hyperv6

I am suprised how well it is selling here. I have seen many on the roads. I see much more of theses than the Smart or IQ.

What I noticed with the 911 is it made fast feel slow. This is what I find in the SS where I will be going along and all of a sudden I see how fast I am going and will be shocked at how far over what I thought.

The 911 was the same way as it made 100 MPH feel like 50 MPH. It has quirks as any car does but I found it did a good job on poor road conditions. Anyone can make a car handle well on a black lake it is the real world back roads that make the cream rise.

The ELR is a different kind of car to appeal to a new and growing segment of the market. It is not a car for everyone and GM has already said it does not expect high volumes.

This car will help the Volt spread some cost, it will attract attention to Cadillac of people who never would have looked at them and it will enhance Cadillacs technology image. While Benz and BMW are making a big deal with the Night Vision that Cadillac did years ago that went unnoticed they can attract a lot of attention with this car.

This is just part of Cadillacs efforts to rebuild their image.

The truth is Cadillac is not going to work for high volume in most of their cars as time goes on. The volumes will remain the same while prices with continue to climb. The idea is to make it special to own a Cadillac and not be a car just anyone can have with a cheap lease. This transition will take some time and more and better new models but this is where they are going. The volume will increase just due to the fact they will be offering more models in a couple years.

I just would hope they could capture the fun to drive my SS has with this car. If they could tune it to handle and ride like my F5 suspension it would be great. I looked at the numbers on the Toyota and they are nothing special. Even with FWD my SS will top nearly all their numbers and I am hauling 3200 pounds. If GM could tune this car to the degree like they have many of their recent tunes it would make for a very fun to drive car.

GM has finally woke up and learned stiff springs and big bars are not always the answer. My SS will take on any back road stupied fast and still remain easy to control. I learned a long time ago a well tuned car will be easy to drive fast. Untill spent a lot of time in a 911 I never understood how much harder I worked to go fast in Trans Am's and the like unless the road was smooth. Note I am not a 911 fan but I have a lot of seat time and know it is easy to drive fast and appreciate how it taught me how bad some of the cars I was used to were.

While I agree with the logics behind limiting the Corvette to dealer-equipped and trained staff and high volume, I don't agree with GM playing the "following game" with Dodge/SRT. Since they mentioned it first, I'd let them have fun limiting the availability of the new Viper while I (GM) would have fun giving it out to any dealer that asks for one. Of course GM could mandate that at least one mechanic is trained on repairs and is equipped with the necessary tools for those repairs. I just think it's a stupid plan to bring more attention to the Corvette - the real people that are hurt are the low-volume dealers that want to sell the new one and the customers that may have to drive out of their way to a "big box" dealer to buy one. If a dealer wants to have a Corvette for a halo-car-in-the-showroom gimmick, why should the manufacturer deny the request? GM needs to start leading with their marketing ideas rather than following on their competitor's heels.

This is something that has been on GM's mind for a long time.

The Vette has been a blessing but also an issue within GM since the 80's.

The problem is Chevy is GM's value leader of affordable cars. While the Vette is the affordable super car a ZR1 and even some of the lesser Vettes are not the common car many dealers would sell let alone stock. The fact is 90% of the dealers not getting a Vette have not sold a Vette in the recent years anyways.

I think concentraiting the Vette on offical trained and approved dealers is the compromise to keep the Vette under the Chevy banner but better serve the owners and the Vette brand as a whole. Many have in the past inside GM looked at making the Vette a brand of it's own but that never flew with Chevy who has relied on this car as a hallmark for 60 years. Like it or not GM has accepted the two are joined at the hip.

This is what we are looking at. In the last 5 years the Vette has averaged 13K in sales. Last year was only 12K units and GM knows they need to move this up or the Vette could at some point fail as all other models it does not get a free pass, I know some think it does but it does not. The goal now is to double sales with the C7 and take it global.

