smk4565

23 hours ago, David said:

With all the lies of Musk and their BS FSD go ahead and buy Tesla and use it and give your life to being a beta test dummy for Musk as so many have died due to his LIES!!!

Their FSD is not Level 3 and will not be Level 4 as they have no redundancy systems that are required for those levels. Mercedes has a better system than Tesla and even then they are very much limited in how much their Level 3 in 2 states can do.

Tesla edits to give a narrow scope of what the product does, and has not shown all the problems with FSD as to why they never sell an actual working product, just you pay to be a beta tester which allows them to LIE about what FSD can actually do.

I watched FSD v. 12 live and it worked except for 1 intervention.  And v12 is in a testing phase, it isn't on sale, so no one is test dummy for that.  v12 looks like the real deal to at least a use anywhere level 3 system since it doesn't need mapped roads.  And the robo-taxi they are working on would have to be level 5, and that seems to be on the horizon for 2025-26.  

FSD v.11 that they currently have is in no way worth the $12,000 cost since it is level 2, a lot of cars have level 2 systems for way less money.

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You mean this hot mess that is still in the experimental (i.e. buggy garbage) phase that almost got Elon killed? That AI based FSD nonsense?

https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/28/23848882/elon-musk-tesla-fsd-v12-demo-red-light-zuckerberg-house

 

You would have to be out of your ever loving mind to trust AI based FSD in ANY form! They haven't even worked out the kinks in their current self driving systems but you are sitting there trying to convince everyone here that this is the way to go and that only Tesla can pull this off (version 12 AI FSD)?

I watched about a half hour of Elon being driven by the car, he had to intervene 1 time during the part I watched, and it was all neighborhoods and regular traffic, none of it was on a divided highway.  Yes it is experimental still, but it seems pretty close.  I think Tesla gets to level 4 before Mercedes does and Tesla is going to be offering this on mainstream cars, compared to Mercedes who is doing this higher up in the luxury market.

13 hours ago, David said:

Tesla FSD and GM Supercruise are both Level 2, but unlike FSD which only allows 3 minutes of hands off driving before it goes into panic mode about putting your hands back on the wheel, GM Supercruise is actually hands free driving.

Mercedes is a LIMITED Level 3 driving up to 40 mph only in Nevada and California and both states have heavy stipulations. 

Mercedes-Benz Level 3 autonomous driving first to be US certified (electrek.co)

Mercedes Preparing for Autonomous Driving in U.S. With Drive Pilot Level 3 (motortrend.com)

Full paperwork for those two states are supposedly filed, but no confirmation and Mercedes says they hope to have all of the U.S. by the end of 2023 filed so 2024 the whole U.S. will have Level 3 self driving up to 40 MPH. Yet nothing is finalized yet, so right now Mercedes can only advertise as a SAE certified Level 2 with Level 3 coming.

Mercedes might get there first, but it does not mean it will be the best. I would not say a level 3 self driving with speed limit of 40 mph is anything to brag about.

The current FSD version 11 is level 2 and that runs on lines of code like these other systems.  FSD version 12 that Elon did his livestream in the car, runs off AI and the supercomputer interpreting what the cameras see.  Thus you can drop a car anywhere on an unmapped road and set a destination and the car can still drive to it.   And it is hands free, vision free, driver doesn’t have to do anything.

That is where Tesla leapfrogs Mercedes because FSD v12 looks like a Level 4 system and that could be out before Mercedes gets level 3 under 40 mph nationwide.

Additional food for thought, the Cadillac Lyric which has the same length and width as the EV9 (though EV9 is taller), starts at $62,000 for the AWD trim and a Luxury 3 AWD is $72,000.  These are 500 hp and over 300 miles range, and come with a $7500 tax credit.

The Kia is priced higher than a Cadillac even before the $7500 credit.  I don't see the great value here in paying $7500 more than a Cadillac for a Kia.  And biggest miss ever that the Lyric wasn't a 3-row at that size, that's actually the only reason to buy the Kia over the Cadillac.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I've looked at both, and I think it is more of a content and styling difference than a size difference re 'Nox v. Blazer.

