black02

The claim that torque steer is "a thing of the past" is BS. If anything, FWD worked better a decade or two ago when cars were lighter.

Every time I get behind the wheel of a front-driver I'm shocked by how terrible it is dynamically. Torque steer, Novocaine-numb steering, terrible traction/wheelspin, unbalanced handling...it all seems to be the norm for FWD.

I definitely felt torque steer in the Aura XE (3.5V6 I think) I rented a few weeks ago, and I was just driving it normally (it discourages anything fun).

To make FWD cars fast on a race track, they just set them up to oversteer, and then they control that with the throttle. You'd never want to set up a street car that way.

Well, if all of that comes to pass I just won't be buying any new cars.

I fully intend to drive what I like, and nothing else.

I'm quite sure that I'll be able to keep something interesting in daily driver condition for the rest of my life.

I don't want to give up on new cars, but I will if forced.

If gasoline goes up to $20/gallon, what will you do?

RWD is best for handling.

Sure. But not best for fastest track time, which was the original discussion (CTS-V versus Panamera).

GM to enter motorcycle business.

Fritz Henderson believes GM will make world class super-sport bikes, cruisers and touring motorcycles while delivering world class fuel economy. Motorcycles will be introduced using two brands. There won't be any rebadging. First motorcycle to be expected in 2012 and plans for Voltech in a liter class bike is already on drawing board.

Couldn't hold that one 'til April 1st, eh?

AWD doesn't help cornering, it adds weight, which hurts cornering.

Actually, a well-engineered AWD system will corner faster than a well-engineered RWD system. AWD lets you get maximum traction usage from all four wheels, so even though it's heavier, it'll be quicker.

If AWD were an option in F1, everyone would have it. The reason it's not there is that it's outlawed.

I still like RWD better, because I want more from a street car than just taking every corner at maximum speed.

The stats on California in this article are amazing. I think it's crazy here in Houston how popular import manufacturers tend to be nowadays, but whenever I'm visiting California, I'm blown away by the sheer lack of presence that the Big 3 have on the roads - it's actually uncanny to me.

The Big 3 can win over young people, but they're going to have to be very, very clever about it. There's an opportunity in this to really wipe the slate clean.

My 15 year old nephew likes my 68 Impala - a lot. His parents own a Toyota and a Nissan. There's mojo in the older domestic stuff - and it resonates well with young people. Take that and somehow convey the message that the new product is the best in design and character from that era, with the best of technology and innovation from this era, and it could work.

I think there's a solid opportunity with the Camaro to bring a lot of 20 somethings into Chevy showrooms over the next year or so.

Yeah, in the LA and Bay areas, almost no one buys a new domestic sedan. If you go into the central valley -- places such as Fresno and Bakersfield -- the domestics do quite a bit better (i.e. you see some). But I see quite a lot of Camaros and Mustangs in the areas where sedans don't sell. Also, the 300 and Charger do well.

It definitely helps that you can't get anything like a Charger from Toyota or Honda. It's too bad that GM canceled their Zeta Chevy sedan plans.

Best bus ever built! As a bonus, the U.S. factory was in Pontiac.

The bus pictured is a Canadian unit, built in Quebec.

The first New Look was built in 1959, and the last in 1986.

I sure do. I want to own one someday, really not sure why I love them so much ...

Pontiac still resonates with that same generation here... I've said numerous times that I see more G6's around campus and Trans Am shirts than I know what to do with.

I know it's not a scientific measure, but still the cumulative evidence is there.

(Charlotte NC)

Not to mention, the GTO's largest market was CA

Yeah. The GTO might have been Pontiac's biggest seller -- at least in coastal California.

The G6 doesn't sell here at all as far as I can tell. My impression is that Pontiac seems to have a negative brand image among those who aren't muscle car fans. Chevy still seems to be okay. People do like the G8 and the GTO, even if they don't think much of Pontiac.

Though when I suggested to a coworker that he look at a G8 instead of a slightly used 745i, he said he just couldn't see himself in a Pontiac, no matter how nice the G8 was....

This is what GM has to struggle against.

Pontiac still resonates with my generation. My best friend from high school and his wife both recently purchased new Pontiacs (2008 Grand Prix GT and a 2009 G6). My roomate from college bought a G6 a year ago.

Michigan?

