OCN2

Genesis sold over 7,500 G80s last month in Korea. Think they'll be more than fine w/ the new G80. That's more (about a 1k more) than all the Lexus GS sold here in 2018 and more than 2x what the GS did in sales last year.

If Genesis is still going ahead w/ the coupe, then it'll be a 7 model lineup. If the Mint and Essentia concepts get the greenlight, it would be 9, w/ likely another dedicated BEV or 2 added at a later date. Wouldn't exactly say German Big 3, as least not here in the US. For much of its run, the Genesis sedan/G80 has outsold the A6, and when the new model hits, should do so again, and the G90 has been outselling the A8. Too early yet for Genesis to launch a performance division, so a Sport model/trim will have to do. As the new G80 is getting a Sport trim, the GV80 may get one as well. But something the size/weight of the GV80 is not really suited for performance as is the smaller GV70; think a 420+ HP GV70 should be enough power/performance to satisfy most. For those who want more, there's the eGV70 (can't beat instant torque from a BEV system). But the eGV70 (not being based on a dedicated BEV platform) likely won't have the performance chops of the dedicated EV Genesis CUV. Like the production version of Kia's Imagine CUV, should have Taycan level performance (sub 3s 0-60 time) - using the same electric propulsion as the Porsche (Porsche and HMG both have an ownership stake in Rimac which oversees their performance electrics). Would that be quick enough for you? As already stated, the GV80 already has nearly 10k pre-orders. Add a more powerful Sport trim and the electric - should attract more buyers. The Q7 did 34.6k in sales last year. Once the GV80 gets all its variations/powertrains, don't think 28k-32k in sales is unreasonable (assuming, of course, things get back to normal, or close to it).

The CT4 ($32,995) correlates w/ the XT4 ($35,695) - which is Cadillac's competitor to German sub-entry CUVs like the GLB ($38,050).

Agree w/ everything until the CT4 and CT5 part. In developing the ATS (and Alpha platform), Mark Reuss wanted to badly beat the 3 Series at its own game. Problem was, Reuss benchmarked the E90 3 Series 109" WB), when he should have known that the next 3er was going to get larger (which it did w/ the F30 - 110.6" WB). The WB of the ATS (109.3" WB) was almost identical to that of the E90. So by the time the ATS went into production in 2012, it was already being outclassed by the F30 which went into production a year earlier in 2011. Further exacerbating things, Reuss and the engineers working on the ATS made it so that handling prowess was maximized at the expense of trunk space. In terms of passenger/trunk space, the ATS was more in line w/ something like the A3 (and now the A Class) than the A4 and C Class. As an aside, the Alpha platform is the gift that keeps on giving - the 3G CTS was also tighter when it came to passenger space than its competition (5 Series/E Class) and when the Camaro switched over to the Alpha, interior room got squeezed and sales tanked (the ancient Challenger, w/ its copious amount of passenger space in comparison, started to outsell the Camaro, and by a good margin at that). The CT4 is not the replacement for the ATS. The CT4 has the exact same WB as the ATS (109.3" WB). Why would Cadillac make the exact same mistake again for its compact/entry-level offering? Yes, the CT4 is longer in overall length (187.2" compared to 182.8"), but that's pretty much all behind the rear axle - which was necessary to provide enough rear headroom w/ the new sloping roofline. Like you had stated, the ATS-L should have replaced the ATS here in the US, but its WB is 112.6", making it a good bit roomier in the passenger compartment than the CT4, but there would have been a political price to pay for importing it from China and it wasn't worth the cost of tooling a plant here to produce it. The CTS was on a different platform that was longer (114.6" WB) and wider than the WB for the ATS-L. Furthermore, why would Cadillac drop the price of its compact/entry-level offering (if it were the CT4) down to $32,995? That's a whopping $6k lower than the base price of the ATS ($38,995) which was already priced below the 3 Series ($40,750) and the C Class ($41,400). That $32,995 price of the CT4 is below that of the A Class ($33,650), much less the CLA ($37,850) and they are FWD-based. So are you saying that Cadillac's brand cachet is so damaged, that its compact offering has to be priced below MB's FWD subcompact offerings, and around $8,500 below the C Class? That's also below the base price of the Acura TLX ($33,000), another FWD model. As for the CT5, it starts at $36,895, lower than the price of the ATS. Why in the heck would Cadillac's newest mid-segment offering be priced lower than its old compact offering? And that's $17k below the price of the E Class ($54,050). The new G80 is expected to start around $46k-48k ($47k, btw, is where the CTS starts), so Cadillac has to undercut Genesis by $10k as well? None of that makes any sense. But it's not just that; spent plenty of time on a Cadillac forum which included input from an insider who had access to Cadillac's future roadmap and read pretty much everything JdN had stated about his plans for Cadillac. Like I had stated before, Cadillac went back to the strategy of the 2G CTS in providing more room than the competition, which also did away w/ the need for a separate LWB variants for China (JDN having focused on China as the market to drive increased volume). The planned sedan lineup was as follows: CT4 - sub-entry CT5 - compact/entry CT6 - midsize CT7/CT8 - flagship CT8/CT9 - uber-flagship The 2G CT6 was canceled, or at the very least, suspended. The Omega-based CT7/CT8 was canceled. The uber-flagship morphed into the Celestiq EV.

