regfootball

GP was a 5 year old model by then and this is the g8's first year out of the chute. part of why the GP tanked at the end was it was stale.

ford feels they have a better shot of building on the technology they have already spent and paid for. its not a bad solution, and maybe they just want to see acceptance of the public to the e-rev. in the meantime, the fusion hybrid is the best, and the plug in portion is building on what they have already engineered and spent resources on.

Lutz helped get some GM mojo back with cars like the CTSv, g8, Cobalt SS, etc. He also pushed for better mainstream models some also. Yet, clearly its time GM moved on. GM needs a younger push to more mainstream focus. Not toyotaesque, but something more back to bread and butter and the masses.

pontiac sold how many?

There's nothing wrong with that. That's what Cadillac has always been. There are a whole host of reasons why Cadillac will never match the Germans starting with it's not German. For a lot of luxury buyers (most of whom want snob appeal whether they admit it or not) the fact that the car is expensive and is perceived as being built in the Old World tradition (whether or not that's true) and then was carefully shipped over the North Atlantic means something. Cadillac should play to its traditional strengths: comfort, style and relative value. "Standard of the World" is never coming back.

if the cadillac chassis was designed in germany.........

I would have to agree. What GM doesn't understand about Europeans is that when it comes to the vehicles that they drive, they are very nationalistic and support the home team. They will 1st look at what's being produced in their home country, then region, then Europe as a whole.

Too bad North Americans don't think like that ...

which is why Opel needs a flagship sedan. its own Phaeton, except not so pricey and outrageous.

Hyundai has a genesis. Opel needs something that can outdo that and compete with its hometown boys.

i wonder if pontiac and saturn will become clones as GM fades both brands away. Dodge/Plymouth Neon anyone?

the death of pontiac to me is dispicable. yet, to me pontiac is needed as the altar ego of buick and the only way to keep buick showrooms from being relevant to anyone who can still pee by themselves. Seriously, everyone I see driving Enclaves is as geriatric as Lexus and Toyota. Side note, Hyundai is going to eat toyota's lunch some day a lot sooner than everyone else thinks.

Hence, if Pontiac is going to die, and Buick is going to be non-believable, just call it Opel and get it all over with now.

i'll sell you the Aztek. That's close to what I'd want for it.

fetchin young lad would do well cruzing the world in an asstek.

The Zeta platform is going to die in North America after the current generation (this has already been stated by GM), and depending on GM's financial situation OZ may or may not get another generation, so then what?

point being, this would carry them about 2 years until they get an all new one rushed to market. what, can't GM get a car to market in 2 years like Ford and Toyota?

i would axe buick if opel was a no go here. saturn or pontiac would survive as the opel in NA cars. I just don't see the brand equity for buick with anyone besides old people. Pontiac at least would have a chance. Saturn too. But I do think introducing the Opel brand here, albeit slow and painful, could have a chance over time.

I am wondering if we will see a crossover backlash by the public as well which could dramatically turn people towards sedans again. In that case I do not see much more for GM crossovers than the Lambdas, and the Equinox, Antara, and SRX.

I just don't see Buick as being fully parallel and compatible with Opel. But basically China needs Buick and so what needs to happen then is basically Buick China and Opel need to be in full sync because I doubt there will be funded Buick NA exclusive products too much longer........

They probably can pull off the Insignia / Regal thing and have it be believable. Corsa and Astra however, there is NFW they can make them into Buicks. The only version of the Astra that is believable as a Buick would be a sedan. Both the Corsa and Astra need to be here, IMHO and they cannot be Buicks. This is why it needs to be Opel in NA or else it needs to have a deathmatch to see if these become Saturns or Pontiacs. Buick Corsa? I think not.

Currently they say Pontiac is 'niche' now. Also we know the G6 and G8 will probably die. If this is the case, let's just get it over with now. Rename the G6 'Grand Am' and rename the G8 'Grand Prix' and at least let them die in dignity. Personally though I see no problem in letting grand prix and grand am live on in their next lives if they invest and do a good job making them.

Whatever chassis GM comes up with to replace the zeta needs to be kick ass and needs to be AWD capable. I seriously feel Opel needs a flagship car too, and I would go so far to say it should be a global serious ass platform that is the next DTS / flagship Opel / volume Chevy or Buick large car chassis. And I am not talking Epsilon. I am talking serious hardware here.

Buick Sky? um, NO. I am still failing to see how GM will remake and repair Buick to align with the product qualities of Opel. I seriously think they are not capable of making this work.

in this scenario, i would vastly expand Chevy's lineup. The G8 would become the new Impala. The Holden Caprice becomes Chevy Caprice. Chevy would get a deluge of new models and products pronto.

