G. David Felt

Correct, Dealers do not pay MSRP, but they also do not pay the dealer invoice, this is a paper shell game as they get the OEM Hold back amount which on some auto's is a percentage and on others is a set amount that the OEM refunds to the dealer when said auto is sold. I think at this point, everyone here knows the basics of the dealership, the pricing games played. The point that many here have stated is it would be nicer to have the option of buying direct from the OEM rather than a Dealer, pay their MSRP (Manufactured Suggested Retail Price) rather than haggle at the dealership. Yes, in the past Pre-Pandemic and Chip shortage, one could haggle if they are prepared from the Dealer Invoice, taking in to account the hold back and order up the exact auto they want. Sadly most, 99.9999% of people do not have the ability to save, prep and plan to do this, as such they accept what is on the lot to buy/lease be it new or CPO. Yes I started this multiple page discussion / debate due to my hatred for AMV 2nd stickers and what I perceive as a piss poor business practice that States should investigate as it had led to manipulation and what I believe is a rip off of the consumer. I also will go on record that at this point, the dealership laws of states are not only out of date, but OEM auto companies need to drop saying MSRP and just go with MRP. Ensure there is a fair profit to the OEM and if they want dealers to survive, a proper profit for them and make it where they lose their dealership franchise if they do AMV stickers on new auto's. I am willing to bet that the majority, more than 2/3rds of the U.S. population would be happy to see a new auto announced, pricing and know going to the OEM store, online or a franchise location that the price they saw is what they will pay. I think this topic has played itself out and encourage us to move on with other topics. IN ALTERNATIVE FUELS PROPULLSION RANDOM news: Toyota will have their solid-state battery first out in the Prius Hybrid line, not in BEV @ 2025 Interesting talking points: 2:45 Toyota admits problems with hybrids 4:08 Toyota admits ineffective petrol cars, 10 MW. Imagine how many miles a BEV can do with 10 MW. A question I would ask him is if Toyota is to be the Solid-State Battery leader, then why have they been lobbying so hard to halt the push of BEVs, Mileage standards and Pollution Standards?

Sheep

What I love for the most part about Washington, mild winter weather, solid health care and a pay as you go state, so no state income tax, just a basic 10% sales tax. Nice part is you can be just a few hours from the core of Seattle and be very rural and still only be 30 min from the downtown of smaller surrounding cities. I DO NOT handle heat well at all, so I will never move to the southern states. For me, it would appear that we will stay in this house till death do us part as the wife wants to stay close to the kids. Good thing I bought back in 1999 as it was cheap and this was rural then, now considered Suburbs.

Hey BIFF, Wanna re-think that statement as I would not say sales #'s in the U.S. is good. Based on just the U.S. and Canada Numbers, the G-Wagon should be discontinued based on your posted past statements about other auto companies. More interesting is that Mercedes-Benz no longer breaks out the G-Wagon as it is part of the G-Class of SUVs and so one has to wonder how many they really sold? Seems their starting to make it grey to really see how many sales by model number. Mercedes-Benz sees strong demand as high-end and electrified vehicle sales surge - Daimler Global Media Site I will say that MB had greater than other auto companies drop in sales. Interesting is that MB USA still breaks down the model numbers in reporting compaired to the Parent Company web site. so G-Class it would seem is the G-Wagon of past and still not that great of sales numbers. If the parent company site is using the same, then the G-Class / G-Wagon sold just a little over 41,000 globally. Which still is nothing compared to other SUVs here in the US by sales numbers alone. So then I think that GM is on the right path to success as the Escalade has been selling well in both standard and ESV numbers globally. So seems MB G-Class is finally catching up to Cadillac.

@surreal1272 I find it speaks volumes when SMK is presented with facts and yet he chooses to ignore my post that shows he is full of BS and move the goal posts with an ever-changing Apples to Oranges comparison and excuses while attacking American Business. Seems he needs to move to Germany.