The NX is more the GV70 competitor, but neither the NX nor the RX will have the handling or performance of the GV70 (we'll eventually see the 420+ HP 3.5TT in the GV70, which likely will get beaten in performance by the eGV70). And how exactly do you know that? International reviews of the KDM G80 have stated otherwise. The Genesis sedan has been around since 2008 and the Equus/Centennial dates back to 1999. smk has been wrong on many things, but he/she is correct on the CT5 - it is Cadillac's entry-level competitor (even if they are saying that it also stretches to replace the CTS). Despite its larger size, the CT5 is priced for the entry/compact segment, like the predecessor to the ATS, the 2G CTS. After the failure of the ATS due to its quizzically cramped cabin (can thank Mark Reuss for that fiasco), Cadillac went back to its prior formula of offering more space at the price-point (Genesis also does this w/ the G80 and Infiniti w/ the Q50). This is also correct. What Cadillac did for its new sedans was to basically make them LWB from the start, hence, doing away w/ the need to develop a separate LWB for China (so what you get here is the same size as what you get in China; no separate LWB variant like the ATS-L). There was a 2G CT6 planned that was supposed to take over the role of the 3G CTS as the 5 Series/E Class competitor, but got canceled (there have been rumblings of Cadillac re-entering that segment w/ an electric vehicle).

^ Thanks riviera. Yes, the GV80 will be the 1st of 3 CUVs. GV80 GV70 Dedicated BEV CUV Both the GV80 and GV70 likely also get EV variants. Also, I'm sure Genesis is mulling over whether they should go ahead w/ the GV90, or maybe a smaller CUV (GV60). The G80 has sold way better than the GS and w/ the F/L G90, sales are neck-and-neck w/ the LS 500. The ATP for Genesis and Lexus are also on par w/ each other, so w/ the addition of the GV80 and the new G80, the ATP for Genesis should surpass that of Lexus. As Tesla has shown, what you have done in the past doesn't matter nearly as much these days. Genesis will have an electrified lineup before the Japanese. There's a G80 Sport on the way (reportedly around 420 HP), as well as the aforementioned electrified eG80. As stated above, there's already around 10k pre-orders for the GV80. Doubt there would be too many H/K buyers trading up to a $50k-to-nearly $70k CUV (maybe something like the GV70). The ones that will likely would be from the top spec of the Palisade and Telluride.

But maybe the new (butter-)face of the F/L E Class will... The materials for the interior in the Stinger is better than in the Telluride. Also, unlike what Kia NA had expected, it's the higher-priced 3.3TT V6 Stinger that sells. The Genesis brand was only founded 4 years ago. 3.5 years is a pretty turn around to develop a new model - the GV80, esp. one w/ an all-new platform, new engines, rash of new tech, etc. Speaking of platforms, the reason why didn't develop a CUV earlier is b/c they needed to develop a lighter-weight platform first to compensate for the increased weight of a CUV; the outgoing Genesis G80 was already on the heavy side as is, so basing the GV80 on the old platform would have made for a heavy, fuel-thirsty CUV. Also, the new lighter-weight platform was developed so that it can also incorporate a BEV powertrain (which is on top of having additional EVs on a dedicated BEV platform). The eG80 is already undergoing testing and Genesis has filed for trademarks for an eGV80, etc., so Genesis will have a full lineup of electrics before any of the Japanese lux makes. That doesn't seem like incompetency to me (not that there hasn't been missteps at Genesis USA w/ regard to the retail network, which is why management has changed). As for starting w/ 3 sedans (putting aside the platform weight thing), that's what the domestic market dictates. SKorea is one of the largest and most profitable markets for MB and BMW when it comes to selling the E/S Class and 5/7 Series. MB sold 10k E Class in SK in a 3 year period. Strong domestic market sales (which correlates w/ Genesis continuing to invest and upgrade; something that the Japanese and American makes did not do). For most of its run, the Genesis/G80 has placed 3rd in its segment, ahead of the A6, and should do so again w/ the new model. And w/ all the non-European competition gone or half-way out the door, the buyers in this segment who want something other than a Euro will only have one choice. Genesis has around 10k pre-orders for the GV80 and that's before any real national advertising campaign/commercials.