grandmarquis

There was a letter in "Click and Clack" ( I know, those two are about useless) by a woman that had her electronic power steering fail in her first-gen Prius. Scared the hell out of her. Hmm.

Before that, even...around 1985, they started badging a Corolla variation as the Chevy Nova... it was the first model built at NUMMI, IIRC.

Had an 86 Nova many years ago... an obnoxious litte turd of a car.

Do you understand the differance between a FRAME on a BOF

vehicle that is thick & beefy like an I-beam used to construct

a multiple story building, & a UNIBODY, lightweight $h!box like

some '70s Corolla or Pinto?

Strut towers, floor boards, rear quarters & even roofs should

be completely rotted through FOUR or FIVE times by the time

the FRAME on a BOF car is.

My '92 Buicks' 1/4 panels, floorboards, rocker panels, gastank

straps, door edges & even some of the lightweight hardware

used on the radiator support & suspension components are

rotted like the Titanic and yet the frame shows MAYBE a 5%

loss of structure due to some minor bubbling in a select few

places. Even the base of the Roadmaser's B-pillars have rot

holes for krissake and ONCE AGAIN the frame is SOLID!

Yes, I DO know the difference! What I am giving you is personal experiences of what Ohio's salt use can do to a car. If you wnat BOF experience then here some more. My father was a lawyer and back in the '70s one of his clients had a welding shop on Cleveland's near West Side. He always had a good supply of frame repairs to keep him busy, and he even had to reinforce the frame on his '70 Coupe De Ville. I also have personal experience with 2 '69 LTD's, a '72 LTD, a '65 Impala, a '67 Impala, and a car I ran in the Cuyahoga County Fair demo derby in '81,a SEVEN YEAR OLD COUPE DE VILLE! That Caddy was very rotted, and had even been patched up a couple of years before I aquired it. And believe me, the frame on that car didn't do so well. Your mentioning the solidness of your Roadmaster's frame is meaningless when compared to late '60s and '70s cars, due to FAR better rust preventative coatings and better steel alloys. Oh,I forgot another experience, I had a '77 Bonneville that the frame broke at the cowl, this was back in '92 or '93 IIRC. Due to frame rot, of course.

>>"65-68 GM full-size cars were as well."<<

NEVER heard of, read about, or experienced this, and I say that having owned 4 '65-66 full-size GMs, plus my buddy has owned 6 of those years. Some of these cars had 150K plus and all ran in PA/ NJ: heavily salted areas. 34 years. Would love to

Trust me, Ohio uses FAR more salt than you have ever seen in PA or NJ. When I was a kid I marvelled that there were far more older less-rusty cars on western PA roads, given that (at least to me) that western PA weather was no different than northern Ohio's. I have always believed that Ohio uses road salt not for clearing the roads of snow and ice, but to line the politician's pockets. Cleveland lies above vast salt deposits, and I'm sure that Cargill, Sterling, etc. make sure to "reward" all of the local gov't officials for their salt use.

>>"65-68 GM full-size cars were as well."<<

NEVER heard of, read about, or experienced this, and I say that having owned 4 '65-66 full-size GMs, plus my buddy has owned 6 of those years. Some of these cars had 150K plus and all ran in PA/ NJ: heavily salted areas. I have the bones of a '65 Bonneville out back, frame is rock solid and doesn't even have heavy scale on it, even tho the car was on the road for 34 years. Would love to see a published reference to this.

Maybe I should have clarified that this phenom was a Midwest thing. Here in N.E. Ohio they use gawdawful amounts of road salt, far more that is needed. Back in the '70s is was very common to see badly rusted 5-6 year old cars, some even newer. '70s Corollas, Datsun B210's, and Vegas were probably the worst. My dad had a 74 Vega GT that didn't make it to its 6th birthday before it became so rusty that it was unsafe to drive. There was an instructor at the vo-ed school I went to that had a 4 year old (1976) Corolla that the strut towers were collapsing due to rust. We in the auto body class rigged up a strut tower brace from a door crash beam taken from a '73 Monte Carlo door. I bought a '73 Pinto in the spring of '81 that was so rusty I could pull on the driver's door handle and reach my long arm UNDER the door and lift up the lock button. The latch post had rotted loose of the lower sill. That car drove like a Slinky. My older brother bought a 70 Nova in IIRC '82 that was so rusty that when he got rear-ended the car that hit him ended up alost in the rear seat. The car just collapsed at impact.