They are very close in size, which doesn't seem to make sense, when you can just offer 1 vehicle with multiple power levels and battery pack sizes.  And the Lyric is nearly as big as some 3 row SUVs but it is only a 2 row.  And the Buick and GMC versions aren't even here yet, it seems like GM wants to have 6 or 7 mid-size electric SUVs all trampling on top of each other, just like the good ole days of 5 W-body sedans that are all the same with a different grille.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Tesla FSD is PR poison right now.  GM's SuperCruise is more likely to be licensed, first by Honda most likely.

Yes, Tesla will make money on charging stations, but as soon as it becomes profitable, others (who aren't under court order) will jump in as well.

Not sure why anyone would want to license level 2 tech.  And that is just lines of code, easily copied, and Mercedes already has level 3.

Tesla is going to run off AI, having the link to the AI supercomputer is where the money will be at.  Much like the money in Google, Apple, and Microsoft is in the software.    And maybe Tesla won't license it to anyone, which gives Tesla a huge advantage vs others.

43 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You're almost making my point for me.  Toyota has twice as much equity as they have debt, and they're net positive in the $100b range with $72b cash on hand.  Though they have low debt, Tesla is relatively cash-poor with most of their equity tied up in non-cash items. Net shareholder equity is only $50b.... so a market cap of $797b on net incomes of $12b is way into the speculator zone.  There is zero way to add up to a $797b valuation with those numbers.

And how much will Tesla make off charging stations that millions of cars in the future will use?  What if Tesla licenses FSD to other car companies for $12,000 per car?  If they sell just 1 million FSD software packages, which is virtually all profit, to Toyota or Ford that is $12 billion in profit for Tesla.  
 

The money isn’t really in the cars, it is in the software and services.  That is why Tesla is with 10-20 times more than these other car companies that are loaded with legacy costs and aren’t growing.  Many car companies revenues now are worse now than they were in 2013 if you adjust for inflation.

48 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's no challenge to undercut the Ioniq 5. It should have been a Genesis Sport hatch instead.   I think they'll match it pretty close to the ID.4 if only because they'll be directly cross-shopped on size.

The Equinox EV is 9 inches longer than an iD4, 4 inches longer than a Tiguan, 7 inches longer than a gas Equinox.  Not sure why it is so big, but the Equinox EV is actually larger then a Toyota Venza or Ford Edge, so I’d call it a mid-size SUV.  Which makes me think Chevy over sized these EV’s and Equinox and Blazer are too close.

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Stock market valuation has little to do with the actual balance sheet these days.  Tesla was losing billions for years and they had crazy high valuations. Furthermore, ever since Reagan allowed companies to buy back stock, all of the companies have been manipulating their stock value.  When it comes to Assets minus Liabilities, do you really think VinFast or Tesla are above Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen?

Weather reports are far more accurate than stock valuations.

VinFast is all speculation, but Tesla has $23 billion cash on hand, about 1/3 what VW or Toyota have but Tesla is smaller and with less debt.

Tesla has a ton of growth potential, Toyota and VW have already had their peak sales years and probably neither one will get back to 10 million units a year. And most car companies have hit their volume peak, so only way to grow sales is raise prices but eventually you run out of room to do that.  

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I agree that the Ioniq 5s aren't priced appropriately, but the Ioniq 6 seems about right.  I think you'll see the price slide up significantly on the Equinox EV. The base Blazer EV has already been canceled, so much of your price guessing there is likely inaccurate.

I think the $30k Equinox never happens, but I think they can undercut the iD4, BZ4X and the Ioniq 5 in price.

7 hours ago, David said:

Stock price of Tesla is a future glimps of where the company is going.

Hyundai, Kia, Genesis is hitting EV far better than Tesla and has newer tech and models. Tesla is going to be hurting by 2025 at the rate Musk is destroying the company due to his distractions. Even stockholders are now calling for a new CEO to run Tesla.

Tesla Investor Calls for a New CEO As As Musk Shift Focus to Twitter (businessinsider.com)

Ford clearly has mis-read their own buyers which is mainly blue-collar workers and have not bought into the EV thing. GM sells to higher income folks and those more tech savvy. Ford is going to have issues over the next few years as they have not properly planned for EVs and battery production, so costs remain very high unlike GM which did plan.

At least they are not Toyota that bet on Hydrogen and lost. Korea is going to eat the Japanese auto business for EVs.

Hyundai/Kia make about $800 profit per car.  They are one of the worst car companies in the world in profit margin.  
 