I myself would rather have a GM or FORD store, check out the item and decide if I want to pay the price they are asking and if not move onto another company. Dealerships are hell to deal with and the public has made this very clear as well as states where they have sued and forced a dealership to sell due to the sleaze tactics they have taken against people.

YOU ARE SO FULL OF BS!!! GM has plenty of rides selling north of $100K and GMC is proving under the Denali to be one of their best profit margin lines of auto's. Ford #'s for 2021 show more people are choosing Green Mach-e to quote their own press release of numbers: December 2021 Press Release (ford.com) Mach-e sold 27,140 for 2021 increase of 904,566.7% Mustang sold 61,090 for 2021 decreased 14.2% Meanwhile Mrecedes-Benz really is not increasing sales in the US, Van sales dropped 20+% in 2021 and EV sales for the US is a pathetic 443 EQS sold. GLOBALLY, Sales are down 5%, to quote the MB press release on their BEV's: Deliveries of Mercedes-Benz plug-in hybrid and electric passenger cars reached a record 227,458 units (+69.3%) of which 48,936 were Mercedes-EQ battery electric passenger cars (BEV) (+154.8%). Including smart and Mercedes-Benz Vans, total BEV sales rose above 99,000 units. The bulk of this was China with Europe coming in second and still MB does not have anything for the masses in Europe.

Interesting read, looked at the pdf and I do question some of the findings, but a good read nonetheless. https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38698676/does-anyone-want-an-electric-car/

So via LinkedIn, Walmart CEO has confirmed expanding in home grocery delivery creating 3,000 new roles and will use BrightDrop delivery vans to make this happen giving GM another big contract of EV vans. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dougmcmillon_walmart-to-expand-inhome-delivery-reaching-activity-6884590382848589824-VEOR

Yet behind the American Big boys as with two EVs, they will catch up to Ford that has two out now. In regard to Mercedes versus GM, by the end of this year, GM will have Bolt, BOLT EUV, Hummer EV Truck & SUV, Chevrolet Truck EV next year, Equinox EV also next year, Blazer EV end of 2023 and many more to come by 2025. That shows Mercedes is very much behind and will have to play catch up after getting caught with their pants down on Dieselgate. Catching up to Tesla, how about Mercedes catching up to Ford and GM. ?

I have to say, I can wait till this goes into production. I think this is an awesome solution to convert my 1994 GMC Suburban from ICE to BEV. I could dig AWD with 577 HP and 10,156 lb-ft of torque.

Magna EtelligentForce PowerTrain system is an electric 4WD system for pickups and light duty commercial vehicles paired with Magna eBeam technology gives full capabilities without compromising payload or towing capacities and is targeted for full production from 2025. Pickup trucks and full-size SUVs are at their height of popularity and comes at a pivotal time where legacy OEM auto builders are looking for ways to eliminate emissions and yet maintain full capabilities. Created to benefit the 3/4-ton and 1-ton truck class. EtelligentForce features Magna's eDrive technology at the front and its eBeam electrified beam axle at the rear. This allows the following capabilities: Towing up to 14,500 pounds Total peak power of 430 kW (577 HP) with Peak Torque of 13,770 Nm (10,156 lb-ft) 250 kW (335 HP) / 10,000 Nm (7,376 lb-ft of Torque) rear eBeam 180 kW (242 HP) / 3,770 Nm (2,780 lb-ft of torque) front eDrive. Omits need for architectural changes Totally customizable allowing to prioritize key performance attributes. Magna's eBeam replaces traditional beam axles, accommodating existing suspension and brake systems, and avoiding the need for expensive redesign of existing truck platforms. This could if Magna so chooses to be an excellent way to convert existing ICE full size trucks and SUVs to electric. Fewer moving parts in comparison to traditional ICE powertrain, the EtelligentForce powertrain requires less maintenance - a direct benefit to truck / SUV owners over the life of the vehicle. Magna is setting up a dedicated EV center at its U.S. headquarters in Troy, Michigan. This team will be dedicated to preparing and launching the EtelligentForce Solution in the North American EV Market from 2025 forward in addition to other EV products. Magna has the EtelligentForce powertrain solution joining their two existing powertrain solutions the EtelligentEco focused on PHEV production and the EtelligentReach Bev Powertrain solution. Magna had a booth at CES 2022, and allows a in depth virtual attendance of their booth here: Magna at CES 2022 | Magna International This technology has already been put into production as Magna provides the EtelligentReach as the RWD/AWD powertrain for the Jaguar I-Pace built by Magna's Austria division for Jaguar. Magna is also to build the Fisker Ocean BEV for Fisker Auto Group using their BEV tech for the Crossover. News Release - Magna’s EtelligentForce Simplifies Electrification of Truck Segment Magna at CES 2022 | Magna International Product Storyboards EtelligentForce (magna.com) EtelligentForce (magna.com) EtelligentEco (magna.com) EtelligentReach (magna.com) Fisker Ocean | Fisker Inc. View full article