Well, it looks as if something along those lines will happen if Pontiac continues to exist at all.

If that's the case, the brand will be geared toward a very small volume which I think plays to the strength of the product and the brand.

I would be very pleased with Pontiac as a focused, niche, performance brand.

Without money wasted on volume junk.

The best chance for Pontiac is if it clearly gets folded into the Buick and GMC franchise agreement in such a way that it could be canceled in the future with no penalties to GM. That would give GM the freedom to actually make it a niche without having to provide volume cars to the dealerships. It would also give GM a little time to make that niche plan work. Things like the G3 and the Torrent weren't part of the strategic Pontiac plan as far as I can tell. They were a response to dealer complaints. That can't continue.

But as an observer, and not a mover or shaker, if I had to bet, I'd bet against Pontiac.

Still, a small Pontiac lineup with Alphas and Zetas as cornerstones would be pretty neat.

It should tell you that I found the Pontiac was the more desirable car despite the Chevrolet having more desirable features.

There are elements of the Firebird that present slight advantages over the Camaro. Design-wise, the Firebird has a better flowing shape, for example.

I understand. The Intrigue was the best looking W-body by far, in my opinion, just as the Aurora was the best looking G. I would love to see a Commodore with a late Olds front end instead of the Pontiac with scoops. I ain't gonna get it.

I was an Olds fan, though since I like RWD, while I like the look of their cars, they really hadn't had anything for me since 1987.

No I don't.

I was responding to the rediculous remark that people here at C&G wouldn't buy more than 1 Pontiac per year.

Okay, 2 Pontiacs a year. Do I hear 2.5? I sit corrected.

The real way to save GM is to bring back Oakland, LaSalle, Oldsmobile, and continue to pump lots of money into Hummer, Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac.

A car for everybody, dead or alive.

I'll now duck again.

In reality, I'd like to see a RWD Pontiac division as much as anyone. I just don't think it's going to happen, so I'm not going to get my hopes up.

Although I didn't buy a new car, when it came time to rid myself of the Sonoma, I chose to buy a Pontiac Firebird with an automatic transmission over a Chevrolet Camaro with a manual transmission. I prefer manual transmissions, it's actually almost a required feature. And yet I chose the Firebird with what I consider to be the less desirable transmission. What does this tell you?

Welcome to "You're Wrong," population one: yourself.

It tells me that you bought a Pontiac. Is that wrong?

2.5 pages of posts in 11 hours on a semi-ambiguous news article on Pontiac. if GM doesn't understand that there's a herd of people out there that care for this brand deeply, and another herd of people just looking for a car that resonates with them in a way that no other brand out there can replicate, then it deserves whatever it gets.

I'm probably grasping at straws, but I am somewhat encouraged by the fact that there's no mention of selling/spinning off/killing Pontiac.

Yeah, the crowd that's been posting here would probably buy one Pontiac a year, unless GM does something to try to save itself that happens to anger one of them, in which case it might drop to .8 or .9 Pontiacs a year. That's enough for me to suggest putting another few billion dollars into Pontiac.

The answer is not likely, and not often.

And how do you know that?

I certainly didn't expect it to go any other way. It was never a matter of 'if', but 'when'. The only thing left to do is continue to fill topics with discussion and argument on which brands are deemed "unwanted" as the report suggests. Apparently, they're ALL 'wanted'.

I'm glad that the government spent the time to do this right. A 363 without government help likely would have been impossible, and a standard chapter 11 would have been a mess and probably would not have been successful.

The only bad thing is that GM has to choose now which brands it wants to keep. After the bankruptcy, it'd be very expensive to drop any. So given what's been posted here, things don't look good for Pontiac. It's kill it now or kill it never. And I've not seen anything from GM or the government that makes me think 'never' is likely.

Besides, the annual will they/won't they would be incredibly distracting. Get it over with and focus on the future. No more painful dragged out brand deaths, with years of rumor followed by 3-4 years of slow death.

Link to Article

US directs GM to prep for bankruptcy filing-NY Times

Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:08pm EDT

It's looking more and more like the bankruptcy is inevitable, especially given the rumors that the bondholders would prefer a default, for which they could put in a claim. This 363 is also a way to get it over with very quickly, with respect to the continuing part of the business.

