Croc

Agreed.If someone wants a topic on homosexuality...go resurrect that one many-paged thread.

You don't put abused vehicles on an autoshow floor.

Yes, S-Series. That is officially what it means now. Just like CTS is C-Series Touring Sedan, not Catera, not Cadillac, but C-Series.

OK now that we've all agreed pedophilia is bad regardless of gender, orientation or denomination, let's get back to debating actual Christian issues. Seriously, the only way I would find this discussion relevant is if we were debating how the Catholic Church was handling the situation in accordance to Christian ideals, and we aren't exactly doing that soooooooo...

80s all the way...

That's a Cavalier/Sunfire.

That's sad. Things like this are why I am currently shopping around a little bit with Eastern Orthodoxy...

I'd say give it a dose of Valley Fever...

Firstly, of the Christians here (yes, Catholics are Christians), I see no rejection of the Bible.Secondly, warned of what? That there *might* be only one "correct" Christian sect and that there's a chance the ones we have chosen *might* not be it? Well, duh...everyone seems pretty well versed in the concept of odds. Personally, I find it a little bit insulting that you view yourself as "warning" us, like one warns errant children. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am accountable for my actions in this life, and to be honest, I regret very few of them as most of them have contributed to making me the person I am today. If God feels I am not living my life correctly, then it is His prerogative to do to me as He wishes. That said, you have no place whatsoever judging me as errant. Planks and specks. My faith is between God and me. You have done your Christian duty by sharng with us what you disagree with in our sects and why you feel your sect is closer to the truth. Fine. But I don't know where you come off with having the ability to speak to us of threats of moral condemnation; that right is reserved for God and God alone. I respect your different beliefs, and I am asking that you start showing a little more respect toward ours. This has generally been a very civil discussion, and I would like to keep it that way. Anyone who is unable to abide should excuse themselves from this thread.

Bingo. Actions speak louder than words, and you will convert far more people by setting an inspiring example than you will by quoting any amount of Scripture.It is far more noble to take the high road when everyone around you would go for the low blows than to talk about how Jesus would take the high road.

But that's just it...God doesn't operate on the level of time. Just like He knows what we are going to do in our lives He also will know about the marriage and whether it will last or not. Therefore the marriage "confirmation" is more of a human and church tradition than anything God actually needs...because it already exists if it is for real.

Sex before marriage: I believe that it can be permissable. If it is entirely consensual, it occurs as an act of love (i.e. not using someone) and both parties enter into it knowing this. I do not believe (for example) that one person can have sex with someone and it be wrong, yet have sex with that same someone a day later under the benefit of a marriage vow and suddenly it is moral. God operates outside of time. Time is a worldly commodity, and love is eternal. Eternity exists in both directions, so if one loves someone eternally, that love (and/or "Holy blessing") therefore existed before and after the marriage vow.

I see where you're coming from, but again...every sect commits its heresies. It's human, and as Christians forgiveness is very highly recommended. Now, I know I'm prolly coming across as Mr. Catholic, but I'm really not. At this point I'm trying to figure out which sect, Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy is closest to what I believe to be true. Of course, I still know way too much about Catholicism to not share it here :AH-HA_wink:

I don't get it either, but then again I don't understand how a lot of people operate. I just look at it all as "whatever makes you happy" and go ahead doing things and living life to the best of my ability. That's really all you can do.

Dude, that's not gelled, that's "shellacked." Just a little FYI...using a lot of gel and wearing your bangs over your forehead will make your pores hate you and turn your forehead into Bosnia c. 1992. I had to learn that the hard way, so just passing it on...

Not really. This topic just doesn't appeal to the same people. I think if the same players were involved, they'd exhibit a similar debate style.

I see what you mean. At the same time, I understand why it was done. Catholic literally means "universal" and it really is a very outreaching sect of Christianity. I mean with Halloween, that's probably the most blatant example of this. Again, it is a harmlessly fun festivity, and adjusting it to "scare the demons away" for All Saints' Day is ludicrous...but again harmless. It is IMO as religiously neutral as celebrating birthdays.As far as the pagan "Saints" didn't that get addressed with Vatican II? I know St. Christopher was decommissioned...so I assume the blatantly pagan ones would have been too? Also...I don't see the harm in using the same calendar date as an existing holiday because that keeps the celebrations more accessible. I mean, yea, there are some pagan traditions, but the gods aren't worshipped anymore, so I don't see the heresy. I mean almost all Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25th. That date was chosen because the Romans already had a holiday on that date and it made it easier to transition everyone when Constantine converted Rome.

Bob, don't take it personally. It's obvious he has never attended Catholic mass. I've most definitely attended many other sects' services, and I have been astounded at how similar they are in almost every way except one: length. C'mon, Bob, you know it's true! A good Catholic mass can get you in and out of there in a half hour, with most lasting 45 minutes and the long-winded priests taking up an hour or more. Any longer than that and the priest knows there will be 3 people left after Communion. :AH-HA_wink:

By the way, I have to commend everyone on here since we are getting into some pretty personal territory now...says a lot that we can discuss this without getting hot-headed or uncivil toward one another. Far cry from the days where LordStafford flipped out and we no longer allow political discussions in the Lounge as a result.

Isn't there also some passage about "It isn't what goes into a man that condemns him, but what comes out of it"? I seem to remember something along those lines...

Yea...and if wine were forbidden, why would Jesus turn water into wine?

I doubt it will. Remember the SRX?

@ Mustang: The "fire and brimstone" is more of a Protestant culture, particularly associated with Presbyterians (God I hope I spelled that right...). How valid is it? Well, depends on the congregation, but it seems from what I know to be more than just a groundless stereotype. My mother's side of the family was raised Presby and they all remember the "fire and brimstone." Other Presbys I've talked to say the same. It's just a different culture, I guess. Really, whatever works for you and motivates you to be a better person.

Irrelevant. The Papacy has not always been in Rome. Priests were originally allowed to marry, as were Popes. The ban on marriage was a result of children of these unions dividing church property as inheritance. It was just easier to ban marriage than to regulate inheritances (though marriage still continued for hundreds of years) Nothing in the Bible really supports organized religion. See, the Bible DOES support spreading the Good News, which is what the Priesthood does. Pastors and Ministers all do the same thing, and there has to be some way for each Church unit to accredit someone. Define mass. Churchgoing is indeed optional, though it is a great way to spread the Good News efficiently. The Bible does say to spread the News. Nothing in the Bible stipulates when it should be. Baptism is symbolic of entering the Christian community in any Christian sect. Infants are new members of the community, who grow up learning more and more about the Good News. They are still part of that community, though, and that is then why Confirmation exists later on, to CONFIRM that, yes, one wants to be a part of the Catholic community after learning about all of everything through the years. Not directly. Not directly. Doesn't change the fact that God chose Mary above all other women. Are you going to tell me that if God picked ONE woman out of all the women in the world to have Jesus...that she isn't special? Come on. Catholics do NOT put Mary up on a level next to God, the Holy Spirit, or Jesus. Not by far. Mary does indeed have a special relationship with God, though, as evidenced by the appearances of Gabriel as well as the entire fact that she carried Jesus in HER WOMB. Catholics just recognize her special relationship. The Hail Mary text is as follows:Hail Mary, full of grace, The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, And blessed is the fruit of your womb. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners Now and forever. Amen. I don't see where this is objectionable at all. Catholics saying this are asking Mary to pray for our salvation. She isn't being asked for Salvation, she is being asked to pray for us.

You are dead wrong, sir.