smk4565

If big sedans were high in demand, auto makers would update them every 5 years, not every 10-16 years like the Ford Panther platform. Buying a smaller car isn't down grading, there are a lot of small to midsize cars that are nice and much more expensive than a $23,000 Impala or $26,000 Crown Vic before rebate. Big coupes are in even less demand, I suspect the Challenger will flop because of this and high gas prices.

The CL550 is 199 inches long, aside from a Bentley/Rolls car it is the biggest coupe, but with a $105,000 base price they aren't selling many. The largest BMW coupe is smaller than the CTS, likewise with Audi or Lexus or Infiniti. Big 2 door cars are a thing of the past. The days of Rivieras, Mark VIIIs, Monte Carlos are over. The 2000-2005 Monte Carlo was longer than a BMW 750i. It isn't just in 2 door cars, people aren't buying big sedans like the Crown Vic anymore either, people gravitate toward midsize. The CTS coupe is 4 inches shorter than the sedan, that is a a good thing. Looks like a hatchback, that is a bad thing.

I said people don't want big coupes (like the Monte Carlo) that are STS size. Those coupes are smaller, a 6-series is 190 inches long, the CLK is 183 inches long, much smaller than any Cadillac. The CTS coupe is 187.4 inches long.

A 2 door STS would be like a Monte Carlo, people don't want huge coupes. I was wondering how long the CTC is and what the wheelbase is. I am hoping it is shorter than the 4 door version, it looks like it is. I hope the doors aren't super long like the Monte Carlo.

I read all the previous posts. I like the sedan a lot better, because the coupe from the side (much like a Prius) looks like a wedge of cheese. The back is too hatchback looking for me, I don't like the yellow on the interior or brakes, but I assume the production version will ditch that for conventional colors. About the CAFE thing, BMW and Mercedes don't have Hummers or pick-up trucks that get 14-16 mpg, and their volume comes from small to midsize cars that they can diesel power. GM's volume is in trucks, which hurts their CAFE position (although not as much as Chrysler). Plus Mercedes started selling Smart cars here this year, and BMW has Mini, those balance out the V10 and V12 cars they have. And if they don't meet CAFe standards, they will just pay the fine.

My main point is people can't compare a CTS to a 5-series or a CTS-V to an M5 because of feature content. I agree that if the CTS added all the stuff on my original list it would cost $60,000, which is what a 5-series costs. Then they would be more comparable. I just think Cadillac needs a car that is in the $48-65,000 range that is like the A6, 5-series, E-class and Jaguar XF. Whether that is the CTS when it gets the MCE or a totally new car, doesn't matter to me. They also need a small car that can compete performance wise with the 335i, which I know is coming, but it can't come soon enough. The CTS is still a car I'd test drive, I like the exterior look, but hate the plastic grille, the interior layout I am not a big fan of and my knee hits the console. The old CTS I thought hat a perfect driver seating position and I loved the console angled to the driver and every control was exactly where it should have been. Problem was the materials were low rent. The Jaguar XF is my current favorite car. I also just read the new Jaguar 5.0 liter V8 makes 470 hp naturally aspirated, so with the supercharger output would be as high as 600 hp, though the production car will likely be tuned down.

I 100% agree. BMW's styling isn't the best, but the materials are first rate. And that picture is the 2005 M5 interior, they have given it a slight upgrade for 2008. The C-class interior has way too much gray plastic, it one of the weakest interiors in the entry-lux class.

Nope. Even the best pushrod won't be as refined as the best DOHC engine. The Northstar is an average DOHC engine at this point and is still more refined than any GM pushrod. Even the Malibu had to go DOHC only because the pushrod couldn't match Honda and Toyota in refinement.

I thought you meant Mercedes Bluetec which averages about 27 mpg. Is Cadillac's diesel 50 state emission compliant? If so, they should put it on sale during the 2008 calendar year.

Refinement. Ever notice that every Lexus, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti, and Acura has DOHC engines (SOHC for the Benz V12).

BMW's diesel (335d or 535d) is 23/33 mpg and has 265 hp and 425 lb-ft. Only 66 dBA interior noise at 70 mph, that is Lexus LS460 level. The Camry 4-cylinder is 21/31 by comparison to the diesels. I think diesel will be a big hit.

All those luxury features I listed, Lexus, BMW or Mercedes offers. The 5-series has an optional 20 way seat; Mercedes has power head rests. Personally, I wouldn't pay for power sun shade, lane departure, or adaptive cruise control, but the other brands offer it. The Lexus GS is an 8 speed, the E-class is a 7-speed, the 5-series is going 8 speed on the new model. 8 speeds may not give much more benefit than 6, but it's a marketing tool and gives exclusivity. If the CTS wants to be in the $48-70k sedan class they have to offer that stuff. Even the Toyota Avalon has adaptive cruise control. The CTS needs a diesel that averages 27-28 mpg or a hybrid version that does the same. If they offered both together they would blow away the competition. The 5/100,000 is powertrain only, certified used Cadillacs have a 6/100,000 bumper to bumper, why not just make that standard on new cars if the car is truly reliable. BMW has a 12 year rust warranty, Cadillac's is 6 years. Saab even does free maintenance for 4 years, Cadillac should too. The long warranties help resale value because the car will sell with fewer discounts when new and be more desirable after 4-5 years on the used market because it will still be under warranty while other cars are not.

