Croc

By the way, I have to commend everyone on here since we are getting into some pretty personal territory now...says a lot that we can discuss this without getting hot-headed or uncivil toward one another. Far cry from the days where LordStafford flipped out and we no longer allow political discussions in the Lounge as a result.

Isn't there also some passage about "It isn't what goes into a man that condemns him, but what comes out of it"? I seem to remember something along those lines...

Yea...and if wine were forbidden, why would Jesus turn water into wine?

I doubt it will. Remember the SRX?

@ Mustang: The "fire and brimstone" is more of a Protestant culture, particularly associated with Presbyterians (God I hope I spelled that right...). How valid is it? Well, depends on the congregation, but it seems from what I know to be more than just a groundless stereotype. My mother's side of the family was raised Presby and they all remember the "fire and brimstone." Other Presbys I've talked to say the same. It's just a different culture, I guess. Really, whatever works for you and motivates you to be a better person.

Irrelevant. The Papacy has not always been in Rome. Priests were originally allowed to marry, as were Popes. The ban on marriage was a result of children of these unions dividing church property as inheritance. It was just easier to ban marriage than to regulate inheritances (though marriage still continued for hundreds of years) Nothing in the Bible really supports organized religion. See, the Bible DOES support spreading the Good News, which is what the Priesthood does. Pastors and Ministers all do the same thing, and there has to be some way for each Church unit to accredit someone. Define mass. Churchgoing is indeed optional, though it is a great way to spread the Good News efficiently. The Bible does say to spread the News. Nothing in the Bible stipulates when it should be. Baptism is symbolic of entering the Christian community in any Christian sect. Infants are new members of the community, who grow up learning more and more about the Good News. They are still part of that community, though, and that is then why Confirmation exists later on, to CONFIRM that, yes, one wants to be a part of the Catholic community after learning about all of everything through the years. Not directly. Not directly. Doesn't change the fact that God chose Mary above all other women. Are you going to tell me that if God picked ONE woman out of all the women in the world to have Jesus...that she isn't special? Come on. Catholics do NOT put Mary up on a level next to God, the Holy Spirit, or Jesus. Not by far. Mary does indeed have a special relationship with God, though, as evidenced by the appearances of Gabriel as well as the entire fact that she carried Jesus in HER WOMB. Catholics just recognize her special relationship. The Hail Mary text is as follows:Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, And blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners Now and forever. Amen. I don't see where this is objectionable at all. Catholics saying this are asking Mary to pray for our salvation. She isn't being asked for Salvation, she is being asked to pray for us.

You are dead wrong, sir.

Jesus drank wine. So did all his followers.

Yeah, that's exactly it. San Jose is so beautiful.

Hmmm...what you're describing is NOT what I would call McMansions. I agree, those things are cheap looking and suck. I've always defined a McMansion as a very large house with a high quality of construction...like a mansion...that is stuck on a small (in comparison) lot and surrounded by similar type structures.

Yea, a lot of those are stupid, local superstitions and not supported by the Catholic Church in Rome. The middle two are I believe pre-Vatican II, but you aren't old enough for that (at least I don't think you are )If the eating meat on special days during Lent sends me to Hell, well then I reserved my spot a long time ago because I've refused to pander to the deception of a medieval Pope's solution to one year's Spring beef shortage due to a harsh winter (originally it was no meat during Lent, then just Friday's). I've staged this little personal protest since about, oh, the sixth grade. Heh, Rebel Catholic...

Don't b e jealous, you know you'd snap one right up if you could afford it just like all the rest of us would...

Could you further expound on this? I'm not quite sure to what you are referring...

Last time I checked it was no easier to "get away with" since God is the ultimate judge. Catholics just don't put a gun to your head and demand you do certain things "or you're going to Hell." I don't know what you mean by "so little is asked of you" I'm pretty sure that the same Bible (for the most part) is used and Jesus' teachings are just as demanding and impossibly difficult as in any other Christian faith.

