smk4565

 Last year Daimler had a $58,600 ATP including Smart cars.  Even with Smart and CLA's dragging them down they still beat Cadillac, BMW, Lexus and Audi.  The E-class is priced like a CT6 and actually goes higher in price than the CT6, and outsells CTS, XTS and CT6 combined, so it isn't like Mercedes is selling some cheap car to get sales.   

Speaking of Cadillac though, I was wondering the other day why they don't combine up a pair of 3.0TT V6s from the CT6 to make a 6 liter TT V12 for the Escalade?   Seems like a no brainer.

25 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Incorrect. Cadillac has high ATP because higher trim models are being sold. 

I'd love to see ATP's of ATS and CTS compared to the German rivals.  CT6 is hard to compare to rivals because it isn't priced like any of them. 

1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

U equate sales.. sales to cachet.. in the luxury market??? Lunacy.. for so many reasons. Fact is that every sale of the CTS and ATS are still profitable.. very profitable in fact.. they help very much with that highest or damn near highest ATP in the segment. Mercedes sells so many BS cheap people cars that its ATP reflects that they are more.. at this point.. just another mainstream maker.. maaaaaybe on par with Nissan/Infiniti. Oh.. and f@#k Mercedes.

Cadillac has a high ATP because Escalade is like 20-25% of their sales volume.  Wait until XT4 goes on sales and that ATP drops into the $40k range.

I don't equate cache to sales, the Porsche 911 has plenty of cache and not a lot of volume.  I'd even say the Jaguar XF has more cache than a CTS and no one buys Jaguar XFs.

And maybe Mercedes is on par with Nissan or Infiniti, yet Cadillac can't beat them on  their home turf.  Billions spent on ATS and CTS only to price them $5-10k less than the rival Mercedes and get outsold by wide margin.

Only 40% ???  

I don't think anyone has a mid-size hatch back right now, so this could be a first.  I don't know if a Regal hatch or wagon will sell, but is worth a try.  People see to be running away from anything with a traditional trunk.

The graphs tell the story.  Cars outsold light trucks in 2012, three years later light trucks outsold cars by 2 million units.  And that gap is still growing.  You'll start to see brands with 5-6 crossovers and 2-3 passenger cars become a common thing.

ATS and CTS sales are both hurting though, I don't think either have any cache in the market place.  Rumor is Lexus is cancelling the GS all together, sedans are becoming a tough market if you aren't on your A game.  And cars like the CTS and GS only sell in a few countries, they don't have huge global volume, and all these car makers look at global numbers.  I'd imagine Acura RLX will be dead within a year, and they will never have more than 2 sedans in the future.

I don't see much change at all coming to the standards.  Consumers still want better fuel economy.  And large cars don't sell, even midsize cars like Camry and Accord are getting replaced by RAV4's and CRV's that get about the same mileage.  So as people tend to downsize, it helps get the average up.

The other thing to consider is not just CA CARB, but China.  China has displacement taxes and are putting in tougher emissions regulations and all these car makers are global.  GM or Ford or Toyota isn't going to make an engine for the USA, an engine for Europe and an engine for China.  It is cheaper to just make the same 1.5 liter turbo 4 that sips gas and meets emission requirements in all 3 markets.

And lastly when you get more electrification in, then fuel economy soars.  Look at a 90s cell phone battery compared to now.  In 20 years (granted well past 2025) a car like a Tesla Model S might go 800 miles on a single charge and cost $50,000.  Just think of this, in 2005 YouTube and smart phones didn't exist.  In another 10 years time, there may be electrified cars that we can't even think of now.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This segment doesn't care about 0-60 times. The top 3 players are V6 fwd based cars. Adding a 400 HP variant would increase sales of each by a fraction of a percent. It's just not worth it.

At the XT4 level yes, they don't care what the drive wheels are.  But at $50,000+ they do, the #1 selling SUV over $50k is the GLE, #2 is the X5.  And I think it only a matter of time, the GLC and X3 outsell both Lincoln SUVs, they are closing in on the Acuras.  Acura averaged 123 sales per month on the RLX last year, they have no sedan business anymore, luxury buyers don't want dressed up Accords, in time they won't want dressed up Pilots either.  Once people start driving the F-Pace or the Stelvio, along with the Germans I don't think they'll want an Acura or Lincoln.