Yes they make some good vehicles and are ahead of the Japanese on EV’s.  But there is a Hyundai dealer near me with several Ioniq 5/6’s on the lot with sticker prices of $58,000 that are just rotting there, I think between OEM and dealer discounts they have about $10k off sticker, but that is the only way to even try to sell those.  No one wants a $58,000 Hyundai midsize sedan.

When the $35,000 msrp Ioniq 6 arrives then game on, but GM is going to have a sub $40,000 Equinox EV that is larger than the Ioniq 5 and gets $7500 off.  I think buyers will take the Equinox at $32,500 after rebate vs $50,000 Ioniq 5.

52 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Bolt is not killed off.

The Bolt will live on as an Ultium platformed vehicle and most probably be sold at the same price it is now.

Also, the Equinox EV  is also said to be starting  at around the 30 000 mark as well.  

 

https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/equinox-ev

 

 GM WILL come back with a Bolt 2.0

The Bolt 1.0 was the only vehicle on that platform.  Then the EUV came. But still no economies of scale.  The Bolt 2.0 has 23 or 24 new EVs coming to help spread the costs of those batteries.  $100 000 plus Escalades and Silverados.  $350 000 Celestiqs.  $60 000 Lyriqs.  $50 000 Blazers and all kinds of Buicks not to mention the two Chevrolets called Bolt and Equinox @ 30K to help with those costs...   

Also...Honda will be using this platform which will also aid in keeping those costs down...  

Therefore...

GM may NOT be like others to lose money on EVs...   

Also, Tesla is NOT making the money it NEEDS  BECAUSE they DISCOUNT their EVs BECAUSE their market share is eroding.   Classic automobile scenario...      

Worthless... 

All smoke and mirrors. 

Tesla is waaaaaaaaaay OVERvalued and THAT might bite MANY people in the ass.  All kinds of investors and banks that have enjoyed the riches of OVER evaluating Tesla all these years.   ESPECIALLY if Tesla's market share keeps eroding and Tesla continues on discounting their cars.    Reailty WILL eventually settle in with Tesla's evalution...   The chickens WILL come home to roost...

I REALLY cant stress enough Tesla's need for 2nd generation of their S-3-X-Y  line-up. 

 

Refreshes mean nothing when EVERYBODY will be offering NEW shinier and BETTER products...

Take the Equinox EV for example.   Or the Honda products that are the Equinox's platform brother.   

The Bolt 2.0

The Buicks

All those and JUST from GM will give Tesla headaches. ESPECIALLY when GM products and their owners WILL be able to USE Tesla's supercharger network...  

I know the Bolt is coming back, I was only questioning whether it will be under $30k when it comes back.  And I doubt the Equinox comes in at $30k, Mary Bara is the one that said they can't make a profit on an EV that costs under $40,000.  

I agree scale will help GM, assuming, they can scale all that up, the Ultium ramp up has been pretty slow, and the Ultium platform's battery tech is behind what Tesla already has and it's heavy.  And GM isn't alone in that, Ford and Mercedes EVs are too heavy also.   

Mercedes EQE 500 is 5,670 lbs, Cadillac Lyric AWD is 5,810 lbs, and the larger Tesla Model X is 5,185 lbs.   The Lyric needs about a 600 lb weight loss, and that is in the Ultium platform.  

GM/Honda will probably have the scale to drill some cost out, but I don't see how Nissan does, or a small company like Mazda that doesn't even have an EV (since they killed off that compliance car they had) gets there.  And I don't see how Hyundai/Kia get people to spend $50-75k on EV's when their ICE cars are more like $25-40k.  They aren't even targeting their existing customers.

Tesla makes more dollars of profit than GM or Ford, let alone they have the best margins out there, plus Tesla is just as much a software and energy company as they are a car company.  Tesla already has mostly every other car company buying software off them for the chargers and using their charge network, won't be long before Tesla is selling Full Self Driving to other car companies at $12,000 per car and they'll have to pay Tesla for it just like they had to pay Tesla for their charge network.

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Only Tesla?

Everybody needs to sell $30 000 vehicles. Be it ICE or EV. 

North American consumer goods and services have gone through the roof price wise and wages have stagnated.  All those manufacturers that want to bail on affordable cars will soon find out that pricey cars will rot on their dealership lots.  And...doom their existence that much faster. 