Two areas they look to expand is the younger buyers and to capture buyers of other sports car brands. They want the owner of a 911 who they may get to consider a Vette to be treated to a higher level of service in shopping, buying and servicing his car. By putting this in the hands of larger dealers they will be able to step this up in the Chevy line and give Vette service. The 911 guy if GM gets lucky enough to consider them does not want Spark level of service.

I know that GM needs to treat all buyers with a top level of service but when you get over $50K people expect even more.

I think GM is looking to make this more than just selling Vettes and someone buying a Vette. What GM wants is someone to be a Vette owner and to recieve all that goes with being a Vette owner. You no longer buy a Corvette but you will become a Corvette owner.

Lets face it the little dealers will mostly lose a little ego as most of the dealers that will be included here are the ones selling most of the cars now. So few are sold on the low end it should really not effect them much if at all. Many people are going to these larger dealers anyways as they are selling the cars so much cheaper as it is.

I know one guy I knew who was selling new Vettes with an agreement with a smaller dealer that could not move them. He would buy them and sell them through his exotic car dealership. They made money and he made money but without him the dealer would have not sold a single car. I am not sure if GM would have been happy with this but I suspect they were none the wiser and often these cars were shipped overseas anyways.

Anyways this way of dealing with the brand will strengthen the brand and hopefully capture sales from other makes that are already treating their customers like royalty.

You can not compare a XLR to the ELR as all they have in common is the emblem

The XLR failed becase it was a more expensive underpowered Vette.

The ELR is a better looking and better interor Volt. The question is will the interior and styling be enough to keep a hand full of people from paying less for the Volt.

I wish they would just give this body an option to just come with a 2.0 Turbo sans battery.

Merkurs failed in part because of how they were marketed and for the most many of the dealers did not care or work to better sell them. It was much easier to sell a Cougar or a Turbo T bird. Cheaper too.

Ford needed to work that program better with some core dealers that were trained to better deal with them. Even then they would have been a tough sell.

OK, I'm really becoming fixated on that 130 "Nomad".

I know it's just vaporware, but I think I should have one!

Me, getting excited over a small car, so very rare!

A small car with out a V8 too.

Have you got the flu?

If you had the small dealers like we have in the outlaying areas we do here you would understand.

The Vette needs to be focused with dealers that know the car and know how to sell it. They also need to have a service department that has at least one tech or more trained to work on the car. Some of the small dealers here have never even changed oil in these cars.

GM I feel is working to better serve the customers buy having dealers that know the car inside and out and know what the hell they are doing here.

I have seen issues just with the HHR SS owners where many owners who have had issues have taken the SS to a Chevy dealer that had never seen a SS let alone even sold one. They take it into the service department of a small dealer and have issues with solving the problem with the vehicle.

My dealer where I bought mine from and had my warranty work done at has a couple techs that are trained on specialize in the turbo engines. Remember this was a few years ago when a Turbo 4 was rare at Chevy. They also did all the Diesel Turbo work and the one that worked on my car was fully trained on the ZR1 as the one say he had to clearance my I/C for the Turbo upgrade kit he also had Goodyears ZR1 in with a full cage in it.

There were some issues with the Turbo up grade kits as they replaced the 2 bar Maps with 3 bar Bosch units from a Alfa Romeo. This required crimp connectors that take a Special Kent More tool to crimp. Also in some the I/C needed shimmed forward to clearance the lowe Map. I was lucky as my guy had a clue and installed mine proper. Many others worked with small dealers with no clue and had endless duability issues. In fact I learned a lot on this set up from the GM engineer that oversaw the project and the tech that installed mine. I was able to pass the info on to the others on the HHR web site and many were able to solve the issues once they told the dealer what to do.

As the Corvette becomes more and more complex and as long as sales are as low as they are GM needs to do a better job of selling and servicing these vehicles. To be fair if a smaller dealer can prove they can properly do this they should be considered but too many of them are unfit and will not meet the standards this car needs.

