thegriffon

Now that I've updated to 1.5 I can confirm that it works fine with C&G.

We know the Enclave is not a minivan, this is one of those digressions that tends to happen in long threads, a result of a debate over the merits of a luxury minivan now that Buick will have the Enclave.

I'm thinking in terms of MPV's like the Toyota Wish, Honda Odyssey (Japanese/international market), Honda Stream etc.. Note that the US MPVS listed are all two-box like the R-Class. While lower and with a more European style with conventional doors, it is also lower than the Pacifica, which is more a large crossover like the Freestyle and Audi Q7. Compare also the position of the front wheel in relation to the doors on the R-class with conventional wagons like the Pacifica and MPVs like the ones pictured—the R-Class matches the latter with it's cab-forward design to maximise space. Height, wheelbase to overall-length ratios, and seating arrangments all put the R-Class in the MPV segment. More MPVs similar in size to the swb model match the R-class better than the taller American-style models you have there.

Possibly. If Delta dies the signs are the sedans would have a lwb like the Brazilian Vectra version of the new Astra, matching the Megane and Civic (standard wheelbase C-segment hatches, lwb D-segment sedan and wagon). Nissan will follow by offering a version of the new D-segment Bluebird as a Sentra replacement. Toyota could easily dump the Corolla sedan and wagon for the more attractive D-segment Allion/Premio sedan and Caldina wagon, but will probably just get side-swiped by the emerging trend.

Since someone has already mentioned it I will gaine invoke the R-Class, which is in design and dimension a fullsize MPV, not a crossover. After three months on the market it's already as popular as the S-Class and CLK-Class, Mercedes 4th, best-selling model in November. Why shouldn't there be a luxury minivan? Everything that makes a minivan popular (room, versatility, seat height etc.) fits the requirements of the luxury segment perfectly. I thought of the idea 15 years ago for Cadillac and it still works today. For BMW, okay a minivan is not the ultimate drivers' car, but for Lexus, Mercedes (well they've done it already) Cadillac and even Audi a luxury MPV may be an even better idea than a humungous SUV like the Q7 (just as big but without the room). As for Saturn there is always the rumored Epsilon-based Opel MPV said to be similar to the (swb) R-Class.

In that case wait until they emerge from bankruptcy. Shareholders almost always lose everything when a company seeks the protection of bankruptcy. Fortunately there have been some encouraging signs. G6 sales finally took off in November, helping Pontiac to a bigger sales gain than Toyota. Same-model sales were up nearly 20% (excluding Bonneville, Firebird, Sunfire, Solstice, Torrent and Aztek). Although the Relay has not made up for the loss of the L-Series, sales at Saturn are relatively flat thanks to improved sales of the Vue, and a big boost for the Ion and Vue in November gave Saturn a bigger increase in sales than Pontiac. The Aura and Outlook could easily push Saturn well over 300K—ahead of Mazda, VW and Kia (they are already ahead of Mercury).

Only if GM implodes. Toyota is putting in more capacity, but that may not mean they will have that many more sales so soon. Much of this increased capacity is for production of the Toyota Camry in China and Russia, with talk of even more capcity being added, you should be sceptical of how many Camrys they'll actually sell in markets where the most popular cars are under $6000 in price.

And don't foregt that the W-body MS2000 platform is going away.

The IS is Cadillac territory. Perhaps you mean the something like the TSX, a great car to emulate, selling what? 3000 in a good month, less than half that in a bad (for some reason sales drop 60% every November). There's always the Chinese-market Buick Excelle and while I have suggested that an Epsilon model similar to the Vectra might be a nice addition as a Skylark, there may not be enough demand. If the Excelle is even replaced (and not dumped in favor of the Chevrolet Optra), then a D-segment sedan of Global Compact Car is more likely than Epsilon.

Remember the "new" Malibu would be an additional line to the current Malibu.

Aura is on "a long wheelbase …", but no-one said it is on the long wheelbase.

Simplistic, but ultimately correct. Only a salesman would think marketing plans could "fix" GM. There's a lot wrong with GM's PR and marketing as Autoextremist regularly points out, but marketing is like government—at best good marketing will effectively educate about virtues of the company and it's product, but it can never be the companies only virtue. Bad marketing can sink a company, but good marketing can not save it unless everything else is running just as well. Good product and a sound financial structure though can overcome anything but the most counter-productive marketing. BM has become a bitter, vindictive idealogue, and has lost focus on GM's real problems. No matter how good the marketing, no matter how good the product, Wagonewr and co have to overcome decades of bad management and structural problems. Jobs in NA would still have to go, plants would have to close. GMAC needs to be cut free. As for losing their no1 position, it appears Toyota will soon have more capacity than GM, but that is not going to translate automatically into more sales. If GM has too much capacity, where does that leave Toyota? North American commentators are fond of saying Hyundai is set to be the next Toyota, yet there is another Korean automaker also on the way up, and challenging Toyota in global markets such as Latin America, Africa, Europe and Asia—GM Daewoo under the Chevrolet brand. BM complains that GM can't cut it's way to growth, and that's right, but while GM cuts costs and closes under-used plants in the US it is increasing development spending on fewer products and expanding in growth markets such as Eastern Europe, China and India. International sales are already more important to GM than North America, in total and for each brand except Pontiac and GMC (if you count Saturn=Opel). This is a strategy for growth, and it's working. Chevrolet's international sales growth makes Toyota's US gains look anemic.

Indeed, but the Relay is nowhere near as popular as the Pontiac and Buick. The Terraza in particular is a surprise hit (relatively), so BPG will get a big minivan instead of Saturn. If Saturn gets a minivan at all it will be something different entirely.

Isn't that what they build already?

No, Chevy and at this point GMC.

P.S. Anyone like to post the revised GMI version of the poll at other boards, say LS1tech or VWVortex? The more people see it and vote for a rwd G6/Tempest, the more likely GM will notice and pay attention. I wonder if we can get a comment from the fbodfather?

I assume the 42 "Seperate GTO" votes are split between those who want a fwd and rwd G6 (Tempest if you like). Phrased differently on GMI but with fewer total votes the vote is split between evenly between related and unrelated rwd G6 and GTO models (70%) and 30% for a fwd G6. sensibly no-one there has voted for a fwd GTO. If only a few of those people would have bought another vehicle instead of the Tempest then Pontiac would easily match the current G6 sales, if not far surpass it.

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103754

No, what I'm saying is if the program is still "alive" then GM will expect commitments from suppliers who are assigned work. Being told by others that it has been cancelled undermines that. Especially in the current environment many will be asking "What is GM not telling us?"

The problem would arise if it has not been cancelled, as the GM insiders seem to be saying.

Perhaps more importantly it may be hard to get suppliers to commit to a program they've heard has already been cancelled.

Which is why there are industrial intelligence analysts in the first place. I would have been happy to keep discussing it privately, but perhaps it's time for GM to issue some reassurances or updates re certain programs that some of us were shown earlier this year (with perhaps a little more discretion this time).

SSHHHHH!!!!! It's a secret.

I was going to suggest something similar, but it has it's drawbacks (no input from mighty mouse etc.) and I can't really discuss it here :AH-HA_wink: To quote one of my favorite Harrison Ford movies: "The course of action I'd suggest is the course of action I can't suggest."

The key may be what this large supplier is working on and whether it is platform independent (given a similar program is still planned).