Why do all the car magazines compare the CTS to the 3-series, C350 and G35?

I know the 5-series isn't a high end car, I stated earlier it is middle range. BMW has the 6 and 7 series priced higher, just like M-B has the CLS and S-class. Cadillac doesn't have a $100,000 sedan. Here is why the CTS is not in the same class as the 5-series and E-class: CTS base price $33,000, E-class is $51,000. CTS needs to offer (they can be options) Bluetooth, 15 speaker 7.1 surround, power rear sunshade, heated steering wheel, heated rear seats, head up display, adaptive cruise control, lane departure/blind spot warning, tool and first aid kit, at least 14 way power seats, 4 years paid for maintenance, 12 year rust warranty, power tilt/telescoping steering wheel, rear side window sunshades, electronic parking brake, a 380+ hp DOHC V8, a diesel, a 7 or 8 speed automatic, a hybrid. And that is to just get even. To leap ahead I'd say diesel V8 possibly with belt-alternator light hybrid to really boost fuel economy, messaging seats like the S550 has, tri-zone climate control, 6 year/100k mile bumper to bumper warranty. In response to NOS, I am not sure of how the CTS is ahead of the 5-series aside from USA sales, but the 5-series is a lot more expensive. The 5-series is the known standard and benchmark that other companies compare to. The Jaguar XF-R will have a 5.0 liter V8 with a supercharger. Cadillac right now is tier 2, I wish they weren't but they are. CTS is $33k, STS and DTS are $43-44k. (sounds like Acura TL and RL) The XLR is $78k, but doesn't sell and depreciates quickly. To be a tier 1 brand they need a $48k base price sedan and an $85k base price sedan.

$31,600 is the blue book value of a 2004 E500 4-matic. A new E550 is $60,500 base price without all wheel drive. The last generation E-class had window controls in the middle by the shifter, but the current car has just the shifter and no switches in the middle. Mercedes puts seat controls on high on the door.

But Lexus has 3 hybrids: RX, GS and LS. Mercedes has E class and GL class diesel. BMW has 2 diesels going on sale during 2008 and X6 hybrid and 5-series diesel are coming soon.

The 420 hp in the XF is the middle engine. The XF-R will have over 500 hp from a new DOHC V8. I am not convinced that the CTS-V interior is any better than the STS-V interior, and the STS-V failed to compete with the M5 and E63. The Audi RS6 has 580 hp and no one considers that to be a benchmark car. But notice even Cadillac said BMW was their benchmark and what they aimed for. They admit they are chasing BMW rather than being a leader at performance/luxury. Comparing the CTS to the 5-series is like comparing the G8 to the CTS. The G8 is rear drive, has leather seats and the same V6 and offers a V8 that is faster than a CTS DI for a lot less money, but there is a big difference in materials in a G8 and in a CTS. The same holds true for CTS and 5-series, they may have similar size and power/drivetrain, but there is a difference. I wish they would improve the CTS interior, load it with technology, put a $47,000 base price on the CTS and blow the 5-series away but Cadillac is afraid it seems of the higher end luxury market. Cadillac could sell 750,000 cars a year if they were what they used to be, (1902-1959 era), but what they are now is a tier 2 luxury brand. I'd rather see them tier 1 and leading the way, not competing with Lincoln and Acura as to who can crank more power from a V6 because they are too gutless to make a V8 or V12 or a legit S-class competitor.

The M5 interior is nothing great either (the above pic is the 05 interior, they made it a little better for 08). The 5-series also came out in fall 2003, it is near the end, where as the CTS is brand new, the 5-series will be all new in a year or so. The Mercedes C-class has a garbage interior. The E-class though has better materials than the CTS does, despite the hard seats. The CLS is pretty nice and they make that in AMG tune as well. The Ford Focus also has a hard drive to store songs in, the CTS can't live off having a hard drive as cutting edge. Using top quality leather, aluminum, wood, carpet, etc make a good interior. Jaguar XF is an example. The CTS interior is good for entry level luxury cars, but lacks heads-up display, lane departure warning, Bluetooth, adaptive cruise control, heated steering wheel, 7.1 surround sound, etc. The mid-level cars like the 5-series, E-class, CLS, Jag XF have that stuff. I don't really care for BMW styling inside or out, but I recognize that they use quality materials and their cars have the best handling/driving/steering. BMW sales were up 6.7% in 2007, Mercedes and Lexus were up 1.8% and Cadillac was down 5.7%. BMW is doing something right. If the CTS-V is priced around $63,000 like the M3, people will compare it to an M3, just like the CTS DI is compared to the 335i. The M3 is 3500 pounds, 4200-4300 for a CTS-V, that is a bad mismatch on a curvy road. The Corvette performs near the low end Ferraris because of it's low weight. I don't understand why GM understands that with the Vette, but not with Cadillac. Giving up on a DOHC V8 and not having diesel and hybrid CTS on sale this year also show they don't understand the luxury market.

