smk4565

Well then Cadillac should just kill off the XT6 and Buick should kill the Enclave if 3-row vehicles are not wanted.

I am not contradicting any prior statement. Balthazar said Lyriq was full size because it had a wheelbase as big as an Escalade, and my point then was the Lyriq isn't a 3-row like the Escalade or other full size SUVs. And then I said Cadillac will eventually make a 3-row electric SUV. Lyriq is a mid-size SUV, a big mid-sizer but still mid-size and it doesn't need a 3rd row. I never said it did, I just said that Cadillac will eventually make a 3-row electric SUV. And if there was no 3rd row demand, then the VW Atlas, Subaru Ascent, Jeep Grand Cherokee XL, Wagoneer, Grand Wagoneer, Telluride and Pallisade all wouldn't exists. Subaru, VW, Jeep, Hyundai and Kia didn't really have 3 row SUVs 5-10 years ago outside of some tiny 3rd rows put into a Santa Fe or that Kia Borrego, but clearly dealers were demanding them. GM has sold millions of Traverse/Acadia/Enclave over the past 10 years, if there was no 3-row demand they would just have sold Equinoxes and Terrains and not needed anything else. Most car buyers over buy, even if they will only use that 3rd row 1 time per year when in-laws visit, people will spend the $10k extra for an Enclave over an Envision or for a Pilot over a CRV and car companies know it and will take advantage of it.

The Lyriq should not have a 3rd row with that design, but I think Cadillac will make a 3-row electric SUV within 3 years of Lyriq going on sale. My data for 3rd row demand comes from the 30+ 3-row SUVs I posted earlier. And Jeep has three 3-row SUVs going on sale within the next year. If there was no 3rd row demand, Jeep wouldn't have invested money on 3 of them, and the XT6 wouldn't exist because it is basically a 3-row XT5, same chassis, same engine, etc.

Honda and Acura are each getting SUVs based on the Lyric also.

I suspect there will be a smaller SUV off same platform for Cadillac, 2 off this platform for GMC, plus the Hummer, and 2 for Chevy to go with the Bolt and perhaps 3 electric SUV for Buick due to China. I could see GM getting 8 more SUV’s out of this platform easily. Plus they’d be fools to not do a Cadillac version of the Hummer for like $150k starting and a $200k V-series.

Lyriq is sized and priced similar to an XT6, similar horsepower but pulling Escalade weight, and rear drive only for now. So question is how well will this sell? No 3rd row either which XT6 has and the XT6 isn’t really a hot seller. I do like that Cadillac is starting with the base model and going up later on. Rather than pull a Tesla and say Model 3 will start at $35k, but then only sell $60k dual motor models for 2 years before ever offering the base model they promised.

I imagine that S-class will go all electric on the next generation in 2028 and EQS will be absorbed into it. Daimler has said they will be carbon neutral by 2039, I can't imagine them going into the 2030s with a gas burning S-class, they will want it to be EV to be the innovation leader of the brand. They have to build dual lines now because there are too many people that won't buy an EV, but regulations force car companies to make EV's and Mercedes wants to convert to all EV by 2039, but you can't just do it overnight, you have to go slow at it to get that EV take rate up. And really the car companies that will be in good shape in the 2030s are the ones that can fund the dual lines now, because if you just stick with gas now, and the market goes 50% EV in 2030, you don't have any sales. This could really hurt companies like Mazda and Nissan for example. Just like companies that were slow to make SUVs got hurt by the changeover from sedan to SUV and had to scramble to catch up. And large product line has always been a Mercedes/Audi/BMW strength, by offering all that choice they don't lose customers when trends shift.

Calling the Model S an EQS competitor is like saying the CT5 is an S-class competitor. Sure all of them are sedans, but the EQS is a full size class bigger than the Model S, it is bigger than a Lexus LS500, bigger than a CT6, bigger than a 7-series. A Model S is roughly CLS size, even the AMG GT 4-door is bigger than a Model S, a Model 3 is roughly C-class size, and you can't compare any Tesla interior to a Mercedes. Also no one knows how long the EQE is, if it is E-class size which you'd think, and priced in the $70-130k range (roughly $10k more than an e-class) then it would line up directly in size and price against the Model S. Also we have seen the base EQS, (rumor that a 90 kWh battery might follow later) and suspicion is that it will be over $100k. A base 6-cylinder rear drive S-class is $109k for 2022, hard to believe EQS is cheaper than that and the $200k AMG and Maybach are coming later. This isn't like Lucid showing the $150k Air top of the line and then working backwards to a $80k version in 2 years, and Hummer is doing the same starting with the top model. EQS is starting with the cheapest model and going up.

Daimler just posted a $5.6 billion profit for the first quarter, profit margin is highest it has been in 14 years. Mercedes set a record in 2020 for China market sales at 640,738 units and are on pace for 696,000 this year, 2 of their 3 all time best sales months in China happened in 2021. The S-class isn't going anywhere, it is still a big profit source, and sedans in general are dying, and Mercedes has the G-wagen and Maybach GLS for high dollar SUV sales, they aren't losing customers, they are just changing which product they buy.

