframe, the price of GM’s shares has fallen 14 percent. Contrary to Wagoner’s claim that U.S. automakers gain some kind of advantage when the dollar is falling, GM’s stock reached a 20-year high in 2000 when the dollar was bludgeoning the yen. Regarding GM’s staggering “legacy costs” related to healthcare for employees, retirees, and dependents, rather than acknowledge the major mistakes made by GM management, Wagoner amazingly chose to cast the company’s profligacy in a benevolent light. In his view GM didn’t make foolish promises, but instead it and “other traditional manufacturing companies created a social contract with government and labor that raised America’s standard of living and provided much of the economic growth of the 20th century.” Carried to its illogical conclusion, Wagoner’s statement suggests that all bloated American companies should offer their employees major perks in the hope that more efficient American workers and companies will lower their own living standards in order to pay for the irresponsible actions of companies such as GM. Notably, Wagoner said GM is “not looking for a bailout” in the same paragraph in which he said, “It’s critical that government leaders, supported by businesses, unions and all our citizens, forge policy solutions to the issues undercutting American manufacturing competitiveness.” Wagoner doth protest too much. He would like for all Americans to pay for GM’s poor management with a cheaper dollar and more government funding of healthcare. If they do, the lifestyles of GM workers will rise while the living standards of the rest of the country will fall.

Ok, more triangulating of sources has taken place in just the last 18 hours. While I can't go into detail here, suffice it to say the GMX386 has turned out to be just the tip of a very large iceberg.