The question is will it cost $82,900 to compete with the M5 (GM says in the press release M5 and E63 are the competitors)? Or will it be priced around $62-65,000 and get compared with the M3 which is much lighter and more agile. It doesn't have an $82,000 car interior, and it can't handle with an M3 that is 750 pounds lighter. The same CTS vs 335i or 535i argument exists. From a styling standpoint, I like the base car's grille more this looks too much like the old one. I like the wood better than the black stuff that replaced it, and I am not a big fan of the G8 concept wheels.

Looks way too much like a Vue, I am sure the BRX will look like a Vue with a Cadillac grille. The tail lights don't quite fit right with the Vue's curved rear end either. The BRX will be so much like a Vue. The BRX and canceling V8s is just dragging Cadillac's image down. GM fans (including myself) always make fun of Lexus for rebadging the Camry, yet that is what Cadillac is moving toward, rather than making unique vehicles that stand out. Cadillac used to be the best in the world, now they are becoming a V6 only brand (with a couple v-series cars) and dressed up Saturns. They are just like Acura and Lincoln, all V6 and dressed up from the lower brand. Compare Acura and Lincoln to BMW and Mercedes, who has more status? Fuel cell is nice and all, but there is no where to buy hydrogen, and unless it is cheaper to buy than gas and as readily available people aren't going to buy it. Unless GM makes up something like Honda did with a home refueling station that they did with the FXS Clarity or whatever it's called. If they want to do a fuel cell Cadillac though, it better perform like a Cadillac should, they'll need more power and speed.

I know, it is supposed to be out as a 2009 model. So if the Impala is Ep. 2 then won't it just be a cheaped out version of the LaCrosse? And once the LaCrosse moves up market it is going to steal Lucerne sales, much like the CTS is stealing STS sales. The 300C/Charger have been more successful than the front drivers they replaced, but they don't sell in huge volumes because of their size. A rear drive midsize car would outsell a full size rear drive car. Why Ford didn't take the Mustang's success and make a 4 door car off that platform and choose the 500/Taurus huge front driver is beyond me.

A front drive Impala that is prices a little more than the Malibu just creates more competition for Buick. The Malibu is already far superior to the LaCrosse, why give Buick more competition when they are fading as it is. The Impala should be rear drive, and not 205 inches long and 4200 pounds if they are worried about gas mileage. Rear drive leads to better ride and handling and most of the market doesn't do it, this is a chance for GM to capture new buyers. The CAFE and mpg solution lies with diesel. The BMW 335d and 535d have 425 lb-ft of torque and get 2 mpg more than a 4 cylinder Camry. I think GM uses CAFE as an excuse for why they won't make a Zeta Impala, or a new V8 for Cadillac, when really they just want to shed costs and platform share, and hope marketing can create perceived differences between their 7 front drive sedans. That didn't work in the 80s, didn't work in the 90s, isn't working in the 2000s and won't work in the 2010s. smallchevy is right, it is about creating a new market. GM can build a car 20% better than the Accord and still not win back Camry or Accord buyers. A lot of Camry/Accord type buyers won't even consider a domestic car. GM has to seek out new buyers, get people coming from SUVs, or Mustang/sports car buyers that need a sedan but liked rear drive, Grand Marquis/Crown Vic drivers that like rear drive but want smaller and better fuel economy, etc.

Buick sales were down 23% in 2007 to 185,791 units. The Enclave isn't saving them, they are still in the same free fall they have been in for the last 20 years. Oldsmobile sold 265,878 cars the year GM decided to kill them due to slow and declining sales. Hummer and Saab sales are even more in the tank. How come CAFE regulations kill rear drive Impalas and a new V8 for Cadillac but they keep making Hummers?

The Impala should be rear drive because GM has 1 rear drive sedan that isn't a Cadillac and for front drive lovers the G6, Aura, Malibu, LaCrosse, Lucerne, 9-3, 9-5, Delta platform (though much smaller) and the Lambdas and theta SUVs are front drive and car based. They have a ton of front drive stuff for people to choose from, and hardly anything rear wheel drive. As far as Buick goes, they are not a luxury brand. Their top end sedan has a base price of $25,500, and almost always has a $2500 rebate (wow a Buick flagship for less than a Camry 4-cylinder). That puts Buick closer to Ford than Lincoln, let alone Lexus. When the cheapest car on a Buick lot is $33,000 and the brand has fewer than 9% fleet sales, they can think about being a luxury brand.

Good point about the GP, that was 78% fleet sale, so the Impala will pick those up. The Impala is 58% fleet sale now, it could easily hit 65% fleet which will make it really undesirable to retail customers regardless of engine, drivetrain, styling, chrome, or anything else. I thought the LaCrosse was supposed to be longer than the Malibu (but shorter than the current LaCrap) but looking at the spy photos the body shape looks nearly identical to the Malibu. Similar to how the LaCrosse and Grand Prix shared side panels and window shape.