Judging by the responses everyday people on the street give this reviewer, and other ones, I think a certain San Francisco 'journalist' will find his opinions aren't widely shared.

He's an idiot. My opinion of the Chronicle went down when I read his column, full of tired stereotypes and bashing people for liking things that he doesn't care about.

I think it would be hilarious if Alpha turns out to be a smaller, lighter variant of Zeta. A 4 and 6 would be plenty in such a car.

It is interresting how the Mustang was so close in the scoring to the camaro. I think that the mustang has matured very well with the new redisign. It is not a faster car then the camaro but it lays down its power with more efficency and it's light weight helps make up for 75 out of the 100 or so horsepower difference. the fact that the stang is 4.9 to 60 and 13.5 through the quarter when the comaro is 4.6 and 13.0 is really amazing. Add to that the act that they are so close to eachother in braking and handling test and I would say that the camaro, while a world class car and clearly better then the mustang, is only marginally better, which is a credit to the mustang's performance and not a jab against the camaro. When the mustang gets the 400hp 5.0 dohc and 6 speed transmissions next year this will have to be revaluated, the finishing order may have to change,

The Mustang is 300 pounds lighter, yet it gets the same fuel economy. Part of the reason, I believe, is the shorter axle ratio, which helps it get the 13.5s 1/4 mile. I'll be surprised -- amazed even -- if the Mustang doesn't pick up 50 pounds with the 5.0. It'll probably get a taller axle ratio to help fuel economy. My guess is that it will be very close to the Camaro in acceleration.

I agree, next year's comparison will be interesting too.

Um... Yeah. Why they don't sell this here instead of the DTS I don't understand- it would cut costs and its got some luxury goods you can't get on the DTS.

Rumor (speculation?) has it that the side impact performance is not up to U.S. luxury market standards.

Only when a brand of which I've owned 5 of is going to be killed for no reason at all when a much weaker, more damaged brand gets to live on. When management of the company can't figure out what they are doing, and cost themselves money by their on again off again, cancel a progrem after it's 75% developed antics, then decide to kill Pontiac because that's their scapegoat. Kill Zeta because someone in Europe has a problem with it, blaming it on CAFE even while the Camaro will get better gas mileage than the smaller, lighter, less powerful Malibu. Not sending Alpha to Pontiac because someone in GM is hellbent on killing it to save Buick. Why the hell do we come here if we don't care about a certain brand/company?

I've got to disagree with you here. Plenty of good reasons for killing Pontiac have been stated all over the media and in forums like these.

As far as product cancellations go, GM has this cash flow problem that you may have heard about. That's what companies do when they have cash flow problems -- cancel products that have the least return on investment.

Buick versus Pontiac? China.

I don't like that old brands that I know and love disappearing. I didn't like Oldsmobile disappearing (I own 3 Cutlasses from '70 - '71). But I can see why they're doing it. I can see reasons not to do it too, but I won't pretend to know the One Right Answer. Nor will I claim that all of GM's current problems would be avoided if Olds were still around, nor even that GM would be better off if Olds were still around. I actually claim to know none of these things, but I do claim that I understand the reasons for shutting down Olds and for gradually shutting down Pontiac.

Simple.

Alpha is not a natural for Buick, and it is for a Pontiac.

I don't see that as being negative toward Buick, I simply see it as using logic.

Today. But what about 2014?

It sounds like they're going to eventually move Pontiac models to either Buick or Chevy. Though I would not be surprised if GM changes their mind again and gives Pontiac another chance. I've noticed that the future of Pontiac is constantly in flux.

Hmmmm, didn't Lutz say the current generation of the Zeta dies in North America around 2013, never to return?

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?showtopic=27725

That's not quite what it says. It says that there won't be any more non-Holden Zetas and that the Holden Zetas will get a refresh in 2013.

It mentions that the G8's fate will be tied to Pontiac's.

So I infer that if Pontiac is still around in 2013, it could get the updated Holden Zeta.

He really didn't say anything in that article about when the North American Zeta (aka Camaro) would end production.

If it turns out that a Chevy Alpha is shown in a 2014 autoshow, then presumably it would be ready for MY2015 at the earliest. Would GM have another hiatus for Camaro?

Try downloading the new version: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?promoid=DXLUJ

"Sorry, your platform is not supported."

That's why I don't like flash.

At least Java and Javascript work.