We have to remember this is not just any Chevy it is a $55K-135K Chevy and the people who shell out this kind of money expect more than someone buying a Spark. That is not to say Gm is not servicing Spark owners proplerly but with the price goes up the expectation qudruple.

The Vette is no longer a car that is similar to a Impala or Camaro. At one time if you could fix an Impala you could work on any Vette but today it takes much more. This is not my opinion but what the Service writer at Doug Chevy told me.

Sad that the small dealers get the shaft if they are a good dealer but often they never sold one or sold one at best so it will not effect them much if any.

Hell the dealer that was in Clay WV was so small they could not get a car in it. THey would sell a handfull of Cobalts and a Impala and Monte but most of their volume was trucks. If they had sold a Vette in the last 25 years I would be shocked. Same for Buck Chevy in Canal Fulton Ohio. The one in WV closed not long ago as they could not rebuild and the town was so small they hardly could support the dealer where it was. It was a sad end of an era but times and buying habits changed.

Anyone remember the Mekur failure and Pantera failure at dealers even more ill prepared to deal with a high end car they had no clue about.

They wil sell that many on styling alone but do not expect a lot more.

They will not be a common site on the road unless someone in the neighborhood buys one.

Again you think in one dimension.

This game is play out more than just a bunch of number on a post on the internet. Tadge pointed out how the public responds to the one upmanship of the big numbers.

To me you make a car lighter all the way around you can do more things like stop faster and handle better since more HP does not add these things. But again you give the market what it wants.

As for balance you can balance a car with or with out a SC. GM did it witht he past ZR1 and will do it again.

As for cost you are going to get the engine and Carbon body anyways. The added cost of 10K to the engine is not a factor. Hell these owners pay extra now to be able to build their own engine in Wixcom and have it shipped to the plant to pay extra to pick the car up at the museum.

Now if we were speaking on the base car where there is give an take you may have a point but most of your points are not valid in the real world with the market they are working with. Sorry but when you add real people to your numbers the number tend to lose to peoples wants. You always have to take the unlogical with the logical when selling cars in the maket place.

In a perfect world most sports cars would take the lotus approch with high powered small engines in very light cars. But in a real world the public does not respond well to this and that is part of the reason Lotus has stuggled for years even now as they have finally gotten the quality up.

I think it is simple on what is coming.

The Z06 or what ever they chose to call it will be a bigger brake and more composite car with a mid range engine. It also will have other performance features added. I expect it to also remain coupe only. It will also carry options also offered on the ZR1.

The ZR1 or what ever they will call it is pretty simple. It will be powered by a supercharged 6.2 LT4 engine. HP will be at or near 700 HP at the least. The car will carry a entire carbon fiber body and the ceramic Brembo brakes. It will also carry over an updated magnetic shock package possibly Gen 4 by the time it comes to market. This is the model that will be below 3000 pounds.

Tadge Juechter has made the mission clear on the Vette. Make it lighter, better quality, appeal to younger and non traditional buyers. He also does not want to ge the price out of sight on the lower end either. IT will go up about $5K but what has been added will account for a good value with this increase.

The greatest goal of the new car is to get the base model to sell better. The last 5 years the Vette has been selling at a sickly 13,000 unit average per year. If this number drops Tadge state it could be a problem for the line. His goal is to return the car and double what it has been selling. To do this the focus has been to appeal to more than the aging traditional owners. They want to get the younger buyers who have migrated to the GTr and other sports cars. They want these buyers to see the Vette as more than a old mans car. Also they would like to sway people away from the much more expensive 911 and even Boxster with better performance and lower price.

With a tight economy all sports car sales are down even Porsche. With a better performing car and a much better price it may help some down size their budgets but not have to give up any performance. The C7's goal is to change minds of what a Corvette really is.