Japan has a HUGE American Muscle scene, just have to wait like here in the US a few decades to import without restrictions those muscle cars one loves.

Now that they have released actual images of the Chrysler Airflow and that it is near production ready, this is an impressive EV and should do well for Chrysler dealers.

While I have not found the stories again, I do now that somewhere in the Rivian threads I had posted what was in the Bloomberg / WallStreet / CNN interviews where RJ the CEO said they are exploring alternative bed lengths to add down the road due to the flexible nature of their Skateboard platform. All one has to do is look at the Fleet section where you have your choice of 500 / 700 / 900 cubic feet vans on the same platform and see how much bigger they are and the fact that you can get them in FWD or AWD format for delivery services. AWD is focused on the Northern States where ice and snow make delivery more challenging. As such, I see them around Seattle all the time since this is the HQ market. Even in the testing in California where they have been caught with an R1T which you can clearly see is much shorter than the Van. So, 6- and 8-foot trucks are possible, and I tend to believe since the photo slipped of the king cab or extended cab version, that they would also have other formats.

As has been stated the same platform has been used for extended length Amazon Prime Delivery vans which proves they can easily build them longer no problem. Then on top of this, this story with leaked picture of a extended length truck got the CEO to say in other interviews they do have longer bed lengths being tested. Did Rivian Accidentally Leak An Extended Cab Version Of The R1T Truck? (insideevs.com) This of course led to these images.

@surreal1272 @Robert Hall Here are the specs of Unimog versus Hummer EV Truck. Unimog U 4023/U 5023: Technical data - Mercedes-Benz Trucks - Trucks you can trust (mercedes-benz-trucks.com) 6 to 13 tones of weight depending on which model and configuration. Wheelbase = 3,850 mm = 235-inch Body spec = 4,100 x 2,280 x 1,400 mm = 161.4 x 139.1 x 55.1 inches Length x Width x Height Turning Radius = 16.4 meters = 54 feet Ground Clearance = 10 to 20 inches depending on tire size. Approach Angle = 41 to 46 degrees depending on model Departure Angle = 39 to 50 degrees depending on model Breakover Angle = none stated Introducing the GMC HUMMER EVs | Electric Truck & SUV Truck & SUV Weight = 9,046 lbs or Wheelbase = 135.6 or 126.7 inches Height = 79.1 or 77.8 inches Width = 73.3 inches for both Length = 216.8 or 206.7 inches Turning Radius = 37 or 35 feet for 4-wheel steering / 44 or 45 feet for 2-wheel steering Truck Ground Clearance = 11.9" to 15.9" SUV Ground Clearance = 12" to 16" Truck Approach Angle = 44 to 50 degrees Truck Departure Angle = 33 to 39 degrees Truck Breakover Angle = 25 to 32 degrees SUV Approach Angle = 44 to 50 degrees SUV Departure Angle = 41 to 50 degrees SUV Breakover Angle = 27 to 35 degrees Overall, I think the Hummer is a very capable off-road EV due to the hydraulic suspension system.

