Dark Phoenix

That's kinda scary though. I hope they don't change anything but that before it goes on sale.

Well get to it man! Chop chop!

lol I respond when and how necessary. It was suggested that I/We buy the lower end counter part, from the "everyman" brand rather than DEMANDING the car we want back. Funny how it was ok for you lot to rally and rant until you got it back, but now we have to remain silent. Too many people seem to think "well it's the same thing" and "they steal sales from each other" and "there's no point in making them both" and that's all total crap. Hyper wasn't trying to set me off and I wasn't trying to argue with him, but he more or less implied that I should transition to a sub-par version. That I should lower my standards and accept whatever GM deigns to offer me. Or perhaps, more to the point, he didn't realize that I don't give a crap about chassis designations and that drive-train layout is but a mere background requirement. Always hated camaros - even before I gave a crap about Pontiacs or had any brand loyalty. Fell in love with the Trans Am. There is VALUE in producing both. But see, we wouldn't have dragged this further off topic if you didn't feel personally attacked and try to tell me to STFU. That tends to have a negative reaction. lol Believe it or not, I don't seek out opportunities to talk trash about it, and would be perfectly happy to never have to even think about it. So what say we just go back to on topic?

Was watching Setup last night, and I still think that this is a good campaign. But so many people are railing against it, maybe it's not as "obvious" as a good campaign needs to be. "Car" is not meant to be a reference to an automobile. That clearly would not make sense. But Car as a concept is something totally different. Think of it this way, car = cool. Use them interchangably and it makes more sense. "Yo, that is totally car!" Sounds weird, yeah, but we're not used to it, and in the right context (ie, Pontiac commercial), it works much better. I like SuperSport's idea - "Pontiac - For Those Who Get It". It perfectly explains the lower sales volume too as most people in general just clearly don't get it. lol And it's actually reminiscent of the old Packard slogan "Ask the man who owns one" Pontiac - - Try to Keep Up (both a demand to the buying public (to "get it" better), and a taunt to it's competitors) - Attitude - Passion - Fire - Born from Tracks (nod to saab - how can you cite jets an imply performance when everything is FWD? ) - For Serious Drivers Only (yes, inspired by VW's "Drivers Wanted") - Weapons Grade Fun (Weapons Grade referring to the arrow head, double entendre) - Tracked Widely (lol, just a joke, inverted Wide Track) - Yes! It's a Pontiac (lol many said that was the response to the reaction the first pre-production Solsti got on the streets)

I am well aware of the history, thank you. So much so that that I am aware of how (a lot of) the success of what you feel it so necesary to defend is owed to the Trans Am. lol (2nd Gen chassis - Pontiac, Corvette 350 use - thanks to Pontiac's petitioning of top brass, luxuries and options - trickle down from Pontiac. That's just to name a few. They both owe a lot to each other, it's just that the chevy is, well... a chevy. [And there is a reason I don't hang out in and post in that section ])

camaro..... I may own a car build on the F chassis, but I bought a Trans Am. My 3rd one in fact. Because I wanted a Trans Am. Not "an F-Body". Sure as hell not a frickin camaro. GM got my attention, my money, and (so far at least) die-hard loyalty, which has lead to me carrying the banner everywhere and talking up the virtues and defending the 'faith' through the roughest of times to the toughest of critics. But if they go and slap a GTO badge on a camaro twin, when it's just as easy (and more proper) to put a Firebird badge on it..... If they piss on us like that..... I'll look into a Challenger SRT8 6-speed. (and it's a real shame because it'll be a hard decision at that point to buy a Solstice Coupe, when so far it would be an obvious no-brainer [not for the same reasons or purpose, mind you]) As for time moving on, well, perhaps. The Duesenberg can still smoke many Korean white good appliances on 4 wheels. And the WS6 can still out run MANY cars from many years after it's end of production. Which is actually all the more impressive when you consider that the design really stagnated in '99. Cars that are considered "performers" today. Even in stock trim, but especially with a set of Brembo blanks, better pads, and some Konis (+1000 if you toss in Strano springs and sways). It truly shocks many people to learn what it can do (and I'm not implying you, please don't mis-understand that, I mean the import guys mostly). So saying "time has moved on" really isn't fair, and in my personal opinion, not really relevant, since nothing else matches the styling, let alone the styling combined with the utility, performance and bang for the buck. So Lamar, another question, did you aggressively change lanes or toss it around at all? A common complaint seems to be a lack of roll stiffness. Apparently they don't want to stiffen the springs or shocks any more and lose that nice ride, but I have to wonder why they didn't just add more bar. (or even a touch more rebound damping, but that's still no substitute for bar) I wonder if it's as bad as all the mag reviews claim. To listen to them it practially scrapes it's door handles. I wonder if the Stabilitrak is tied into the DoD. Seems it would be much more effective than pulling timing or forcng the throttle closed.