Acura's whole line is less than mediocre.  I'd say the RDX is actually less competitive in it's class than the MDX is in it's class, at least based on looks, roominess and interior.  The RDX does still have a V6 in a world of 4 cylinder competition, but that just makes the RDX thirstier too.  

The MKX my be fantastic compared to a Acura or XT5, but compare the MKX to a Macan, Alfa Stelvio or a GLC43  or F-Pace.  The over weight body and 6-speed on the MKX ecoboost holds 0-60 time at 6.0 seconds for AWD, 6.9 for FWD.  A GLC43 does it in 4.5 seconds.  

3 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Absolutely. But the Cadillac brand really should have nothing over at Lincoln that beats it at anything other than price. and here's the thing.. CADILLAC HAD TOOLS IN THE BIN THAT COULD ABSOLUTELY KICKS ITS ASS. Seriously.. there is zero reason I can think of that Cadillac doesn't have an XT5-Vsport.. 

XT5 should be 2.0L Turbo Base 272/295lb   3.0L Turbo 360HP VSport and yup... 3.6L Turbo 450HP+VSeries  Hell it should pretty much mimic the ATS

 

Agree, Lincoln has nothing except an ever changing grille and design language and discounts.

XT5 should have been built on the Alpha chassis too, likewise with XT4.  That's what crazy, the thing Cadillac gets the most positive press for is their chassis work on Alpha and Omega, and it isn't on a crossover, the #1 selling body style and only growth segment in the auto industry right now.  Wasted opportunity.

Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

Why is that sad?  The MKX is an excellent vehicle. I'd put it above the MDX and RX, particularly in top trim. 

It's a Ford Edge.  The sad part is Cadillac losing in performance to anything Lincoln makes.  But Lincoln recently has been increasing sales while Cadillac is losing sales.  

55 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Its their (BMW/BENZ) formula and for all the hate we put on them they still sell decently for those companies. I personally don't want to see anything from Cadillac but VSeries and Platinums, but I kno that it is unrealistic if I want the brand to survive.. especially in this "cut if not profitable mode." $54K-55K ATPs are only obtainable if customers come on the lot.. so they can be up-sold into something better than the BS price that was advertised. Bottom line is that it is simply good business for GM to look at Cadillac and the rest the same way that Alfred Sloan did.. as autonomous businesses that are un-linked in survival even if under the skin they are.. of course back then even that last part didn't apply.. as a Cadillac didn't share even an engine with a Buick which didn't share one with a Chevy.. or it a Pontiac.. or an Olds. And they ruled automodom.

I say this to people who say Cadillac doesn't need "this.. or that.. because they have Buick.. or Chevy.." I say eff that. Cadillac needs to be a full line division even if they charge $20K more than the same SIZED Chevy. Let me be clear.. I do not want to see a Cadillac SPARK.. or a Cadillac TRAX. Hell I didn't even want to see a Cadillac Volt.. but that happened. What I do want to see is:

The ATS(CT3) in its current configs, but also fleshed out to have a wagon, a coupe, Vert, a hybrid.. and yes.. a tall wagon. Yup.. a RWD/AWD ATS that sits an extra 2 inches off the ground. Call it CTx3. 

The CTS(CT5) in its current configs, but also fleshed out to have a wagon, a coupe, Vert, a hybrid.. no need for a tall wagon. Because we already have the XT5

The CT6 in its current configs, but also fleshed out to have a wagon, a coupe, Vert, a hybrid (check).. and yes.. a tall wagon. Yup.. a RWD/AWD CT6 that sits an extra 2 inches off the ground. Call it XT6.

OK OK.. the names and marketing need some work.. but U get the point.

I don't give a EFF...what some think on this. I'm talking about survival... and upward mobility in vehicles that people want and are clamoring for. All this and the Cadillac brand still wouldn't have anything under $33K. Nothing... Nada.

U see U get those 5K ATS sales by offering more than just a damn sedan and a coupe that U haven't given a commercial spot since 2013. U get those 5K CTS sales that U used to get.. with an extra $10K tacked on by not having a similar priced, but larger, thus THOUGHT TO BE more upscale, XTS sitting right next to it.. cheaper in fact... AND offering a car that USED to offer in a coupe and a wagon.. and enjoyed very nice sales.. in a GOD DAMNED Coupe and a Wagon. 