So my question is this...I am no auto engineer or expert on metallurgy, so what is the root cause of this. Is it the grade/quality of the steel? The design of the frame rail (boxed vs. open)? Inexperience in making body on frame vehicles?

I have tinkered on cars my whole life and I don't think I can ever recall a frame rail rusting to pieces. Granted, I've seen some pretty f'd up by accidents, but I always was under the impression that the frame rail is supposed to be the back bone/strongest part of the vehicle.

Oh, and having said that ... other then designing the shape of the rail, the ability to construct one to a certain strength does not seem that difficult that someone like Toyota could not accomplish it.

Metalurgy, plain and simple. I can't tell you what is or isn't in the steel Toy used that is causing this issue, but it's definately not the frame design cauing this. BTW, both Ford and GM has frame rust issues back in the day, '69 and '70 full size Fords, Mercurys, and Lincolns were notorious for frame rot. 65-68 GM full-size cars were as well.

I have very fond memories of my 1970 El Camino and my 1974 Ranchero.... me want one!!!

VehiCross? Gawd that thing is ghastly ugly. Maybe the only vehicle that can compete with the Aztek for Ugliest Vehicle Ever award. The only Isuzu I would ever consider is a late 80's/early90's Trooper diesel. Slow as a glacier, but about indestructible.

Well, I guess it's not THAT bad.... compared to the new Sequoia anyway. Kinda bores me to tears. Looks like the old Pilot had a lovechild with a Jeep Commander.

whenever someone starts rattling about how much better Toyotas are.... I just ask them how many old Chevy Caprices <"you know, the old cop car" - if they can't remember> they still see around... and how many old Camrys.

100% of the time, the next words out of their mouth are "Yes, but..."

I think I have figured that out... I would bet that the vast majority of Toyroda buyers are the "3 and out" leasers. They dump their 3 yr old Cramry off at the stealer and drive off in a new one. They really couldn't care less about what happens further down the food chain when these peices of crap are out of warranty.

Finding a 10yr old Cramry on teh streets of Cleveland is about as difficult as finding an honest politician. 10-plug GM and Ford products? Hell, I drive a 13 yr old Merc every day. And 10 yr old Toyota pickups are even rarer than Cramrys.

Ummm, no. Try again.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all. Let me be the first to welcome you to the site. :AH-HA_wink:

And yes, I don't think their recent trouble will cripple them by any means. It may slow their growth and give them a little awakening though. I think GM is being more competitive than ever, and Toyota isn't going to be able to dominate as easily as it was able to during its rise towards the top.

Yes, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder..... and somewhere in this big world there is someone that thinks Rosie O'Donnell is hot. Doesn't make it so.

BTW, I took a little time to read Yahoo Auto reviews of the 07 Camry... not good. Not good at all.

My guess is... yes. 3-4 percent.

Just another case of style over substance. Lame.

This just keeps on getting better and better...

If it looks like a recall and quacks like a recall.... what else do you call it?

Toyota... Moving Forward, with the help of AAA.

BTW, I used to carry a Sears 15 horse tractor (probably 600 or so lbs) in the back of my 70 El Camino many years ago, using the tailgate to hold the ramps up. My Elky's gate never failed me. Ever.

Now, in all fairness, I had this problem on my Silverado. Any weight on the tailgate caused it to sag badly. Totally unacceptable.

... BTW, it was a $30.00 Taiwan knockoff tailgate on my horribly battered 370,000 mile 77 Silverado, LOL!!! Boy I miss that truck. Best truck ever made

and the walls...go tumblin' down

yea the walls, go tumblin' tumblin'...

Down.......

A friend had to have the front end completely rebuilt on his 99 CRV... ball joints were ready to pop apart. And he bought it based soley on Honda's "impeccable" quality. Total POS IMHO.

Nothing like a little creative bookkeeping...

Hyundai would make Joseph Goebbels proud...

several of you keep saying the frame is cracking. It's not the frame, it's the body.

Yes it IS the body cracking... but it is clearly due to excessive frame flex. AsI said in an ealier post between the #1 (core support) and #2 (cowl) body mounts the frame is weak. As I said, stay tuned.

looks like a ram and a f150s love child to me. looks like a dodge coming at you and a ford going away from you.

http://photos4.ebizautos.com/5775/2105000_2_400.jpg

http://i9.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/ab/69/8f6a_12.JPG

That flat spot in the middle of the Turdra makes me wonder...... did they get the cargo box all finshed up, mount it to the frame, and say "@#%^&$, the gate hits the bumper, lets put an intentional dent in it"? And what's with those bulbous taillights?