Without straying too far away from the crux of this discussion...Tesla needs 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up.  They dont need a $30 000.  They would be going downmarket for no reason.  They have already established themselves and their image as premier EV makers.  They have established themselves in a price market where people do not think twice giving up their hard earned cash.  And that price range is $50 000-$100 000.     All Elon has to do is make sure the 2nd gen of their S-3-X-Y line-up is better than the 1st gen in every possible metric and let marketing do their job properly and they will maintian their market share quite easily.    But they need those 2nd gens right now...   Elon is foolin' around NEEDLESSLY with that Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0.   If he had thought things through and ADVANCED his EV tech INSTEAD of putting all that money and energy into Twitter/X and Mars...Tesla tech would have continued to be 10 years ahead of the competition and threats from Lucid and Rivian and GM and Volks/Porsche and the Chinese companies would have been at bay.  Cute projects like the Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0 could then be started after.  

Instead, its Ford and Dodge that truly re-imagined what the electric pick-up truck could and will be, and GM produced the concept dream poster truck  made into production toy for the rich Hummer pick-up and SUV.  And it was Rivian that swooped in with their vision the electric lifestyle offroader.    

The dream of going 0-60 in 1.9 seconds in electric style with the Roadster 2.0 has also been messed with because Elon had other things to do.  And Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette and everybody else that has entered the elctric world, be it with hybrid thought or pure electrics, they all pushed Tesla aside. 

 Ill repeat,   when Elon was selling us his visions, these electric visions of speed and innovation and re-imagining new ways and change the old ways, every other OEM on the planet had no freaken idea where to start with EV development.  

And here we are today in 2023, Elon has pissed that lead away.  And more market erosion will happen.  

Elon could price drop his current EVs, but Elon NEEDS that revenue.  He cant afford to drop those prices.  Sure, he sells more cars  this way and maintains somewhat that 50% marketshare threshold.  But monies arent coming in that Tesla DESPERATELY needs.   

100% EV makers dont have any other kind of vehicle to sell.

GM could price drop the EVs to maintain equal prices with Tesla.  But GM ALSO sells ICE.  GM has revenue coming either way.  Ditto for Ford and VW and everybody else that produces their own EVs but produces ICE as well... 

GM  has a history of 100 plus years of going toe to toe with price wars with its rivals.   What Tesla is facing now about dropping prices to maintain market share, and GM, Ford AND Stellantis...ALL of Stellantis not just Chrysler, have been through this SEVERAL times and they know that this kind of thing NEVER ends good...   Tesla is going to feel lots of pain.  

Tesla NEEDS 2nd gens of their S-3-X-Y cars.    I CANT stress that enough...   

Tesla does NOT need to sell lower priced cars IF 2nd gen of their  S-3-X-Y cars go on sale.  Tesls has THAT vehicle price range ALL to themselves.  But...they NEED those 2nd gens right now for them to continue to own that price range!!! 

Yes they all need a $30,000 EV but once the Bolt is killed off I don’t see who is going to make one outside of Tesla.  The Kia Niro EV is $40,000, the Hyundai Kona EV is $35,000 and these are entry level compacts.  Doesn’t really seem like a good deal and no $7500 credit for them.   
 

GM might come back with Bolt 2.0 at $30k but GM loses money on the Bolt, just like all these car companies outside of Tesla lose money on EV’s so I think the chances of affordable EV’s aren’t great.

And it seems like car companies want to kill the sub $30,000 ICE cars too.

And yes Elon has mad mistakes and wastes time with Twitter but at the same time his company is worth $800 billion and the other big car companies are worth about $50 billion so he must have done something right.

And back to Tesla the refresh Model 3 is on sale in China and Europe now, so we should have it next year with a Model Y refresh right after.  S and X do need a next generation and I would make them more mass market, 3 row SUV is a huge segment, but 1,000 hp 3 row SUV for $100k is not a big segment.  
 

Tesla wants to sell 20 million cars a year, they have to attack the sub $40,000 price tier to get there.  There aren’t enough $50-100k price buyers to get that kind of volume. 