I agree with the full line idea and who cares what Buick or GMC have, Cadillac should be thought of as the profit machine and get anything they want.  They should have the best crossovers, convertibles, sports cars, etc.  I would hold off on the wagons though, I don't think they'd sell.

And agreed that XT5 is more of a chic car (all the more reason to offer a man's crossover though) and a 390 hp turbo V6 would be plenty of power for that chassis, it beats what Lexus and Acura have and (I never thought I'd say this) it matches the Lincoln MKX ecoboost.  Right now the MKX out muscles them, which is sort of sad.

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I hate that vehicle so f'n much it's irrational. The stupid fkn "coupe" CUVs are the worst thing that's happened to the auto industry since.. since.. since something bad happened. lol

They're ugly, they're useless, they just don't make any got damn sense!

4 worst vehicles on the road today are the GLC Coupe, GLE Coupe, X4 and X6.

And yet Audi is adding 2 crossover coupes, Land Rover has that Range Rover coupe thing based on the F-pace.  They are building what sells.  I don't like crossovers in general, I would never buy one, but it is what the market wants, and they charge like $8k more for a GLE coupe than they do a regular GLE and it probably costs $1,000 extra to make it.  Easy money.

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

US - by whoring out their name on FWD cars shared with Nissan, and chasing cheap leases. 

EU - not if you remove the Crown Vic spec livery market

Who sold more FWD cars in the US last year, Mercedes or Cadillac?

20 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Your just moving the goal post again to try and justify that MB is no different than Chevy, Ford, Toyota or VW. They are no longer a luxury only auto builder. They have expanded their brand to cover everything and eventually that will change their badge image in the public's eye. 

Cadillac is rebuilding itself as a luxury builder and is looking at select profitable models over being in everything at every level.

Two different approaches to market segments.

And yet M-B is #1 in US market luxury sales, #1 in European market luxury sales, #2 in China market luxury sales and 3 time defending champion in Formula 1.  While posting record profits the past few years.

On the Cadillac front, I agree a sub-ATS car is a waste of time, they need crossovers.  That is what sells.

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

Jeep "is supposed to be" about 'total off-road capability', but I don't see them capitalizing on that with the Compass & Renegade, which absolutely aren't.  Orrrrr : maybe a brand can be more than a singular directive (like uber-lux sedans / cheaply-built cargo boxes under the same badge). It's the nature of the industry, I am surprised you are oblivious to it.

[[ Hey- how come you don't bash the Jaguar f-pace, which starts only $1500 higher than the XT5, for "not going head-to-head with the Germans"?? Does that put the f-pace into your 'Group A' by default? Or in this example, is price no longer a factor?]]

The 75% soccer mom buyers of SUVs from BMW, et al, don't have any earthly idea what sort of platform is under there; they're not bought for performance or handling or road manners or anything beyond the badge & creature comforts. I GUARANTEE you if BMW suddenly changed the X5 to FWD/AWD (AWD: the VAST majority of ALL these mentioned are- "it's a growth segment!"), sales wouldn't fall any faster than they have been over the last 2 years.

Cadillac does not conform to your definition of it, and never will. The brand is luxury, it is performance, it is many other things, not necessarily everyone of them at the same time. Just like the E300 can't outrun a Camry V6 to 60. The performance aspect is not necessarily just a screaming 0-60 -these cars aren't put into competition-, but it means general excellent performance.  Cadillac is sorry if you got the impression that meant drag racing; they're sending a card. 

The F-pace is a GLC, X3, Macan (soon to be Stelvio) competitor.  F-Pace is based on the XE small sedan.  

And yes an E300 is slower than a V6 Camry, but they offer more powerful engines.  M-B offers AMG engines on every model line, Cadillac can't do a V-series on their Utilities because their platforms couldn't handle the power.  I can't see how Cadillac fans are happy that the CTS-V engine isn't on an XT5, when the Europeans all have big power.

I see it this way, Group A has decided to build crossovers on FWD mass market platforms, this includes Cadillac, Acura, Lexus and Lincoln (and about half the Infiniti and Audi crossovers)

Group B thinks performance matters and uses a more purpose built chassis, boosted engines, etc.  This includes Alfa Romeo, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar/Land Rover, Bentley, Porsche, Maserati.

Would you want to be in group A or Group B?

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Doesn't matter what the X3/5 are priced at, this isn't a BMW.

