smk4565

Color me skeptical if I don't take the head of Daimler on his word. That is just PR speak for "we really don't know how to make money on EVs". It doesn't mean that there isn't a way.

I am sure there is a way, but Mercedes is not making profit on EVs, Tesla has never turned a profit.  I would guess Nissan isn't making profit on the Leaf, and GM isn't making money on the Volt. Eventually EV's will be profitable, probably none are right now

i think they could charge for Supercharger use on every car, and probably eventually they will.  Gas stations aren't giving away unlimited free gas, if it costs $5 at the Supercharger station to fill up no big deal.  And you can charge at home.

I am glad to see the 8-series return, I thought that was one of the best BMWs ever, I liked the 90s 8-series, I hope they make the new car similar to that.

The 6-series should be a 5-series coupe/converable that is $55k, not whatever the hell it is now.  A 6-series Gran Coupe (which s 5-series based) is more expensive than a 7-series.  That makes no sense.  If they think they can make a 6-series compete with a 911 they are delirious.  The 6-series should compete with E-class coupe/convertible, and be like 190 inches long, so for those that think a 435i coupe is too small, they can get a 635i for $5,000-10,000 more.

I think 3 sedans is enough for Cadillac, you can add a coupe or convertible body style to any of those 3 lines.  Sedans are a striking segment, crossovers are the growth, so it would make sense to have 4-5 CUV/SUV and only 3 sedans.

Dieter Zetsche has said electric cars are not profitable, they are losing money on their electric cars. I am sure they would rather sell a GLC that makes money rather than a B-class that doesn't.

For whatever it is worth the B-class range is going to be increased to 200-250 miles in the next few years.

ATS down 30.7%, CTS down 39.6%, XTS down 29.3%

That is why I said Cadillac needs 3 more crossovers.   CTS is on pace for 14,000 sales this year, that is worse than the STS did and they killed the STS.

LaCrosse down 57.3%, Impala down 54.4%.  Full size sedans are really hurting, that whole segment could disappear in about 5 years time.  Chevy should make Impala their Camry fighter and Malibu should become a Civic/Corolla fighter, Cruze would replace both Spark and Sonic as a compact car.  At least that way they get to preserve the Impala name plate.

People can see a difference in the style of the current Mustang over the previous.  A lot of ppl are complaining about the barely evolutionary styling of the Camaro.  Love the look of the car, but I can see their point... why trade for one if it looks so similar to the old?

Agreed and the Camaro is really hard to see out of and rather cramped on the inside.   The Mustang feels more usable and easier to see out of to me.  Plus it is a coupe, coupes don't sell in volume, especially when the price keeps going up.

That B-class EV probably loses money, so they probably prefer that it doesn't sell.

A new E-class could sell 5-6,000 a month that reverses that, and the C-class coupe is hitting dealers, maybe that helps there.  I do think they need to sell an S450 with a $87,000 price to steal some of the sales off the 7-series and A8.    It is tough to sell sedans anymore though, people want crossovers.

They only sell the B-class in California because state law says they have to sell an electric car.

They need to new E-class to turn around sedan sales. Good thing they have 5 crossovers/SUVs to capitalize on consumer preferences.

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead.  I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick.  CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

There you go, cherry picking as usual. The Verano is not "CLA sized". That would be the $27K Regal you would be thinking of, the same one that beat that CLA. Funny how you keep forgetting that. Again, according to a few publications, the CLA most certainly does compete with the Buick. It just doesn't beat it in a comparo. You know that already but are too damn fanboy blind and stubborn to acknowledge that simple little fact.

Go look up the length, width, height and weight of a CLA and compare that to a Verano.

Regal still isn't selling even though it finished ahead of a CLA in one comparison.

The E63 S does 0-60 in 3.4 seconds, an 11.6 second 1/4 mile at 121.8 mph.   Stops form 60 mph in 106 feet, which is 6 better than a CTS-V.

CTS-V does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds and 11.6 seconds 1/4 mile at 126 mph, so it would pull ahead after the 1/4 mile with the higher speed.

A Tesla Model S can do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds and a 11.2 second 1/4 mile.

The current E-class is in its 7th model year too, so I am curious to see what they do with the new one.  I don't think it will be faster, but it should handle better as the current car is overly heavy.

Well, we know now that that performance EVs can deliver on being quick? Can they deliver on being fast though? And as consistently as ICE powered cars? That'll be a big hurdle, and I don't see how Mercedes can solve that on its own.

Hard to find a place where you can drive above 150 mph.  I'd rather have a car that is quick at speeds under 75 mph that is more usable, top end speed you can't even use on a race track, unless there is like a 2 mile straight away.

It's not faster, they're the same : 0-60 in 3.4-3.5.

Unfortunately, the E63 is governed to 186 MPH (or is it 155??) whereas the CTS-V does 200.