I agree and disagree. I agree that not all the people who call themselves something actually live it to the best of their abilities, but being a Christian just means really that you believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Beyond that some Christians are undoubtably stronger-willed than others, but all Catholics, Protestants (Lutherans are Protestants...they are the original Protestants), etc are Christian...just whether they are "good" or "bad" Christians (I use those words for simplicity...I hate classifying people as "good" or "bad" Christians because it isn't my place and is really judgmental...and not my place).

Is that new? I never got that in all the years of Catholic indoctrination. I would like to see a passage from the Catechism stating this, if you don't mind. I draw a distinction with "human traditions" and "religious traditions." Baptism is a religious tradition. Any and all confirmation rituals, conversion rituals, etc are all religious tradition. OK...scripture isn't that specific. If it were, each sect wouldn't do Eucharist differently. For example: what kind of bread should be used? Leaven or unleaven? It varies. Grape juice or wine? Weekly or biweekly? Communal wine/grape juice cup or individual cups? Scripture just said what He did and that it happened before He died. It says nothing about how to go about doing it, just to do it "in rememberance."

Agreed. Catholics seem a LOT more grounded and down-to-earth. And I've run into a lot of people who always say that when they find out I was raised Catholic.

The Lucerne has the best exterior. But it is a vehicle of compromises, as you've noted. Have you looked at anything from Acura? They compete very well in the FWD near-lux segment and I was fairly impressed with them at LAIAS. Otherwise you're should prolly go with the Lucerne, though it really needs more upgrades and I too would go for the V8.

Neither. The Cover Girls or Exposé?

I like this quote. A lot.

Heh. They aren't vulgar. Most of them are kept hidden away by gated walls so as not to be too ostentatious.

Hey, don't knock McMansions. McMansions are cool. And no, I do not live in one.

Catholics are Christian! There is no "can be." It is just as Christian as (can even be argued more so than) Protestantism.Saints are not exclusive to Catholics. Methodists have them. Eastern Orthodox has them. As for Mary...well she had to be mighty special to be impregnated with God. Common misconception: they aren't treated as mediators to God. They are primarily used for inspiration, to "channel" some spiritual "essence" that they exemplified. They are used not as mediators but more of examples of human transcendence of the worldly for the spiritual. As far as lacking scripture, well yes. There is no scripture supporting a lot of Christian traditions. The traditions help build the spirituality and understanding of the faith in a way that builds bonds among members and is accessible to the population. Different Christian sects practice the Eucharist in very different ways. Why? No set scripture exists on the "correct" way to do it; all is interpreted. Also, no one HAS to pray to Mary or the Saints if they don't feel like it. I can't remember the last time I prayed to a Saint (have I ever? Who knows...). I do the Mary thing, but nothing (except Rosary) requires it (though Rosary is optional too). I think the main thing with Mary is that God decided she, out of all the women in the world, was pure and worthy of carrying the Jesus fetus, and therefore she was "special" and "blessed" (which is why we ignore Joseph; he wasn't directly involved).

Bob, have you looked into Eastorn Orthodoxy? I'm just now delving into it and for the most part it is extremely similar to Catholicism, except that it definitely addresses most of my concerns with Catholicism. Might wanna read a book on it, especially since Orthodoxy and Catholicism share such a rich history.

There seems to be a bit of confusion referring to the verse I referred to... It plainly says: It clearly is about how to pray, and how NOT to do it like the hypocrites (who do it in public). Also, back in Biblical times, a "church" was anytime 2 or more people gathered to talk about the Good News. I do that with my friends regularly. We can actually debate the Bible, unlike in a Church where a) the verse is read to you and b) you listen passively while the nice man tells you what to think regarding it. No. Learning comes through dialogue, and I second the poster who said Bible Study > Church. Anyone who continues to make judgements about me due to my refusal to go to weekly services can be reminded about planks and specks as well as knowing that they can keep their judgements to themselves. Wildman, your last quote really nails it. Once you understand that and actually make an effort to live it, everything else just falls naturally into place. I disagree, though, with your threat about paying the consequences. I think it's well established how merciful God is, so one cannot hand down that kind of threat with any authority or credibility. Croc, out.