So many internet armchair jockeys have wailed & knashed their teeth that Cadillac is "copying" (lol) the other brands..., that "Cadillac should be Cadillac" with no Earthly idea whatsoever what that may mean- but when Cadillac steps outside the tight, arbitrarily-defined ranges by the critics, suddenly the Cadillac "doesn't compete".  Bull$h!. 

This is the product Cadillac has built & priced it where it is.  Where does it rank on your always critical sales chart?

Cadillac does NOT want to compete in every segment, and they are NOT looking to challenge the mainstream luxury brands in volume.  
Write that on a piece of tape, stick it to your screen, read it once in a while; it'll help your comprehension.

But Cadillac comes up with a product like Escalade, that defines their brand and is their most profitable product, and you don't really see a smaller version of it to capitalize on what Cadillac is.  Not that I want them to make 6 versions of Escalade like there are 5 or 6 "Range Rovers" now, but I don't see a lot of Escalade influence in other Cadilacs, other than vertical lights, which every Cadillac has, and had since like 2003.   Jeep does this well, Compass is a mini Grand Cherokee, Renegade is heavily influenced by Wrangler, because those are the iconic designs, and they get those designs to people at a lower price point. 

Cadillac is supposed to be performance luxury, but the performance is limited to 2 models, when they have 6 models.  6 model lines isn't enough as it is, 2 performance lines surely isn't enough.  People want horsepower and performance, and people now want crossovers a lot more than they want sedans, yet Cadillac hasn't combined the 2 yet, when Porsche, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Bentley, Jaguar, Land Rover all have, and probably soon Aston Martin and Lamborghini will join them.  Huge missed opportunity by not having performance in the crossover space, just like the V-series sedans (and rwd sedans in general) arrived 15 years too late after the M3 and M5 already set the segment.

In 10 years time we will look back on Cadillacs crossovers of the 2010-2020 era as lackluster product that let them fall behind, just as we now look back at the 90s FWD Seville and Deville that failed to get it done and let the Germans take over.  20 years later Cadillac makes the exact same mistake, but with a different body style.

Alfa has a worse reputation than Cadillac, but a better product than Cadillac.  So that gives them a chance.  Something that can work in Alfa Romeo's favor is the majority of people under 30-35 don't really even know what Alfa Romeo is or much about their history.  They haven't been here in 20 years, if you are 30 now, you were 10 the last time they sold a new car here.  To younger buyers they don't have baggage like Cadillac or Lincoln might have.  The other question though is can 30 year olds afford Alfa Romeo pricing?  If Alfa has to rely on older buyers that remember what they were in the 80s, they have a big hill to climb.

If VW were to buy Alfa they would want that Georgio platform.  Every magazine ranks the Guilia over the M3 and C63, and you don't even see the A4 anywhere near those comparisons because it isn't competitive.  

But the XT5 is priced like an X3.  If the XT5 was priced like the CT6 was $55-90k, it would have no sales.    XT4 will probably cannibalize a lot of XT5 sales.  Lexus RX crushes all these luxury crossovers in sales, but it is cheap, so that's why.

Now Sergio says he has no interest in merger, haha.  That guys is nuts.

The Gergio platform would have value to them, they could use it to make a mid size Dodge Charger and perhaps a Dodge crossover, bring the Pacifica to Dodge and it pumps some life into that brand and gets them US market sales that VW brand doesn't get.

VW loves luxury brands, maybe they can see Alfa and Audi co-existing, I don't think they have any use for Maserati, Porsche, Bentley Lambo etc are better than them.

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

Let Lexus continue in their Buick, Lincoln, Acura battle for mid luxury level auto's. 

Cadillac should stay focused on defining themselves as an upper level Luxury line. No need to go below the ATS / CT3 and XT4.

Should, but won't.  That is why a CT6 is priced like a 5-series and the XT5 starts $15k lower than an X5.  Cadillac doesn't want to go up there and get in a head to head battle with the Germans.

I don't see how you let a test car out with something broken on it.  You want the press cars in tip top shape.  This is the battle they will have to fight, even if it drives great, people will wonder if it will break all the time and would they just be safer buying a German car.  You can't afford to have customers feel like they are gambling when buying your product.

Listening to, and actually considering a merger are 2 different things.  Of course it is worth listening, but they may have zero interest in FCA.  I think Jeep gives VW interest, they'd probably want that brand and some more of the US market.