Cadillac gets more models too.

so, really, what if?

Could GM make do globally with 3 brands? These are the three I propose.

Chevy

Opel

Cadillac

So, basically GM will be Ford?

L-A-M-E... Count me out if this is the direction we're "advancing" the company.

ford has a future and a plan.

ford will not fail.

gm might.

Saab is so toast unless it gets autonomy from the swedish whatever. saab cannot exist alone without techlogical allegiance to some sort of large borg.

flipside. you cannot give the NA brands autonomy. it would be making bad situation worse.

GM someday will be just chevy and cadillac and a niche middle brand. I want to see opel fill that role. i like buick, i like pontiac, but i think the public has moved on and the GME has so much to offer GM as a whole.

Look at how fast Nissan high tailed it out of there.

I want someone to clarify exactly how many auto related jobs are in CA....what i want to know is HOW MANY AUTO ASSEMBLY PLANTS are in california. I don't need to know if some doofus has his feet up in his office in the Lexus or Mazda building, or if some subservient American is taking whippings in the dark room from the guys sent over from Kia in Korea when they didn't meet sales targets.

I know GM has the NUMMI plant where they build the chick wagons (Vibe/Matrix). CA is 'the largest auto market'. What I want to know is, what percentage of the cars they consume are MADE IN CALFORNIA.

Seems rather stupid from a business perspective to consume all those cars and not build any of them there. That is an imbalance that the Pelosis of the world should feel embarassed and negligent about.

The Sonata interior is just as good as the Malibu's or Fusion's. The Accord is still best in class, but the Sonata isn't 3rd tier. And their V6 is 249 hp, and 19/29 mpg, which is pretty good mileage for a V6. Not that I'd buy one, but they give you a lot for the money.

G8 tried to be the budget BMW, and no one cared or believed it, and why did GM launch it with an unrefined V6 in the first place, or a cheapish interior? Why not get it right the first time out? They should have never compared it to BMW, and GM needs brands that have their own unique identity, not with the goal of being a cheap knock off of other brands. Buick shouldn't be a poor man's Lexus, they should be Buick. Cadillac should be Cadillac, not part BMW, part Lexus, at a discount. BMW and Mercedes never compare themselves to any other brand, they only continually push their image. Honda does the same thing, they have focus.

GM should be Chevy, Buick, GMC (for commercial trucks, vans, fleets) and Cadillac by the end of 2009. Everything else they make is a drain on the company, and Buick should be on a very short leash. Personally I thought Buick was dead in 2006, and I am not sure it is possible to save them, but I think GM should have something between Chevy and Cadillac.

the accord i drove recently had a crap interior and honestly was not that solid of a car. plus, its ugly. if you consider that top of class, be my guest. The accord is not that great of a car. A couple seasons of winter potholes and its flimsy chassis will be mush, if you haven't vomited from the style excessively by then.

g8 actually can perform on extremely close to on par with the BMW's. the only reason the v6 is currently unrefined is its application which is much smoothers in other GM vehicles, needs some NVH tuning and a better transmission in the v6 version. I have no doubt that a 6 speed DI v6 with some additional NVH tuning for 2010 will address this stuff. Praise has already been heaped on the v6 in the Zeta Camaro predrives.

Sonata's interior prior to this year was a joke. Now its simply mid pack. the styling is geriatric and themed off a nineties version ford escort sedan. You love to heap praise on Hyundai, a brand that has made its living off of fleeting most of their product for the last couple years, because the homeland mafia doesn't believe in moderating production...........aided by a warranty that is all tagline and not much real benefit to most customers.

You talk about all these great cars that are supposedly prestigious and then you use Hyundai as an example. Hyundai is still faux. The Genesis is the only model they have put out that has any chance of redefining the brand to anything other than what it is. Cheap knockoffs. And the Genesis is merely 'Lexus' 20 years later.

I think you'll find that the 3.5 Aura has a 0 - 60 time of about 7.9. That's what C/D got for the Pontiac G6GT with the 3.5/4 speed.

Regards:

Oldengineer

that makes sense then. the 2.4/6 malibu came in at 8.6 0-60 at CD.

door handles are ungodly large and tacky

interior is dull and plain and lifeless

exterior is ok.

upcoming astra is much nicer. exteriors aren't much different but the new astra interior is pretty nice. i also tend to agree this fiat is a bit of a ford clone. the next focus is what i wanna see. that should be the bomb.

i'd be looking at the similar peuguot before i'd get on board with the dull interior in this thing. new megane is pretty stylish too.