 

 

Bizarrely, MB made the E63 faster than the SLS AMG! Who unseats their own halo performance car; "makes no sense".

186 mph on an E63 S.

The AMG GT is faster than an E63, and they have a 570 hp R version coming that would be faster still.  I am still hoping Mercedes makes a sports car above the GT that is a rival to Lamborghini and Ferrari.  Tobias Moers seems to want one, and it would be a mid-engine V6 hybrid like the Formula 1 car.

The McLaren Mercedes SLR could do like 212 mph and that car came out 10 years ago.  They need something today that hits that level, I think 193 is their fastest today.

• But no one buys a $90K Model S to drag race a Corvette- that's not the motivation at all. And there's a lot more to ANY vehicle sale than 0-60 times.

 

• Tho I couldn't find this 3-way test (Model S/ Hellcat/ CTS-V) online, obviously the CTS-V ALSO ran away from the Model S, since it likewise has a 200 MPH top speed vs. the S's 155.

 

• If for ONE SECOND you think Tesla is going to drop the price of the Model S P90D LM from $118K down to $55K to sit right on top of the Model 3 in price, you're nuts.

The CTS-V never caught the Model S in the 3 way race, the runway wasn't long enough.  

I did find videos of the Model S blowing away the E63 and Nissan GT-R as well.    This is why Mercedes knows they need an electric car, the E63 was beat and how much faster can they make it with a V8?  They know part of the AMG equation after 2020 is electric power, whether is is pure EV or a hybrid.

I don't think the P90D will get cut in half any time soon, but in 10 years maybe a Model S P85 that can do 0-60 in 3.5 is $60k.  Maybe not, but batteries will get cheaper, gasoline engines are getting more expensive.  

I've said it before...Buick needs to become the American Audi.  FWD based but with AWD available on everything. German premium feelings, but without the pretension of Mercedes and Cadillac. 

What is wrong with being the American Buick?  Why do they have to be Audi?  Oldsmobile was American, didn't try to copy imports, they had the contemporary stealth bomber theme styling, but they gave you a little more performance than a Chevy, a little better ride and handling.  That was a good formula, even though that brand is dead.  

People buy crossovers in droves for roominess, they like comfort, a smooth ride, some interior space, they like the safety of all wheel drive (or perceived safety).

Tesla is flat out awesome.  They are my 2nd favorite car brand. 

The current E63 is actually quicker than the 640 hp CTS-V.  I am looking forward to the new E63 to see what they can get it to do. Motor Trend picked the E63 over the M5, but M5 is also fat. 

Tesla P90 D vs Corvette Z06, both stock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgZJg6Mu0cU

The Z06 is a really fast car too, a 0-60 time in the low 3's.  

 

 

 

Eventually though electric will overtake gas cars, just like self driving cars will become common.

Won't happen in our lifetimes.

 

Sure it will.  Take a car like the Corvette Z06, fastest car….

Were you referencing SALES as usual, or just performance?

Excuse me if I erroneously assumed it was your Prime Directive : SALES.

 

We've had 15+ years of hybrids and they're still only 3% of vehicle sales. Pure electrics are behind hybrids, and while it's possible they will surpass them, they have monstrous uphill public perception battle to gain 51% of vehicle sales. 

 

0-60 time, a Tesla Model S will beat a Corvette Z06.  The Tesla Model X crossover can beat a CTS-V or Charger Hellcat in a 1/4 mile.  11.7 second 1/4 mile in a 7 passenger SUV.  That is what electric can do.  

Top Gear USA did a drag race of a Model S, Hellcat and CTS-V, for the 1/4 mile the supercharged V8s were flat out embarrassed, only after the Tesla hit its top speed of 150 mph did the Hellcat eventually pass it because on the mile runway it got to 170 mph.

*Quicker....not faster as of yet. Besides, even though there are some rare stories of the Z06 going into limp mode....the Tesla will ALWAYS go into limp mode on a track.

 

When the EV incentives go away, a much harder battle between ICE and BEV will be fought. Agree with Balth, though I see a point where both cars become very substitutable.

 

There will be a lot of redundancy.Maybe gas stations will also be the charging stations?

What happens when batteries get cheap?  And a Tesla Model S that does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds costs about $55,000, and you could have that or turbo 4 CTS, 5-series, E-class, etc for the same price.   Time will tell, but I think electric will progress quickly and rapidly, and the gas engine won't be able to keep up.

I would guess that Mercedes will up the ante a bit on the next-generation CLA and GLA.  But these cars aren't what the brand is built on, they need a lower cost model and a higher MPG model for compliance reasons.  They sell just about as many $100,000 S-class as they do $33,000 CLA.   Yes Mercedes competes in the $30k range, but no American or Japanese luxury brand is competing in the $100,000+ segment.  Where are they at?  I'd love to see some go after the high end Mercedes, but we all know they can't and won't.