What Tesla really needs is the sub $30,000 car.   Because most car companies are bailing on low end cars, Toyota's North American President even said he wanted to push the average transaction price of a Toyota over $50k.  Which to me sounds like throwing away half their customer base.  Ford wants to get rid of the Escape to focus on high margin vehicles, because after they cut cars, they now need to cut crossovers.  Mazda wants to move up market and focus on $50,000 CX-90 SUVS.  The door is wide open for someone, aka Tesla to come in with a mass market car at an affordable price.

Tesla needs the Cybertruck to ramp up production because pickups are such a huge segment so are off road vehicles.  And 3 row SUV is a huge segment, as Tesla goes mainstream they need a 3 row SUV that isn’t $80-90,000 which means either coming up with a new models or you take the S/X which in base model trim have 670 horsepower, and make less powerful, lower range versions, maybe single motor versions that get the price of those to like $59,000.  A base Model X has more horsepower than a BMW M5, you don’t really need that much to take kids to soccer practice and go to the grocery store.

The telling sign on that chart is Honda isn’t even on the board and Toyota at .5%.   Long way to go.  I think as EV prices keep dropping, $7500 credit at time of purchase and the public charging network will probably double in size by 2025, the flood gates open on EV sales in 2025-26.  Those that are ready will win, those that aren’t will lose and some of these companies will be gone in 2030.

Maybe not revolution because supply won't be there until 2025-26 probably, but I think EV sales could double easily next year.  You take $7500 off at the time of sales and that EV price looks really attractive.  Plus that is $7500 less to finance (or $4k on a used car) at a 10% interest rate over 6 years or whatever the standard car loans are now.  The interest savings on say a $32,500 loan vs a $40,000 loan, plus the gas savings that an EV has, makes it really compelling.

I know my next car will be EV.

Tesla has won.  Any car company that doesn't switch to NACS might as well close up shop and go out of business.

5 hours ago, David said:

Interesting as I have never seen this before till the Kia and never heard of it. One would have thought Mercedes would have talked about making life easier for the driver and highlight this. 

My Mercedes does it too, although I don’t use the feature.  The Cadillac Seville STS  had entry/exit mode that would move the steering column and seat up and back respectively on the 1998 model I think, I know that body style had it.

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I just googled, "vehicles where the steering wheel sets to memory" and there are vehicles from all makes and models. 

Mercedes, Lincoln, Genesis, Cadillac ATS, Chrysler/Dodge, Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc. It's basically everybody and this definitely isn't new. It's a cool feature, if you're a larger person who needs the wheel out of the way to easily get in and out of the vehicle. 

I'd assume it started on any vehicle that had an electronic steering wheel adjustment, as opposed to the manual adjustments. 

The oldest thing I could find on the "easy-entry" was a 2003 Mercedes SL.

Right, I remember the early 2000s Cadillac STS had it, at least I am 99% sure it did, it’s been a while since I was in once of those.

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Better value than the smaller EQB and its equally paltry range, minimal HP (in lower trims) and a $54K starting price. Kia won't have a problem selling this at that price. 

The EQB is over priced also, but it is a Mercedes-Benz, not a Kia.  

Kia EV6 sales are down 21% YTD through August.  12,714 units sold YTD.   This was their answer to the Model Y, it's dying on the vine already in its 2nd year on the market, while the Model Y is the #1 selling vehicle in the world.  

3 hours ago, David said:

@smk4565 It is official, the EV9 will start in RWD base at $54,900.

ALL-NEW 2024 KIA EV9 STARTS AT $54,900(1) (kiamedia.com)

QUOTE: Kia America announced today the base price for the all-new 2024 Kia EV9, Kia’s first three-row SUV EV.  Starting at just $54,900¹ (excluding destination), the EV9 Light RWD will come standard with DC fast-charging capability, roomy accommodations for up to seven passengers, full SynTex leather-trimmed seating, 19-inch alloy wheels, 8-way power adjustable driver’s seat with heating⁴ and ventilation all powered by a seamless permanent magnet synchronous electric motor that produces 215 horsepower and 258 lb.-ft. of torque.

Yeah, hard to get excited about a 223 mile range, which could mean under 200 in harsh climates and 215 hp in a 5,000+ lb SUV at that price.
 

I get that not even one needs 300 or 400 hp, or a 400 mile range.  But if they want $56k with destination for the bare bones model, the 300 mile range, AWD model is probably $66k, add options to $70k.  