Note on the LT4. This is not just somehting I made up. It was an engine seen on a computer at GM that listed it for the C7 ZR1. A lot can happen from development to production but the LT1 was on the computer with it and many feel that this is the top engine at is to come. Many wonder why the name of a very limited model from the 90's but that is how it was tagged.

Might consider I recieved info from a GM engineer a while ago that stated the present ZR1 engine could have gone to 725 HP as it was and passes all emissions and durability test at GM. I am sure the MPG suffered some. But with the addition of DI and a few other tricks they may finally make the 700 HP level. Tadge was asked if the HP wars were over and he said no. He wish they all would come together with MFG agreed limits and work else where in the cars but that is not going to happen. With the Mustang at over 600 HP the Vette is expected to make a move up.

Again there is more to this story than just MPG. The 1.6 will get as good and maybe a little better MPG but it will have more lower end torque and a flatter torque cruve than the 2.5. This is why we will see more an more of this engine in many of GM's cars.

The simple truth is the 1.6 T will have a much better feel and will not have to be reved hard to get to the sweet spot where it will trans late in to a feel of power for the owner.

Also note that the lower flatter torque curve helps move the cars mass up to speed faster for more off trottle time. While this may not sound like much it in a DI engine it shuts down the fuel and increases the savings. In my 2.0 when we bumped it up to 315 FT LBS it incresed my MPG by 1-2 MPG even driving it like I stole it. This is what was told to me and confirmed to me by a GM driveline engineer Bill Duncan. I think he has a little more clue than anyone here on the topic.

As for the V8. Under the right conditions they can get good MPG but often they also can get much worse if you are driving them in less than ideal conditions. While my 2.0 can drop in MPG if driven hard I never drop below 23 MPG even in stop light to stop light driving in very cold temps. In the warm it will increase 1-2 more MPG with no hypermileing.

I understand they have improved the V8 with lots of tricks and some versions in the right vehicles can do ok. But out 2009 5.3 is far from a 30 MPG vehicle. In fact it would be nice to see 20 MPG more often.

The physics of engine size is still in play as if all the v8 engines and larger V6 engines got that great of MPG we would have a new Impala and Malibu with these engines. They are not sticking the 2.5 in the Impala because they want too.

It is time to grasp reality that engine will continue to get smaller and they will resort to more turbos to help extract more torque with some power from less and less displacment. I hate to say it but we will see even wider use of the 3 cyinder too.

There are a lot of variables to this but the simple fact is engines will continue to get smaller and smaller while the V8 will remain but in more and more of just a supporting role.

My 2.0 has as much or more power than most of the V8 engines I have owned and has MPG that none of my V8 engines could ever touch and I have owned a lot of V8's. It is not an endorsement for the small engines as I like the V8 too but just the reality of it.

I am sure if I dug around enough I could find a good V8 example of MPG too but it is not as wide spread on all models as some make it out to be.

I fully expect a 2.0 Tubo as an option here and a 1.6T as the most common engine.

As an owner of a mid engine car the last thing they need to do is put the engine in the back as while it may sell good for a year or two once the market is filled the car will be gone in less than 5 years. 2 seat cars are a limited market and low priced mid engine cars are even more limited. In a slow ecomony sports car and low priced sports cars are some of the first things discretionary spending effects.

This needs to be a fun car, sporty car and a car that has a wide appeal to the younger lower income buyers.

As for styling I would love them to do a Buick Avant like car as a Chevy with some added C7 styling bits. Keep it a 4 seater and have a usable trunck.

Too much - that simple.

And I love the design.

I have to agree. I expected more rightfully but unless there is some thing hidden here there is not that much more in this car to make it worth that much more than a Volt.

If I really wanted this technology I could easily forgo the bling for the Volt and save a lot of money.

GM is either really losing their shirts on the Volt or are really over charging [pun not intended] for the ELR . Leather seats and better styling do not cost that much.

Now if they had used a better engine or bigger batterys. Or if they plan to include fast charge charging stations installed or some other added value here.