 

 

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

The CTS once started at $29,900. CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today. And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment. Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

We are not talking about a 13 year old CTS. We are talking about a $29K Mercedes sold two years ago that is the EXACT same car as the one they are asking more money for now so don't try to come off like they are not trying to compete with Buick and Lincoln with cars like that and then backpedal and say $h! like you just said in your last post.

So at least you have finally confirmed what you have long denied. The CLA is a Buick/Lincoln competitor so you said they are trying to compete in the lower end market now.

 

Except Lincoln's smallest sedan is larger than an E-class, and Buick's CLA sized sedan was $21,000, and is now dead.  I would doubt the CLA and LaCrosse are cross shopped at all, so I don't think the CLA competes with Lincoln or Buick.  CLA is here to compete with Golf GTI's, A3's. 1/2-series, Volvo V40, maybe S60, Acura TLX maybe.

What is wrong with being a nicer Chevy?  Buick only needs to sell Chevy Equinox or Malibu level performance, with some extra leather and wood on the inside, and more sound deadening and a soft ride.  If they want the Regal to succeed, it needs to have a base price around $25k, and fully loaded hit $35k.   It also needs all wheel drive optional, since the Malibu doesn't offer it.  That makes the Regal priced like an Encore, but with 197 hp 2.5 liter and more interior room.  Or a 1.6 liter turbo could be used instead.

That's just dumb, and FUD, and more dumb as well.

 

Opel is on the rise, they're coming back to solvency, and they create wonderful cars, and are under-appreciated for the amount of engineering work they have contributed to GM. There are brands/cars that you hope would be shuttered for good - Fiat, Mitsu...some cheap Mercedes cars/suvs...anything coupe crosssover. Opel isn't one of them.

 

I think the reason is that Buick wants their cars to be more premium, and actually space wise the Regal and Verano were pretty close, because the Regal is a smaller car than the Malibu.

 

The Regal is coming back, with vengeance I might add, and given how GM is going, I think we can expect it to punch way above its weight for the price. 

 

Maybe the strategic decision is that sedans are still prevalent, but they're not the de facto anymore,even for smaller economy cars. If someone wants a Buick sedan - why not let it be one that can be optioned far higher, and have better, more powerful engine options, and be more consistent with the brand moving premium? A lot of Lax's are fully loaded, Buick can be the mainstream vehicle based luxury brand of GM, Cadillac can go straight after the upper tier RWD cars...because there RWD matters, and otherwise milk crossovers because people just want the utility above all else, and the Escalade can be milked because it's based loosely off a very mass-market BOF truck. 

Regal can come back with a vengeance, but no one will buy it.   This is why Hyundai Azera and Chrysler 200 are on the chopping block, the sedan market is just too tough, and if you aren't a volume car like Camry or Accord it is hard to stick around.  Making the Regal more luxurious and more powerful isn't going to help sales, it will hurt sales.  To a majority of buyers, buying a crossover is moving up market and the sedan is the value product.

Cadillac also has no rear drive crossovers, which makes it hard for Cadillac to move their crossovers up market.  They can't increase the price on Cadillac sedans that aren't selling, so they are stuck with Cadillac where they are.

 

Wrong again.

image.jpeg.

Oh and let's not forget this, V8 and all

image.jpeg

RAM and Nissan both have vans that size as well.

Funny how you only try to single out the small vans to prove whatever point it is that you are trying to prove.

Anything else you want to be proven wrong on today SMK?

 

I think he meant the Transit Connect and ProMaster City since he said "smaller" Transits and Promaster.  And the Nissan NV200/City Express is very small too, only 186 inches long.  The Metris is 202 inches long, same as a Honda Odyssey.     The larger Transit and Pro Master or the GMC Savanna/Chevy Express would be Sprinter size class.  

 

Wrong answer. The CLA started at $29K (please reference original ad), making it a Buick competitor. Debate and sugarcoat that all you want but that is the truth. Clearly Mercedes wants to play in the lower end market.

Oh and if you don't understand why some of those particular vehicles were not released, being that they were still coming out of bankruptcy at the time, then you are as clueless as ever.

 

The CTS once started at $29,900.    CLA with destination is now $33k, what it was in the past doesn't really matter today.  And yes they do want to play in the low end of the luxury market because they want to win in every segment.  Just like they won the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday, and the AMG GT3 had a historic victory 1-2-3-4 finish at the 24 hours of the Nurburgring over the weekend, leaving BMW, Audi, Bentley and Porsche in the dust.

I never understood why exactly Mercedes commercial vehicles are purchased by anyone/business. Sure enough, just when I think commercial operators or businesses have turned down the Mercedes van/truck, sure enough I see one or two or three around.

Because they run forever.  Try to find a used Sprinter, even with 200,000 miles you'll still pay $20,000 or more for it.  And the diesel mileage is much better than you'd get on an Express or Savana, or the old Econolines, the new Transit diesel is probably pretty good.