OFF_TOPIC

I feel you reg. My wife and stepson have Asperger's Syndrome. Maybe our son as well. It is an interesting thing, I am hesitant to call it an affliction or disease, especially when considering our time together. Its just... different. Some things are harder of course, but there are pluses as well.

yup. there are things about 'normal' kids that don't even seem to be a part of my daughter's pysche. She doesn't like to be mean to others, she doesn't get materialistic, she doesn't obsess about material possessions and she doesn't ever seek out chances to hurt other kids. She might live her life on a simpler naive scale, but she isn't the brat that a lot of kids are today. She's sometimes to me like she's already grown up in a lot of ways. And once you learn what makes her tick, all the little routines and repetitions she relies on to get through the day, and you learn how to talk to her, it fun even if its different than how others talk to their kids.

Well shucks, you know, pure water is bad for you too.

yep. i've read about that too. thats why minerals are added to bottled water.

wife cooked only 6 slices of bacon the other night.

i let the pan sit out overnight. OMG all the fat in the pan from only 6 slices. Dear God. EWE.

But bacon is so worth it, IMHO.

Wow this thread took one hell of a left turn.

i wonder if the elephant appreciates his penis baked. or would rotisserie keep it juicier?

I have always said GM should make rear wheel drive cars. Although I think importing the G8 from Australia is a half-assed way to do it, they should have designed something from scratch like they did with the original CTS, but for Chevy/Buick use. I also think GM should build more small to medium rear drivers, rear drive cars don't have to be full size or over 4,000 pounds. If they build the best car in the world, they'll find customers, if they build mediocre and try to sell the deal, they won't. They need to start advertising cars and not mentioning price or discounts.

What Hyundai did right is build an excellent car that was able to change the perception of their brand, and got people to look more closely at Hyundai and see the value in their cars. The Santa Fe, Veracruz and Sonata all have pretty good interiors and powertrains and are priced lower than comparable Japanese brands. Plus the long warranty and assurance plan, I can see why Hyundai is a growing brand.

hyundai sells because it is cheap.

veracruz feels cheap inside. sonata is third tier. the warranty is a come on. its a tag line and people don't read the actual fine print. the reason the genesis works so far is because it sells as a budget lexus. the g8 makes no such pretense. it compares it performance to a BMW, but make no pretense of being a poser car like the genesis is. the G8's only flaws are no available RWD, unrefine v6 powertrain (which is fixed in 2010) and it probably should have an OHC v8 option. the g8's interior should be a little nicer, but its not trying to be a lexus replacement.

Wow, this is pretty ugly. What's real crazy is how GM only sold about 12000 more units than Toyota last month.

Obviously this has a lot to do with our bad economy, people losing jobs, and many buyers (including rental car companies) who need or want a car not being able to get it financed. But if you really look at these numbers and begin to realize just how badly some of these mainstream models like the G6 and Impala did without the benefit of fleet sales, it really starts to sink in just how badly GM was positioned to weather this kind of a storm when it came to their cars.

Nothing bothers me more than when I hear or read people making that infamous comment that "GM builds cars people don't want to buy" - but in a way there is a little bit of truth to that statement unfortunately. When you look at GM and compare them to Toyota for January sales, you start to really see where they totally aren't competitive in the small and mid size market. Yes, the new Malibu is nice, and I have a feeling that the new Cruze (and Volt) will probably be pretty nice little cars, but where in the hell were these cars five years ago?

Times are awful for the entire industry, but I think it has really exposed how truly weak GM is in some very critical segments. What a disaster.

GM should be readying the plan for a fully funded remake of a new Malibu for 2012 model year. The new design and cheap interior will become big flaws in the market in not too long. New Impala should be 2010-11. Cruze will help but its too late too. Even the trucks need an interior complete redo.

Many in GM are wishing they had those fleet sales now. Even if they only made a small profit, it was still a profit. Oh you should hear the lamenting and the gnashing of teeth.

fleet sales are fine. what GM effed on was fleeting out cars that were 5,6,7 years into production without updates. i.e. GM totally sucks at keeping products fresh. people thought fleeting was what killed resale. UM NO. its old product that reduces showroom demand that kills resale.

If I were running GM I would be pounding pavement to make big fleet sales right now to keep unit volumes up and possibly be increasing share. Few carmakers will be profitable in the next year, so its better to gain share with losing some dough than it is to not sell cars. The current demand for used cars will drive the used car prices up eventually, it already has, and resales are holding pretty well or going up on many cars out there. So fleeting and taking market from Toyo and Hyundai and Kia with some Cobalts and G6's and LaCrosses I hardly find a problem.