Seems Stellantis CEO has finally answered that they believe GM is the Loser since they are second in the EV truck race and that RAM will have an EV Truck out in 2024, so plan for seeing it this year some time, but others while RAM is riding HIGH on their trucks might see this as a failure and behind the other two big truck makers. Only time will tell. For sure I can see RAM seeing what Ford and GM did and toping them. This is the way it has always played out. The Big Three leap frogging each other for the Top truck of the year. Stellantis CEO: Ram 1500 electric truck being adjusted to boost specs (freep.com)

Rivian has proven that the skateboard chassis is actually easier to extend as they have their 8ft test mules out now. I expect this is more of a keep thing close to the vest. GM having stated they will have an HD EV line while ford has stated no plans for Super Duty EVs (Ford: No plans for all-electric Super Duty trucks (freep.com)) and yet has proven in their EV truck that it can pull more than Diesel with the Million pounds tow of the train and trucks. I fully expect since GM has shown they can scale up and down the Ultium platform for various auto size needs that 6- and 8-foot trucks are in our future. As Mary Barra has stated, HD Trucks will be out before 2035, yes long ways away, but does give them time to perfect their Ultium Platform.

Washington state has required 220V outlets in the garage for chargers since 2015. With the tech boom here, many new home developments in the last 5 years have also included a 220V CCS charger. So, for me, it is probably far more common than most states I have to assume as to why it is so easy to see here. Even with the cost of say $1,500 for a 220V install for charging, with federal and state rebates, many people can offset that cost and still come out ahead over ICE I believe. I understand your point, I think EVs also have to work into your lifestyle. As an active outdoors person and in a state where Rivian and Tesla have made a point of installing along with Jeep now chargers at offroad parks, ski resorts, national and state parks to compliment what the state has installed, this has expanded the fast charge ability for people to live an outdoors active lifestyle and use emission free autos. For me, especially when I go skiing on the weekends, not having the diesel smell or noise in the parking lots would be very nice IMHO.

I get the point you're making and I also hope that the initial launch with only 5' 10" bed is just for the start and that additional bed lengths like Rivian is exploring now in mules happens as it only makes sense that it would plus, we do have GM saying that they will be building HD models also so for there I expect 6- & 8-foot beds to be standard.

Reading the actual full study, one could come up with many questions about the facts that are stated in the full report. Costs of Fueling EVs and ICE Vehicles (2021) (andersoneconomicgroup.com) The biggest question I have is WHO REALLY PAID for the study as they do not state it, but their web site clearly states that they do these studies based on businesses paying for it. This seems to be to be a study based on what the OIL INDUSTRY is wanting to have sold to the public as they do the marketing of supporting green energy, but in reality, want to kill it since it is easier to keep drilling, destroying the environment and sell gas/oil than embrace changing over to green energy sources. While they state this in their FAQ: Did oil companies, auto manufacturers, or other interest groups pay for this study? In circumstances where an organization commissioned our work, we state that explicitly. In this case, the work was done independently. This study is the result of over 6 months of independent work by consultants at Anderson Economic Group. The company has over two decades of work for clients that include auto manufacturers, trade associations, auto dealers, labor unions, state governments, municipalities, colleges, and nonprofit organizations, including organizations that promote conservation and energy efficiency. No outside group provided support for this analysis, financial or otherwise. EV Fueling Study FAQ – Anderson Economic Group One does have to wonder what influence the OIL INDUSTRY had on this so-called independent study. Real-World Electric Vehicle Fueling Costs May Surprise New EV Drivers – Anderson Economic Group I do appreciate you posting this as it does touch on things that many will overlook, yet costs keep coming down and many states are now insisting on new homes having 220 outlets in the garage so anyone can plug in a 220V charger. Yes, I get it that if you live in old neighborhoods, old homes usually do not have a 220V outlets in the garage unless they have the washer and dryer out there.

Be it 20 oil changes or the $1,500 for a 220V wall charger, both would be written off against the business as a business expense one would assume in optimizing the profits for your business / work. A moot point IMHO.

Looks like one of those customized Clown Cars.