mmm, I'd have to slightly disagree there. Of the current lineup? Yes. But you said "in decades". LS1 WS6 T/A is more athletic, and IMO a more "pure" expression of what Pontiac styling is all about (marriage of form and function, and raucous attitude that intimidates and _demands_ attention). Not to mention us over-6-foot-ers fit better, have more room to carry stuff (even for a weekend trip). http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r71/tygarceau/tyscar4.jpg http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/b...pg?t=1202584994 http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee257/b...pg?t=1202585045 But that aside, I'm with you in drooling over the Soltice Coupe. God that thing rocks. If I had the cash on hand, I'd line up to buy one. Pure, raw driving experience - have to be sans ABS or TCS or Stabilitrak or OnStar. Z0K equipped. Probably in that show car's color, or maybe SOM. A few simple tweaks, and get that bad boy between the cones. Regarding the Sky.... god I sure as hell hope not. The sky is ugly, doesn't belong at a saturn dealer (a saturn sports car? I mean, really....!), and besides, it's called the "Sky" because it's a roadster. Can't close it up. They'd have to change the name to the Roof or something. lol

Someone basically made one for the aftermarket - http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/20...0103.002.1M.jpg Not exactly what you meant, but it has that look.

Well, there are options. Formulas should be cheap. While they aren't exactly plentiful, they aren't so rare as to have that spike the price. They just were never all that popular, so they should run quite a bit less than a Trans Am (especially a WS6). Of course, WS6 Fomulas are a different story. There were VERY few of those in the LS1 era and I'm sure the cost will be higher with those too. "base" Trans Ams (if you can make such a statement lol) should also be cheaper than WS6 models, both because they were cheaper to buy, and because everyone wants "teh ram air". And of course, Firebirds are cheap too. Now, that said, I know you want a WS6, so here's what ya do. Track down a "base" Formy or Trans Am, then buy either an OEM WS6 hood, or a Raptor, or a WS9 hood, and then mod the rest of the car however you want. (just don't badge it as a WS6 then, please - there are WS7 badges made for WS6 clones that look factory) To be honest, if you jump to 18s, or wider than 275s, and especially if you lower it, and/or change the sway bars, you've eliminated, and possibly even gone beyond what makes a car a "WS6". The flat hoods make just as much power. Alternately, you could get a Firebird, then put a couple of hair dryers on it. Sort of like a re-incarnation of the '89 Anniversary T/A. That would be kinda cool (especially with LT1 styling, IMO). Any of those will get you WS6 performance (or more) and the looks, for less money. Just don't wreck or excessively beat on it, please. I hate to see Trans Ams being daily driven. Used, and used hard, yes, but daily driven is just excessive wear and tear, it's being wasted in rush hour traffic jams. Or..... you could wait till '09 and get a Solstice Coupe.

Hey hyper. I don't want to give the impression that I'm following you around to argue, because I'm not. lol I just keyed in on these points and wanted to remark on them (and do hope that this doesn't side-track the thread, apologies to the OP - great review btw, good to hear stuff like this). Regarding solid, the GTO is more solid, yes, but it's also a few hundred pounds heavier. However, the 4th Gen doesn't really flex all that much. Most of what people interpret as flex is a combination of weak interiors and horrid shocks. Those stock shocks (DeCarbons) are the biggest steaming pile of crap to ever get bolted on a car. Put some Bilsteins (especially revalved ones), or Koni SAs on a 4th Gen and it is TOTALLY transformed and whole different beast. With the Bilsteins, you will see massive refinement, and an improvement in handling. With the Koni's you see lots of refinment (just not as much as the Bilsteins), and downright amazing handling. IIRC, the 4th Gens are something like 45% stiffer than the thirds, were designed to be 'verts from the outset, and I know of one that was road raced, auto-xed and drag raced for well over 100,000 miles and is just fine, and another that was rolled at over 100mph and the driver posted pics later and hte car still looked useable (all ya had to do was replace the C-pillar/sail panel). They are built like tanks. Which is why they are 3500 lbs (when an S-14 Silvia is nearly the same size, with an engine that weighs the same or a few pounds more, and is only 2700 lbs). Also, I'm 6'2" and 230lbs. And a friend of mine is 6' 170 lbs (way underweight and wasting away). One day we went to track down a noise and I threw him in the back seat and he disappeared back there. Later we switched, and to my utter amazement, I not only fit, but I fit comfortably. Head room is tight, yes, you do have to lean over a little or tilt your head, and you do have to place your knees around the back of the seat in front of you, but(!), you don't interfere with the front occupants and it's not the least bit uncomfortable. It's not a place I'd want to spend several hours in, but up to an hour would be fine really. (and because of this, I have nixed the idea of a rear-seat delete, which I had initially intended to do) Lamar, when and how did the AFM come on and go off? You said you could feel it. Does it only come on after a set time, or is on the default and you have to matt it to get it to go off and allow full power?

Going on a fishing trip? Or have you given up on the WS6? (if so, what happened?)

What he said. But I didn't make the image. lol Here's a better post of the second one I tried to link -

Enh... They all look good. The Red one should be the base trim though. It looks great, but has that base model look about it. The black chop does look really good. But ya know, some people love the catfish too, even though I think it's hideous. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachment.p...81997&stc=1

Yeah, great fun on an open highway or windy back roads. 2 more of my favorites - For high energy (poor recording, and the video is irrelevant, only studio version I could find) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oh1vqTDNc...feature=related (bastards video makes it feel slow) And both for energy and, well, association lol -

Here ya go, this should help cleanse the palette - btw - I recommend not playing that in your future Formy, Hawk, or Trans Am - it's dangerous.