The El Camino on the SS will never happen unless there is a major change in the exchange rate. GM will not bring it here and sell it at a high price and with out a change in the exchange rate it will never come here on the lower side.

Inless they move Holden to a global platform on the Alpha I suspect we will never see it here unless it is built here.

I could see a small hauler. Lets face it little trucks like the original LUV trucks were not heavy haulers but would do what many suburban familys could live with. It might also pay well in OZ. Lets face it even the short bed S 10 trucks were limited if it was a step side even more so.

Word is leaking that this will be around $70K. Anyone hear anything that would confrm or discount this?

I was reading a book on the Chrysler Turbines in the 60's. I found a lot of similar traits. The drivers who got the car for 90 days all loved the styling, they even liked the Turbine engine even with the slow accelerations. There were many things they loved about the car but when asked in the Chrysler debrief if they would buy one at $20K in the mid 60's they all said no. They loved the car but not that much even if it was to have lasted 3 times longer as claimed by Chrysler.

I think unless GM is in a real bind here they need to keep th price down more on the ELR. I was hoping for a $55K - 60K range. This way it would under cut the Tesla by a lot and not be that much over the Volt to make it a viable option to some who already like the Volt.

They need to keep the price down to keep up volume and get people to give the Voltec a try. I never expected this car to sell more than 10K units but now it will be lucky to make 5K.

GM has stated it would be limited volume and a limited offer on this car. That is good as that means they have no put some crazy expectation on it like they did on the Volt. Also I feel that means a second gen may not be too far off.

Hmmm How about a mini Camaino? Since the Colorado is rather large hwo about we remove the wagon top and make a small light truck.

That would be an interesting Marketing Campaign. Import from Detroit!

Chrysler might take issue with that.

It is a brave new world today with Obama sworn in and now we can focus on green and Local job creation, so heck with Chrysler and lets Import From Detroit!

I planted windmill in my yard and ran 20 red lights in his honor today.

I do not think it is hopless here. GM still can do well with this car with the updates and good pricing. Price is king in this segment as proven by Hyundai with above average quality. If Gm can get the inprovments in and under cut Ford price they will do fine.

The fact is no one will run away with this segment as They all will apply early changes to keep an edge here.

If one only looks at the time line of this car from when it was shown to the press in 09 and how things were delayed it is easy to see how they ended up where they are. I still suspect the nose changes were already in the works when it was intro's When GM move up the intro with this car they did not have the time to finish them, If the Malibu had come out in 14 as a 15 the new nose would have already been set to match the others in the line.

GM was between a rock and a hard spot. Bring the car out now in needs of some tweeks or linger on with the old out dated car till the later date they had already set. I think the early release with tweeks was not great but the lesser of two evils.

This new Malibu was prolly designed before the decision was made to follow the imports and take away the customer's choice to order one with a V6.

That is logical on the space as my 08 has little room to give with the 3.6.

Here is a Hot Rod magazine photoshop of a 130 "Nomad".

I love it!

Nomad-650x417.jpg

Now I am not a wagon guy but that looks good!

The task for this car is to appeal to the core market of anyone not over 35 years old so much. If you are over 35 you could choose this car but you also have many more options to choose from. Now the 35 and under male and females are who this car needs to target. They have less choices and less sporting options.

For women practical and good looking are the keys as proven with the V6 sales of Mustangs. RWD does not scare them off. The ability to see out and carry 4 people are key.

For the younger males it is styling, affordability, electronics and performance. They want something that has a cool factor to it that will make their friends show great envy. They want a car people will ask them questions at the gas station as they fill up.

Retro has less play on this group as many may not know or care about much of it. But if there are styling keys from the past that could be used because they were good and not just because they are retro then by all means use them but in a modern way.