The EQS is a foot longer than a Tesla Model S, also the interiors and luxury features aren't even close. Price isn't that close either, EQS is probably going to be $30k-40k more base and the AMG/Maybach will probably be $40-50k more than a Model S Plaid. The EQE will be sized and priced like a Model S. Cadillac may not do an electric sedan, but they said they are building the Celestiq as a full size sedan. I don't think they really have to make a sedan, they could make Cadillac all SUVs, just like Buick is all SUVs and Chevy is on their way to being all SUVs and the Corvette. Personally, I don't like SUVs, I would never buy an SUV, but that is all manufacturers seem to be putting out and they are killing off sedans, coupes and convertibles left and right.

If there was going to be a 3-row Lyriq it would be there at launch. I would be $1000 to a donut that a 3-row electric Cadillac will come later so they can up sell consumers to a higher price point. Until the Celestiq arrives, Cadillac had no EQS competitor, nor does Tesla and we don’t know what the Celestiq is yet.

Doesn’t matter how much 3rd row seats get used, consumers demand them. Consumers don’t need 400 mile EV range which with 1 charge per day equates to 146,000 miles per year but they want it and pay for it anyway.

And yet a lot of Tahoe/Yukon/Suburban/Escalade, Expedition/Navigator, Telluride, Palisade, Ascent, Traverse, Enclave, XT6, Acadia, GLE, GLS, X5, X7, Q7, LX570, QX80, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, Armada, Atlas, Explorer, Model X, Range Rover, Highlander, Pilot, MDX, GLB, Sienna, Odyssey, Pacifica, Carnival, get sold every year. And Jeep sees more room for 3-rows and has Grand Cherokee, Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer coming. Seems like there is demand for 3-rows, that group must make up 2-3 million units a year and with high margins.

The Lyriq has roughly the same length as a GLE or XT6, but no 3rd row. Mercedes will have a Lyriq size competitor and something bigger. Although like I said, I imagine Cadillac has bigger and smaller BEV’s coming. Wheelbase is also not a good comparison for size as the Lyriq has a longer wheelbase than an Escalade and no one would call the Lyriq bigger than an Escalade.

Lyriq doesn’t have a 3rd row. They need an Escalade sized electric suv, although I am sure that is coming.

We will find out in September at the debut what the motor options are.

The EQS has been shown in production trim and specs released, it goes on sale late summer. Nothing need be assumed, we know what it is. The Lyriq has a smaller battery, weighs more and is less aerodynamic so it will have less range, but I think 300 miles is adequate. More range is just more battery to haul around. I could have a cell phone with a battery that lasts 2 weeks if I want it to weigh 7 pounds because it has a huge battery.

There are EQ GLE and GLS planned for 2023 model year on the EQS chassis. So they will have a Lyriq competitor at the same time and a full size electric SUV which no one has. They have electric GLA and GLB already released although those are ICE conversions mainly for Europe emissions regulations.

I forgot about the Model S claimed 520 mile range because the current car was like 409 miles. EQE assuming the same battery/motor as the EQS will have longer range since it will weigh less and will be faster too.

Really the EQE is the Model S competitor, the EQS is a much bigger car than the Model S and much more luxurious. There are also AMG and Maybach versions of EQS coming, it isn't like Mercedes is done. And EQE will get an AMG trim, so we'll see how that matches up against Tesla. Tesla will be hard to beat sales-wise, Mercedes will have to be on their A-game for years. Also as I said, range is over rated and will be more so over rated as charge times drop. No one buys a gasoline car and compares the range on a Camry to the range on a Sonata and picks the one with longer range. I am curious how it sells. And also how quickly people copy it. When Mercedes did the CLS in 2004, everyone wanted a 4-door coupe. BMW and Mercedes made SUV coupes and everyone said they are ugly, then a dozen manufacturers had coupe SUV's. Mercedes could make a car that looked like a shoe box and at least 5 other luxury brands would copy them.

It has the longest range of any EV, the best interior of any EV, biggest screen of any car. They got a lot right. Personally I am not a fan of the rounded off exterior styling, it doesn't have classic Mercedes proportions which I prefer.

Gen 1 CTS and the XLR are the 2 best looking Cadillacs of the past 20 years. GM design since Ed Welburn left has gone downhill. I think the Lyric is over styled in back, the front half looks fine, but a lot of car companies try to make EV’s look overly modern and that isn’t what sells and that is why a lot of EVs have had bad sales numbers.

It goes on sale this summer, so EQS is not vaporware. S-class doesn't look boring, especially in Maybach trim with the 2-tone paint. But they on purpose use a conservative design because it ages better than bold, outrageous designs that look dated really fast. If you look at Cadillac, the Gen 1 CTS has aged the best because it had the most simple design, it still looks better today than the Gen 2 or 3 CTS or something ungainly like the XTS. The downside to the EV revolution is weight, hopefully they can find a way to make these EV's lighter over time.

The largest battery in any current EV and the most aerodynamic production car ever. It will have the longest range, the WLTP cycle may be optimistic, but it it should still do 400 miles per charge easily. Although I think EV range is over rated, people aren't driving 300-400 miles per day 5-7 days a week, which would be 100,000 miles a year. 95% of people would be fine everyday with a 100 mile range.

I am not a fan of the EQS styling, too much tear drop in the name of aerodynamics. The S-class is a much better looking car, and a more expensive looking car, I think Mercedes should stick with their 3-box design look and sacrifice .03 cD in the name of styling. The EQS has an amazing interior though, and the range is the best there is, and their battery can do multiple acceleration runs without over heating, unlike Tesla. I am hoping EQE and the SUVs look better because the battery/motor combo is strong.