This car is $10k too expensive, which can be said about every EV that isn’t a Tesla.  These guys have to figure out how to cut cost.  I bet they could trim $1,000 off in body cladding alone.

They need to do something, I feel like Nissan has basically been dead in the water since Carlos Ghosn screwed them over.  Problem is the Ariya seems allergic to sales, despite them advertising for it all the time.  Right idea to go all EV in a hurry, but I am skeptical that they actually build EV's that people want.

They need to price it like that, but let's see if they do.  I pulled pricing from a local Kia dealer, they have 4 EV6.

So it seems Kia is just building loaded models, and then dealers have to give $10k off to get these things to move, because even at $49,100, a Tesla Model Y (with tax credits too) is a much better deal.  Even the new Niro EV starts over $40k, that is more than a Cadillac CT4, CT5 or XT4 and almost as much as an XT5.  I don't know this Kia strategy of pricing cars into the luxury market is going to work.

Kia/Hyundai gained all this traction in the market because they gave great value, a stylish vehicle, a ton of equipment and it costs less than a Chevy, Toyota, Honda or Ford, plus has a longer warranty than any of them.  But their EV's aren't value at all, so the brand identity looks like it could be lost in this transition.  That EV6 is smaller than an Equinox EV that is supposed to be $30k, which it probably won't be but even at $40k, the Equinox EV is $20k under the EV6 for a bigger car.

I don't like this trend of gloss black cladding that this has, the Toyota Crown has and others have done, I think the Nissan Ariya does it too.  Looks tacky and like they are trying too hard.  Outside of that, I think she look and shape of this looks pretty good, and it looks very roomy in side so that should be a big benefit. 

Question really is what are they going to charge for this.  The Telluride is so popular because you can get a fully loaded one for like $53k, and a comparable Jeep Grand Cherokee or Grand Highlander are over $60k so Kia really wins on price.  If these are like $80,000, I don't know who wants to spend that on a Kia. 

55 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes. That is EXACTLY why I mentioned the Typhoon and Syclone with the same breath as hinting at battery electric technology and why I think that Mazda offering an inline 6 at THIS point in time to change image is too little too late. 

I am not at all surprised at GMC never again revisiting a speed performance smallish SUV and pick-up truck.  The Syclone and Typhoon were not well recieved by the public back in the day.  The concept of zero ground clearance and no hauling capacity on utilitaerian vehicles  confused people.  And GMC as a brand wasnt coveted either.  But like you said, today is a different time.  GMC has brand cachet where GMC could re-enter the realm of speed oriented CUVs and pick-ups and join the ranks of Porsche Cayennes, Lambo Urus and the like with Battery Electrics.   As you said.  

I don't think anyone is cross shopping GMC with Porsche or Lamborghini, but in terms of straight line speed everything can be fast and basically take away the advantage that the V12 expensive cars used to have over smaller cars that could only fit a turbo 4 or maybe a V6 into.  

The Hyundai Ionic 5 N has 641 hp, so the EV age means you can get small crossovers with supercar horsepower.  GMC could put out a Terrain EV with 600 hp and people would say why doesn't it have 650 to beat the Hyundai, which is stupid since all these numbers are stupid, but that is where we are at.  If the horsepower wars continue into EV's you'll see a Malibu or Equinox with 1,000 hp some day, which doesn't really make sense.  

So I hope every manufacturer does a few select crazy horsepower EV's but more importantly is who can build the affordable EV's that people will actually buy.  That Ioniq 5 N is probably a $70-75,000 car, and how many people really want a $75,000 hatchback?  90% of buyers are going to look for who can give decent range with 225 hp at a $30-35,000 price point.  

22 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

and then maybe revisit this

 

 

EV will allow them to do this.  Where as you can't fit a supercharged V8 into a GMC Terrain, you can put 2 electric motors making 500 hp in there.  You can put 500 hp in a Trax or a Bolt and have an EV that is like $30k after tax credits that can beat a $150,000 Corvette Z06 in a drag race.  EV lets you make anything fast, which will also make the performance cars of yesterday look bad. 

CAFE is basically the reason small trucks are dead, the Maverick only meets CAFE because it is a hybrid.  But in EV land, GM can bring back a small truck like a Maverick, have a 200 hp version, a 400 hp dual motor, an 800 hp quad motor if they want to.