The small 2 door wagon could compete with the Mini. I am not sure how the panel would do but it would be easy to do in low volume. HHR panel had limited love outside fleet sales. It had a cool factor but many people were not thrilled with being stuck with a 2 seater van. Even the Half panel did worse but was a good idea to try.

A convertible would play well with the female segment if it is afforable. Not sure if that would be easy or cheap here.

These are just some idea's off the top of my head. I really need to sit down and try to put this all into the terms of a twenty something. I deal with a lot of them at work as customers and have many that I work with. I will toss out some things to them and see what they say. GM really needs this under 35 age group and they are the ones who will help secure the future. Guys like me are in house and have been for years and really will not be moving on from the brand. GM really needs to capture this in all their models and brands.

I just where Tadge Juecter said even with the Vette they need to sharpen the appeal to the younger buyers. Not only to consider buying one if they could afford it but to get them to aspire to own one someday. The Vette just has not had the pull with the younger demo as in the past. Many of the things in the new car are there to appeal to these kids. The Ferrari traits, the many functional scoops and high tech toys on the dash are all targeted at them but not to the point it over complicates the car or kills the price till it is way too out of reach compared to other sports cars. Vette sales have been down for 5 years and they aim to increase them with buyers who never would consider the car in the past.

I think GM needs to do the same on this car and drive for the non traditional Chevy buyer. This is one that could steal sales from Ford and I hope Scion, Hyundai and even Toyota. But that may mean they needs to do some things very un GM like in some areas.

If I had to choose a name right now it would be Monza. Not so much because of the past car but it is a name that has not been used for a long time and it is just a good sporting name.

Good you got the notchie in red too.

This is where I see this car fitting in. I would see it matching Cobalt in price. Or at least like to see it in this price range. You know that the more performance they add the higher the price will creep. The Cobalt SS was gettng to be around $27k a few years ago.

A panel and 2 door wagon would make for a good HHR replacment option for some. I see many HHR owners not sure where to move next. Most are looking Regal or Nox but not liking it.

Camino I think you nailed it. Not the Nova but the Vega. The first Gen Vega embodied much of what this car is to be. RWD, 4 seat, sporty, affordable, good on gas and a 4 cylinder.

GM would never compare the two but it is like the same idea just in a better built car with a much better engine. The Vega idea was great it was just poorly done.

To be honest the Vega even with the rust issues and oil use would still run and start day in and day out. Back in high school everyone had one for a winter beater. We just filled them up with used oil and kept on driving them. Two guys were lucky enough they had two Cosworths. If GM had just put better metal in the car and liners in the cylinders it could have really made a difference.

I was going to post a photo of a notch back but the site will not longer take Imageshack.?

It is not so much the tech but the volume. The more you make and sell of anything generally the lower the price to produce it.

I would not quote prices as the price on every thing will continue to go up on cars. But I see in the next 5-8 years the Volt may be just a little over a plug in electric.

You figure the added cost of the engine would increase the price a little over a plug in but also the plug in has a larger battery. I see the unlimited range of the gas engine option as a added value to the Volt. Untill the day comes where charging stations are easy to find and charges are much faster with out battery damage the ICE is the way to go to draw new buyers in the real world.

Are you trying to push my second-gen Corvair LOVE button? Those are so beautiful.

I was just a kid but liked the styling on the couple my Dad had. Not so much the first gen though.

I remember crawling up in the rear window and laying in the storage bins while going down the road. Car seats we did not need no stinkin car seats LOL! If I recall the early ones did not even have seat belts. LOL!

I did have to say they did get a great shape out of the 2nd gen. It was just right. Too bad the Pony cars killed it. Everyone like to blame Nadar but the Mustang and Camaro did more to kill the car off than anything. I read several accounts by GM insiders. I think one was by Delorean.

I alwaya wondered what it would have been like if they had done the 2nd gen Corvair with the rear transaxle from Pontiac and the 327 up front. This would have help eliminate the cost of the expensive flat 6 but by then the Nadar PR or I should say BS was too far along.